Some questions for Mormons

[a-train]

xan,

Post 319 and 320 sound like you are saying God does not have a body of flesh and bone and that He never lived a mortal life. Is that what you believe? Do you not believe Jesus is God? You have posted repeatedly that Jesus is God.

How do you reconcile notions like 'God does not have a body of flesh and bone' with 'Jesus is God'? Or, 'God has never lived a mortal life and died' with 'Jesus is God'?

-a-train

[Misshalfway]

Why would Jesus come and show himself to the twelve in his resurrected form if he didn't have a body of flesh and bone? What would be the point of that experience? Weren't they to witness the event so they could testify to the world?

What is resurrection then if it is not the reuniting of the body and the spirit?

[skalenfehl]

Case in point about one of the points you made in your vast sea of scriptures and quotes (Don't worry, I'm really not going to address them all, though I should)......

"As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say..."- Gordon B. Hinkley...

(empasis added)

But you didn't include the entire quote:

As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. They spoke to him. He spoke with Them. He testified openly, unequivocally, and unabashedly of that great vision. It was a vision of the Almighty and of the Redeemer of the world, glorious beyond our understanding but certain and unequivocating in the knowledge which it brought. It is out of that knowledge, rooted deep in the soil of modern revelation, that we, in the words of Nephi, "talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that [we and] our children may know to what source [we] may look for a remission of [our] sins"

[xanmad33]

Is Jesus NOT our Father in Heaven?

Jesus is our father, he is the one and only God, though not our literal father

Is He not exalted?

define "exalted" and what you mean by it

He lived without sin, also he was born of a virgin.

Did He not pass through life and death?

I don't think I would call it "pass" through life and death. He was always alive and always will be

Does He not have a Father in Heaven like us?

He is the Lord, and he and the father are one.

Do we not have any promise from Him that we may become like Him?

Not like him in deity, but like him in attributes, God intends to work in us, with us, and on us until we fully reflect the spirit and character of Jesus.

Are not these questions answered plainly in the Bible?

yes they are but you and I have different meanings for the same words sometimes

And, just so we are perfectly clear: Does God (Jesus) have a body of flesh and bone?

God is spirit,so no but if he wants one he can certainly have one

You can ignore these questions and me all you want. But when I am long gone, the answers to these questions will still be just as important.

-a-train

[xanmad33]

Is this not part of your beliefs?

the literal offspring of God the Father and one of His heavenly wives. According to Mormon theology, God the Father, Elohim, dwells on a planet with His many spirit wives producing numerous spirit children who await to inhabit physical bodies so that they too may one day ascend to godhood as their parents did. Jesus is believed to be the firstborn spirit child of Elohim. The Doctrine and Covenants, one of the four sacred books of Mormonism states, "Christ, the Firstborn, was the mightiest of all the spirit children of the Father."{1} The Gospel Principles, which is the manual of the Mormon Church, states, "The first spirit born to our heavenly parents was Jesus Christ."{2} James Talmage, one of the early apostles of the church wrote, "[A]mong the spirit-children of Elohim, the firstborn was and is Jehovah or Jesus Christ to whom all others are juniors."{3}

sounds like Jesus was created to me?

[skalenfehl]

Again, context. If nobody's addressed the above post, I'll address it tomorrow. It's late and I gotta work early. I wish you would post things completely from our books and in the same context. It makes the discussion more harmonious. See my previous post with your incomplete quote from President Hinckley.

Good night. :)

[xanmad33]

Jesus body from resurrection to ascension was in no way different from his body before the resurrection

[Dr T]

Xanmad33 said,

Not like him in deity, but like him in attributes, God intends to work in us, with us, and on us until we fully reflect the spirit and character of Jesus.

That is a great quote! Thank you for that :)

[Dale]

Xan-I see Isa. passages ect as presenting many contradictions to the New Testament idea of the persons. I see New Testament writers as not believing in the latin word persona. I see no reason to believe they believed anything like it. So i accept they considered the one God was composed of what would know today as three modern persons. A heretic who accepted God and Christ as two persons would simply camo-flauge their heresy in the language of mono-theism. So to me since i cannot find the creedal definitions of persons Biblical i confess they simply split the God of the Bible into two Gods. So i see the New Testament idea of God as mixing in a social Trinity with strict mono-theistic ideas that can never harmonize. The creedal writers tried an failed to do it with persona.

I simply feel Jesus pretended to be the exclusive God with the Father in the Old Testament. So that when speaking for the Father as his agent he would pretend to have no personality of his own. I would not get that idea from reading Isaiah passages. They do teach the exclusiveness of God. My testimony of God and Christ being two distinct persons comes from a careful study of the New Testament. I just confess the Bible mixes mono-theism with tri-theism and extend no time trying to explain away the contradictions in Gods word.

I see the New Testament claiming a lot "We are mono-theists just like you." "But by the way this one God is composed of Father and Son." I know its blasphemy, but maybe God and Christ got tired of pretending to be the same person as they did in Isaiah.

To me the only way to avoid poly-theism is to accept the idea of the Trinity, or equivocate on Jesus Deity. Since i reject the creedal idea of persons the 1st option is out for me as a serious option. I am more open to equivocating on Jesus Deity option than accepting the Trinity. But i confess scripture does not do that. So not seeing a need to be a strict mono-theist i simply confess the New Testament departs from strict mono-theism.

Certainly i am well aware of monotheistic proof-texts from the Old and New Testaments. I just feel those scriptures that teach the three are distinct persons split the one God of the Bible into two Gods. I cannot look at one mono-theistic proof text and not see the persons of God. I doubt Paul believed the meaning of a word like persona, or anything like it. So his idea of one God the Father and only Lord Jesus to me simply split the God of the Bible into two modern persons.

I spent a lot of time with you on the latin word persona for a reason. The reason being is the meaning of the word person is very important. It can mean human persons. It can mean God as a person. It can mean the persons the actor God plays in the drama of history. Depending on what definition, Paul, Jesus, James, ect had in mind when calling God persons would effect whether they can be viewed as strict mono-theists, or not.

[Dale]

Lastly, here is a good read regarding the priesthood authority, and what the Bible has to say:

"Jesus was not merely another in succession of priests, but His priesthood was unique. There had not been one like it before, and there will not be one like it again. His priesthood is the climax and culmination of priesthood before God.

Why was Jesus' priesthood unique? According to the Bible:

Jesus' priesthood is superior due to a better calling. Other priests were chosen, but Jesus was called with an oath (Heb. 5:5; 7:21). God, who could swear by no greater than Himself, proclaimed Jesus to be a priest after the order of Melchizedek.

Jesus' priesthood is superior due to a better covenant (Heb. 7:22; 8:6; 9:15). God found fault with the old covenant in that it could not accomplish the salvation of Israel. So He made a new covenant, and Jesus is the mediator of that covenant (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5-6).

Jesus' priesthood is superior due to a better sacrifice (Heb. 9:11ff). Those who served in the Levitical priesthood offered sacrifices annually according to commandment. Those sacrifices did not serve to put away sin. Jesus, however, by one sacrifice, forever put away sin, and now sits at God the Father's right hand (Heb. 9:24ff; 10:12).

Jesus' priesthood is unique due to an indestructible life (Heb.7:16). Many men over several centuries served in the Levitical priesthood, yet none of them could continue because of death (Heb. 7:23-25).

Furthermore, the Bible states that all Christians are now priests:

"You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation" (1 Peter 2:9).

"You also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood" (1 Peter 2:5).

The believer-as-a-priest concept is important because in other religions a priest serves as an essential intermediary between man and God. A fundamental uniqueness of Christianity is that Jesus abolished this:

"For there is one God and one mediator also between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim.2:5).

"Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins" (Heb 10:11), but "He [Jesus], having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time" (Heb. 10:12) "has perfected for all time those who are sanctified" (Heb. 10:14) so that "There is no longer any offering for sin" (Heb. 10:18).

Therefore, the Bible says that "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us through His Son" (Heb. 1:1).

This is the topic i am studying in my Mormonism Unmasked book. So i will share my thoughts about the issue.

Psalm 110:4 is a coronation Psalm. It is not directly about Jesus, or Melchizedek, but an anointed Davidic king. Psalms contemplates a succession of priest kings. Of the order of Melchizedek Saul, David, Solomon, and Jesus shared the order of Melchizedek. I see nothing in Hebrews that prevents more priest/kings from being called to that order.

With Hebrews 7:11,12 i do not see it as saying the Levitical priesthood was brought to an end. The Priesthood was still around after Paul had made the statement. The book is silent on what the ultimate fate of that priesthood would be. Certainly them continuing to offer sacrifices was unecessary. But Melchizedek keeps his priesthood although he does not offer sacrifice these days. (Hebrews 7:3)

With men other than Jesus, and Melchizedek holding that priesthood was changed long before Jesus got it. This was at the same time the Levitical priesthood was operating. So perfection was never by the Levitical priesthood. But God kept it around inspite of other priests arising after the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:23-25. Some in the Melchizedek priesthood died like Saul, David Solomon. They offered sacrifices and God had no problem with that. I suppose like Jesus Saul might be able to get his priesthod back in the resurrection. I really doubt David and Solomon can.

1 Timothy 2:5 should be read with verse 1. It allows us to do acts of mediation with Christ for other men as believers. I do not see it as preventing earthly priesthood doing similar things.

Priesthood of believers-1 Peter 2:5,9 should be read with Exodus 19:6. Israel was called a kingdom of priests at the same time a ministerial priesthood existed.

Unlike R. Philip Roberts i felt he had no case for an end to mortal priesthood. Certainly priesthood would have to be revamped to so that priests could no longer have to sacrifice. This is the status of Melchizedeks priesthood function these days.

[Elgama]

Why would Jesus come and show himself to the twelve in his resurrected form if he didn't have a body of flesh and bone? What would be the point of that experience? Weren't they to witness the event so they could testify to the world?

What is resurrection then if it is not the reuniting of the body and the spirit?

And why the make the point that He brake bread with them?

[Guest Leeanntheonetwo]

There are so many doctrinal differences between Mormons and Christians I could be here all week defining them so instead of listing all pf them, I have decided to focus on what I personally believe to be the most important; The Nature of God, or "gods", Jesus, and the Holy Spirit...

------------------------

I must say Miss x;I have just read your last three posts and you have done your homework. I see by what you write that you have put a lot of time and effort into this post. I don’t want to follow up with what I believe because I can see from what you write that you already know what I believe. I promised myself that if you response to my request to prove that there is differences between the book of Mormon and the Bible I would humble myself. And look at the truth that is in my hand one more time and compare it to what you have to say to see if what I have is really the truth. I learned to think like this from the story when Jesus told the teachers of the law that He was the Son of God and they didn’t believe Him.

I asked myself why they didn’t believe Jesus when He claimed to be the Son of God. So I prayed and asked our Heavenly Father why the Teachers of the Law didn’t believe Jesus’ report.

That night our Heavenly Father told me why in a dream. At the end of the dream He spoke to me. He said; “Read all of Luke chapter 7”.

It is here that we find the answer to why the teachers of the law and much of Israel didn’t recognise their Messiah when He came. And as our Heavenly Father told me; for the exact same reason the Jews missed their Messiah many Christians will miss the Messiah. And also we will miss truth when it’s right in front of us.

While John the Baptizer was in prison he sent two of his followers to Jesus to ask him if He was the One who was coming or should we wait for someone else.

Jesus said to John’s followers; “Go and tell the things that you saw and heard here. The blind can see. The crippled can walk. People with harmful skin disease are healed. The deaf can hear and the dead are raised to life. The good news is told to the poor.

John 7:24-29

24 “When John’s followers left, Jesus began to tell the people about John;

“What did you see when you went into the desert? A reed blown by the wind

25 “What did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No. People who have fine clothes live in Kings Palaces.

26 “But what did you go out to see? A prophet Yes and I tell you, John is more than a prophet.

27 “This was written about John; I will send my messenger ahead of you. He will prepare the way for you.

29 “When the people heard this, they all agreed that God’s teaching was good. Even the tax collectors agreed. These were the people who were already baptized by John.”

The following is what our Heavenly Father revealed to me in a dream.

The answer to our question as to why the Jews missed their Messiah in found in the last half of verse twenty nine. Go back and read the last half of verse of 29 once more.

“These are the people who were already baptised by John”

John would not baptize anyone who did not repent therefore...

The people who had eyes to see and ears to hear were the people that John prepared to receive or recognize Jesus when He came. All those who were ready for Jesus to come the first time were ready as a result of obeying John’s cry for repentance. John’s mission in life was to prepare the way of the Lord, to make His path strait, to remove any hindrances from off the road so that the path that leads to Jesus is abundantly clear.

Mark 1:4

4 “John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins”.

Now let us read verse thirty for it is here we find confirmation that all those who answered John’s call to repent had their spiritual eyes opened and as a result would be able to recognize Jesus when He came. We are talking about the principle of why some were able to recognize truth and why most could not recognize truth.

V 30 “But the Pharisees and teachers of the law refused to accept God’s plan for them. They did not let John baptize them”.

The people who did not receive or recognize Jesus when He came were the ones who would not repent and be baptized. Repentance was and still is God’s plan for mankind. Please allow me to paraphrase what our Heavenly Father could have instructed John to do. This is our Heavenly Fathers plan for our life even to this day.

The Father sent John and told him;

“You call the people to repentance; you will know who has truly repented because I will show you. When you see someone who has sincerely turned from their sins then I want you to baptise them in water. This speaks of their death to sin and when they come up from underneath the water this speaks of the new life in Me that I will give to them. John, you do your part and I will do my part. You call them to repent and baptize all tem who will obey and when they come up from underneath the water I will open their spiritual eyes so they will recognise my Son when He comes”.

Our Father is asking all of us to do what John the Baptise asked the Pharisees and the teachers of the law to do over two thousand years ago. The Pharisees and the Teachers of the law were very much like we are today, not much had changed, and most of us think we have a handle on the truth. This attitude makes us un-teachable. Pride always goes before a fall. The truth is I only thought that I knew why the Jews missed their day of visitation. Then one day I humbled myself and ask our Heavenly Father and He told me. Ever since our Heavenly Father has taught me that repentance brings us to a state of true humility I have endeavoured to humble my -self at all times. If this is what it takes to gain the truth then I will learn all that I can about true humility.

I have learned to take another look at the truth that is in my hand and consider if it really is the truth and I believe that is what x is asking us to do also. I don’t believe like some have assumed that X is trying to convert us or stop us from being Mormons. No! X is only asking us to take a look at what she sees as the truth.

I have been reading the posts and most are fuelled with emotionalism and stuff that many of us have been taught from birth.

Can we please be a little more objective, humble, honest and just see if there are differences between the Book of Mormon and the Bible, please?

My main point is I see the very clear differences x has revealed between the book of Mormon and the Bible and I think we should hear her conclusions. I don’t think for one minute that x thinks we are devil worshipers so please who ever said this please get real. She is a Christian just like us. Let us learn what makes us different and why. Let us all humble are selves and give some truth with love and receive some truth with love. I don’t really believe we can do this but let’s give it a try. If we say we love God then let us show our love to X. She is not attacking us so let’s not attack her, ok?

Remember, objective, humble and honest responses given in the love. The way to gain truth is to Humble ourselves before our Heavenly Father and our brothers and sisters. I am willing to listen and learn all that I can from whoever has truth how about you?

Love,

Leeann

[WillowTheWhisp]

He lived without sin, also he was born of a virgin.

I don't think I would call it "pass" through life and death. He was always alive and always will be

Ironically these two statements are both where I agree and where I disagree with you. The first one is where I disagree because Jesus certainly did pass through life and death - Paul says that if it were not so then what the heck would he be preaching about? He was preaching the crucified and resurrected Christ. He was born, lived as we do and died.

However, your second statement is perfectly in harmony with LDS beliefs that Jesus did indeed exist before his birth, just as we all existed before our birth on earth, and I'm sure all Christians agree on the fact that he is still alive today. He was resurrected and ascended to Heaven

He is the Lord, and he and the father are one.

This is where we differ. And where what we believe is Biblical and what you believe isn't. This idea that Jesus and heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost are all the same person is not Biblical. Jesus did not teach it. He spoke to his Father in prayer. At one point he even pleaded with his Father if there could be any other way than to go through the atonement - yet submitted himself to his Father by ending saying 'not my will but thine' - that just would not make sense if they were both the same person.

So, yes you are correct when you say that we do not believe the same things. It just puzzles us how other Christians can read the Bible and yet believe things that the Bible does not teach.

Not like him in deity, but like him in attributes, God intends to work in us, with us, and on us until we fully reflect the spirit and character of Jesus.

Yes, I agree with the second part of that. In this life we strive, with the help of the Holy Ghost, to become more Christlike.

yes they are but you and I have different meanings for the same words sometimes

God is spirit,so no but if he wants one he can certainly have one

Here we disagree because I do believe that God has a body. I believe that the misunderstanding people have of this come from the fact that the Holy Ghost does not (yet) have a body.

I also think that misunderstanding of the fact that there are 3 individuals in the Godhead stems from the fact that in the pre-existence Jesus was Jehovah whereas people think that Jehovah in the Old Testament is Heavenly Father - so when they see Jesus referring to himself in a way which indicates that he is Jehovah they think that he is meaning he is Heavenly Father, which if you read the NT with an open mind it is quite clear that he isn't.

You said that you came here to ask questions xanmad and yet in post after post you continue to tell us that we are wrong and that you are right. Surely you must understand that we are never going to accept this because those of us who have a strong testimony of the truth are never going to be swayed from it. Your interpretation of the Bible is not the same as ours. I can actually understand where you are coming from because I was there once too. In fact there was a time when I was going to the Baptist Church that I felt I could 'save' the poor misguided Mormons. But the more I learned and the more I studied, the more I understood and the more I understood the Bible the more it all makes sense. The things I once thought were true just don't make sense at all.

If our responses sometimes sound arrogant perhaps that can be forgiven by realising that we are passionate about what we know to be true.

If you disagree with our beliefs than I respect your right to do so, but please do not keep telling us that we are wrong.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

I have heard many times that you "know" that your prophet is true because of a feeling, and I have challenged that belief using the Bible. (The Bible you claim to believe in)

If one were to do a comparative investigation of The BOM and the Bible and other Mormon books of doctrine, the evidence FOR the Bible is astonishing!

I have used reason to argue these points, not emotion.

I am appealing to logic.

See, this is the issue here. Logic. Logic doesn't work for finding God. Look back to the time that you remember, when you realized that God truly exists. What was your feeling? What were your impressions? What was your reasoning?

Now, there was no reasoning, was there? You just knew, unmistakably. You go one moment of not being sure, then all of a sudden you realize as you are reading the Bible that God is real. That He has given you a Bible to seek Him. You remember being told, in your mind, to use the Bible to find God, and to learn for yourself His word. So that is what you are doing now, you are learning His word by studying the Bible and going to different sources that might have interpretations for scriptures.

I think with a lot of logic. However, for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith. Logic didn't really work. I thought about it and thought about it, but I didn't truly believe anything until I gained faith and tried to learn it through faith rather than my brains and my logic. When I started to exercise faith, I was given the truth from the Holy Ghost, in small degrees.

I'll tell you now, there is no way to learn the will of God through logic. You learn it through revelation. Revelation from the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and ultimately the Holy Ghost.

Believe me, I tried and it didn't work. If you truly want to understand us, then use your faith and ask God if these things are true. That is the only way we know them to be true. At some time in your life, you got the same impression about the Bible that we did about the Book of Mormon(and Bible). Galatians 5:22-23, If you feel these feelings(probably not the first time. You have to demonstrate that you are serious when you are askng) then they are true. It is very simple.

Men can be proven wrong with logic, because men reason and use logic to gather their conclusions.. God cannot be proven wrong or false because He is, and He reveals, He does not reason with men, He reveals to men.

There is nothing greater in this whole system of revealed religion, than the pure, unadulterated fact that it is true. Because it is true it will save a Human soul, Because it is true, it will prevail. It's true because it's true.

[Elgama]

Jesus body from resurrection to ascension was in no way different from his body before the resurrection

It was different enough people who saw Him didn't recognize Him until he spoke I actually have Jewish friends who suggest its because it wasn't Jesus it was an imposter.

I have heard many times that you "know" that your prophet is true because of a feeling, and I have challenged that belief using the Bible. (The Bible you claim to believe in)

If one were to do a comparative investigation of The BOM and the Bible and other Mormon books of doctrine, the evidence FOR the Bible is astonishing!

I have used reason to argue these points, not emotion.

I am appealing to logic.

When it comes to Latter Day Saints that is the problem logic is not that important - our relationship with God teaches us that He is truly beyond most of our comprehensions. But using logic you cannot challenge our belief with the Bible because the Bible is incomplete without that relationship with God, you are arguing with something that for us is not the full story. I personally expect my scripture to contradict because as you grow things you understood before and change - my first lecture in Physics at university I was told to forget what I had learned at school because it would be very different and not really relevant to what we would learn at degree level it was a good grounding but our understanding was about to move up a peg. Physics is very similar to religion in that it is trying to understand the World and Universe around us and its origins. When I studied history the facts I knew at school became theories and interpretations changed. Whilst scripture doesn't contradict if it doesn't seem to us to have some level of conflict i it is at the same time to be too Complex and too Simple to be the God I know - I have conflicts in my beliefs some of which will not go until I meet Him and some may remain througout eternity because God will always be greater than I

I am going to break a habit and actually quote some scripture which is coming to mind here its from the Book of Mormon I just hope I don't feel awful having done it.

3 Nephi 11 is one of the most beautiful passages of scripture - it is more than anything to me than any other book of scripture can contain and when I read it my testimony grew (much the same way X I suspect your faith does when reading the Bible)

3 And it came to pass that while they were thus conversing one with another, they heard a avoice as if it came out of heaven; and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard; and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a bsmall voice it did cpierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul, and did cause their hearts to burn.

4 And it came to pass that again they heard the voice, and they aunderstood it not.

5 And again the third time they did hear the voice, and did aopen their ears to hear it; and their eyes were towards the sound thereof; and they did look steadfastly towards heaven, from whence the sound came.

6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them:

7 Behold my aBeloved Son, bin whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name—hear ye him.

8 And it came to pass, as they understood they cast their eyes up again towards heaven; and behold, they asaw a Man bdescending out of heaven; and he was clothed in a white robe; and he came down and stood in the midst of them; and the eyes of the whole multitude were turned upon him, and they durst not open their mouths, even one to another, and wist not what it meant, for they thought it was an angel that had appeared unto them.

9 And it came to pass that he stretched forth his hand and spake unto the people, saying:

10 Behold, I am Jesus Christ, whom the prophets testified shall come into the world.

- that is to me the Word of God at its most powerful and it speaks to me as clearly as it did to the Nephites at the time.

-Charley

[a-train]

Jesus is our father, he is the one and only God, though not our literal father.

If the term 'literal' is to make a distinction between His being our eternal life giver and the father of our mortal bodies or our spirits, then I understand. But you do recognize that He literally gives eternal life and that in that sense He is our Father in Heaven. Correct?

define "exalted" and what you mean by it

Raised or elevated, as in rank or character. (English definition, are there other definitions?) Is there a definition of 'exalted' that we can NOT apply to Jesus?? What definition of 'exalted' are you reluctant to attribute to Him?... ...especially in light of Paul's words: 'Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.' (Hebrews 2:8)???

Some verses for use of the term 'exalted' in context:

'This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.' (Acts 2:32-33)

'The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.' (Acts 5:30-31)

'But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.' (Philippians 2:7-11)

Is Jesus NOT exalted? Did He not rise from the grave and ascend to His throne?

He lived without sin, also he was born of a virgin.

Not only this, but He healed the sick, raised the dead, was crucified for the sins of the world, and did rise from the grave on the third day. But does this somehow change the fact that He lived a mortal life on this earth? Do you believe that Jesus was born on this earth as an infant and grew to manhood?

I don't think I would call it "pass" through life and death. He was always alive and always will be.

I'll rephrase the question: Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth died?

He is the Lord, and he and the father are one.

So you are saying He DOES have a Father?

Not like him in deity, but like him in attributes, God intends to work in us, with us, and on us until we fully reflect the spirit and character of Jesus.

You do understand that Mormons do NOT believe they will ever take God's place or be independent of Him correct? So if I said: 'God wants us to become as He is, or like Him.' This would not be an incorrect statement. Right?

The antis make a big stink about 'becoming like God'. They twist the whole matter and pretend that Mormons believe in something they do not. They act like Mormons believe that there will come a time that they will no longer need the LORD nor be subject to Him. This is flatly FALSE.

Let me address this subject of 'deification'. Let me try to put this right in your mind. Do you believe those that overcome this world through the blood of Christ will sit with Him in His throne just as He sits with His Father in His throne?

yes they are but you and I have different meanings for the same words sometimes

If someone told you that Mormons use some secret dictionary, that is false. We use the same english terms with the same definitions from the same dictionaries as everyone else.

God is spirit,so no but if he wants one he can certainly have one

No?

'And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.' (1 John 4:3)

Did Jesus of Nazareth get a body or not? I believe that God can have whatever He wants, but that is not what I am asking. The New Testament is full of the notion that Jesus has a body. What did the Virgin bare? What did our LORD's persecutors torture? What did they hang on the cross? What did Joseph of Arimathaea request from Pilate? What did Pilate deliver? What did Joseph wrap in the linen cloth and place in the tomb? What rose from the tomb? What did the disciples see and feel and give witness of? Was it not the body of flesh and bone, the physical tabernacle of our LORD Jesus?

Do you believe that Jesus lost that body some time between the resurrection and today? What scriptural basis do we have for such a notion? Am I mis-reading you? Can a person claim to be a Christian and deny Christ's physical existance? I can thinking of nothing less biblical than the saying that God has no body of flesh and bone. I will allow you to clarify your answer. Does God (Jesus) have a body of flesh and bone?

-a-train

[xanmad33]

Ironicall

Show me all your proofs IN THE BIBLE , as I have clearly laid out post after post with Biblical proofs.

Instead of telling me Im wrong, why dont you do as I have done and SHOW me I'm wrong.

Please everyone go back and read all the verses I provided that refer to God the father as God as Jesus as The Holy Spirit, there were a lot!

If there were 3 seperate gods, then 2 of them have been lying in the Bible.

[xanmad33]

See, this is the issue here. Logic. Logic doesn't work for finding God. Look back to the time that you remember, when you realized that God truly exists. What was your feeling? What were your impressions? What was your reasoning?

We have both already supposedly "found" God already correct?

Now because we both ALREADY BELIEVE, we can reason with the claims of Joseph Smith, and logically ask our selves some questions with regard to the Bible.

I have laid out a lot of those questions and you havent answered any of them.

Did God lie in the Bible in my posts that show the father, son and Holy spirit calling themselves the "only God"

Now, there was no reasoning, was there? You just knew, unmistakably. You go one moment of not being sure, then all of a sudden you realize as you are reading the Bible that God is real. That He has given you a Bible to seek Him. You remember being told, in your mind, to use the Bible to find God, and to learn for yourself His word. So that is what you are doing now, you are learning His word by studying the Bible and going to different sources that might have interpretations for scriptures.

I think with a lot of logic. However, for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith. Logic didn't really work. I thought about it and thought about it, but I didn't truly believe anything until I gained faith and tried to learn it through faith rather than my brains and my logic. When I started to exercise faith, I was given the truth from the Holy Ghost, in small degrees.

I'll tell you now, there is no way to learn the will of God through logic. You learn it through revelation. Revelation from the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and ultimately the Holy Ghost.

Believe me, I tried and it didn't work. If you truly want to understand us, then use your faith and ask God if these things are true. That is the only way we know them to be true. At some time in your life, you got the same impression about the Bible that we did about the Book of Mormon(and Bible). Galatians 5:22-23, If you feel these feelings(probably not the first time. You have to demonstrate that you are serious when you are askng) then they are true. It is very simple.

Men can be proven wrong with logic, because men reason and use logic to gather their conclusions.. God cannot be proven wrong or false because He is, and He reveals, He does not reason with men, He reveals to men.

There is nothing greater in this whole system of revealed religion, than the pure, unadulterated fact that it is true. Because it is true it will save a Human soul, Because it is true, it will prevail. It's true because it's true.

I have gone back and forth because I can never get the same answer here.

One person believes something and askes me questions and one person believes something completely different. So naturally, my argument is different for everyone I am speaking to but I think if you go back to the beginning and consider all the array of questions I've been asked you would see how many different ways I have argued the same points.

One minute the Bible is flawed, so then it doesn't matter.

Next minute you believe everything in the BIble

Well to asses the Bible alone and what it says with regard to the claims of the Mormon church we need to take a look at those scriptures and I do believe we need to apply some logic, when determining claims made contrary the the BIble, and investigating to see, can those arguments be reconciled with what God has said about himself?

[xanmad33]

I feel these are very important verses, and some of you may not have read or considered them:

This is to show that the Holy Spirit is also God...

The first verse is a reference to God, the second is a reference to the Holy Spirit

Who gives eternal life? Proverbs 19:23 Ezekiel 37:14, John 6:63, Romans 8:2, 8:6, 11, 13, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Galatians 6:8

Who gives grace? Psalms 84:11 Zechariah 12:10, Hebrews 10:29

Who gives power and authority to man? Psalms 68:35 Micah 3:8, Acts 1:8, 20:28 Romans 15:19, 1 Corinthians 2:4, Ephesians 3:16, 4:3, 1 Thessalonians 1:5

Who has authority and power? 1 Chronicles 29:11 Micah 3:8, Luke 1:35, 4:14, Romans 15:13, 19, Ephesians 3:16

Who has glory? Isaiah 40:5 2 Corinthians 3:8

Who is eternal? Genesis 21:33 John 14:16, Hebrews 9:14

Who is Holy? 1 Samuel 2:2 Romans 1:4

Who is omnipresent Jeremiah 23:24 Psalms 139:7

Who is omniscient? 1 John 3:20 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11

Who is our Father? Isaiah 63:16 Matthew 10:20

Who is our Savior? Isaiah 43:11, 45:21, Psalms 62:2, 6, Hosea 13:4 Romans 8:11-15, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30

Who is the Creator? Genesis 1:31, Isaiah 44:24, Nehemiah 9:6, Mark 13:19, Revelation 4:11 Genesis 1:2, Job 33:4, Psalms 104:30

Who is the truth? Psalms 31:5, Isaiah 65:16 John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13, 1 John 5:7

Who is the way or path? Psalms 16:11 Judges 13:25, 1 Samuel 11:6, 16:13, Isaiah 63:14, Psalms 143:10, Romans 8:14, Galatians 5:16, 2 Peter 1:21

Who resurrected Jesus? Acts 4:10 Romans 8:11

Who resurrects the dead? Acts 26:8 Romans 8:11

Who sent the prophets? Jeremiah 7:25 Numbers 11:25, 26, 29, 24:2, 1 Samuel 10:6, 10, 19:20, 23, Joel 2:28, Zechariah 7:12, Matthew 22:43, John 16:13, Acts 2:17, 11:28, 19:6, Ephesians 3:5, 1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 9:8, 1 Peter 1:11, 2 Peter 1:21

Whom are we to worship? Exodus 34:14 Philippians 3:3

[xanmad33]

here are some verses to clarify that Jesus is fully divine

Who is omnipotent (all powerful)? -GOD--1 Chronicles 29:11 --JESUS--Philippians 3:20-21

Who is omniscient (all knowing)? -GOD---1 John 3:20--JESUS-- Colossians 2:2-3

Who is omnipresent (present everywhere)?GOD-- Proverbs 15:3 JESUS--2 Corinthians 2:14

Who is Lord of Sabbath? GOD--Genesis 2:3 --JESUS--Matthew 12:8

Who is the great "I am?" GOD--Exodus 3:14 -JESUS--John 8:58

Who is the only creator?--GOD-- Isaiah 44:24 JESUS-- John 1:3

Who is the only savior? --GOD--Isaiah 43:11, JESUS--45:21 Acts 4:12

Who will judge mankind?--GOD-- Isaiah 3:13, 14 -JESUS--2 Corinthians 5:10

Who will judge between the sheep and goats?GOD-- Ezekiel 34:17 JESUS--Matthew 25:31-33

Who sent the prophets? GOD--Jeremiah 7:25 JESUS--Matthew 23:34

Who resurrected Jesus? GOD--Acts 4:10 JESUS--John 10:17-18

Who is "coming in glory?" GOD--Isaiah 40:5 JESUS--Matthew 24:30

Who is our Father? GOD--Isaiah 63:16 JESUS--Isaiah 9:6

Who is the "first and last?"GOD-- Isaiah 44:6 JESUS--Revelation 1:17

Who is Rock of salvation? GOD--2 Samuel 22:32 JESUS--1 Corinthians 10:4

Who is Stone of stumbling? GOD--Isaiah 8:13-15 JESUS--1 Peter 2:8

"One crying in the wilderness" came to prepare a way for whom? GOD--Isaiah 40:3 JESUS--Matthew 3:3

Who is eternal? GOD--Genesis 21:33 JESUS-- Micah 5:2

Who is the fountain of living waters?GOD-- Jeremiah 17:13 JESUS--John 4:10-14

Who resurrects the dead? GOD--Acts 26:8 JESUS--John 6:40

Who gives rewards to man? GOD--Isaiah 40:10 JESUS--Matthew 16:27

Who has all authority and power? GOD--1 Chronicles 29:11 JESUS--Matthew 28:18

Who gives power and authority to man? GOD--Psalms 68:35 JESUS--Luke 9:1

Who forgives sin? GOD--2 Chronicles 7:14 JESUS--Matthew 9:6

Who sent the Holy Spirit? GOD--John 14:16 JESUS--John 16:7

Who has the greatest name? GOD--Nehemiah 9:5 JESUS--Philippians 2:9

Whom are we to worship? GOD--Exodus 34:14 JESUS--Revelation 5:12-13

Who is the good Shepherd? GOD--Genesis 48:15 JESUS--John 10:14

Who searches for the lost sheep of Israel? GOD--Ezekiel 34:11 JESUS--Matthew 15:24

Who is "Lord of Lords?" GOD--Deuteronomy 10:17 JESUS--Revelation 17:14

To whom shall every knee bow? GOD--Isaiah 45:22-23 JESUS--Philippians 2:10

Who is the righteous branch of David? GOD--Jeremiah 23:5-6 JESUS--Jeremiah 33:15

Who alone is Holy? GOD--1 Samuel 2:2 JESUS--Acts 3:14

Whose blood cleanses us? GOD--Acts 20:28 JESUS--1 John 1:7

The world was created for whom? GOD--Proverbs 16:4 JESUS--Colossians 1:16

Who is above all? GOD--Nehemiah 9:6 JESUS--Romans 9:5

Who is forever the same? GOD--Psalms 102:24-27 JESUS--Hebrews 1:8-12

Who is our light? Psalms GOD--27:1 JESUS--John 8:12

Who is the way or path? GOD--Psalms 16:11 JESUS--John 14:6

Who is in charge of the angels? GOD--Psalms 103:20 JESUS--2 Thessalonians 1:7

Who gives us rest? GOD--Exodus 33:14 JESUS--Matthew 11:28

Who gives eternal life? GOD--Proverbs 19:23 JESUS--John 3:36

We are the bride of whom? GOD--Isaiah 54:5 JESUS--2 Corinthians 11:2

Who tests the heart and mind? GOD--Jeremiah 17:10 JESUS--Revelation 2:23

[xanmad33]

Here is scripture showing that The Father is also God

Like the last posts, the first verse is God, the second verse is reference to the Father...

To whom shall every knee bow? Isaiah 45:22-23 Ephesians 3:14

Who forgives sin? 2 Chronicles 7:14 Matthew 6:14, 15, Luke 23:34

Who gives eternal life? Proverbs 19:23 John 12:50

Who gives power and authority to man? Psalms 68:35 Luke 24:49, Acts 1:7, 1 Corinthians 15:24, Revelation 2:27

Who gives rewards to man? Isaiah 40:10 Matthew 6:1, 4, 6, John 12:26

Who has all authority and power? 1 Chronicles 29:11 Matthew 11:25, Acts 1:7

Who has glory? Isaiah 40:5 Matthew 16:27, Mark 8:38, John 14:13, 15:8, 17:5, Romans 6:4, 15:6, Ephesians 1:17, Philippians 2:11, 4:20

Who has the greatest name? Nehemiah 9:5 John 12:28

Who is called God? 1 Kings 8:60, Psalms 118:27 Psalms 89:26

Who is eternal? Genesis 21:33 Isaiah 63:16

Who is Holy? 1 Samuel 2:2 Matthew 6:9, Luke 11:2, John 17:11

Who is in charge of the angels? Psalms 103:20 Matthew 26:53

Who is in Heaven? Deuteronomy 4:39, 10:14 Matthew 5:16, 45, 48, 6:9, 14, 7:21

Who is Jesus? Jeremiah 23:5-6 John 14:7

Who is omnipotent Matthew 18:19, John 10:29, Ephesians 4:6

Who is omniscient 1 John 3:20 1 Peter 1:2

Who is one? Deuteronomy 6:4 Matthew 23:9

Who is our Father? Isaiah 63:16 Psalms 89:26

Who is our light? Psalms 27:1 Colossians 1:12, James 1:17

Who is our savior? Isaiah 43:11, 45:21 Isaiah 63:16

Who is perfect? Deuteronomy 32:4 Matthew 5:48

Who is Rock of salvation? 2 Samuel 22:32 Psalms 89:26

Who is the creator? Isaiah 44:24 Malachi 2:10

Who is the Holy Spirit Exodus 31:3, 35:31 Matthew 10:20

Who lives in believers? Deuteronomy 33:12 John 14:23

Who resurrected Jesus? Acts 4:10 Romans 6:4

Who resurrects the dead? Acts 26:8 John 5:21

Who sanctifies us? Exodus 31:13, Leviticus 20:8 Hebrews 2:11

Who sent Jesus? John 6:29, John 17:3 John 5:37, 8:18, 16:27, 28, 17:21, 25, 20:21

Who sent the Holy Spirit? Isaiah 48:16, 63:11, John 14:16 Luke 11:13, Acts 2:33

Who will judge mankind? Isaiah 3:13, 14 1 Peter 1:17

Whom are we to worship? Exodus 34:14 John 4:21, Ephesians 3:14

Whose kingdom is in Heaven? 2 Timothy 4:1 Matthew 13:32, 25:34, Luke 11:2, 1 Corinthians 15:24

If the Father claims to be the only God and like wise the Son, and The Holy spirit, who is lying?

If we are commanded to worship God alone but also commanded to worship Jesus , who should we worship?

If the father resureccted Jesus and Jesus resurrected himself, and the Holy spirit also claims to have resurrected Jesus, who really resurrected Jesus?

[Elgama]

X you do know in Latter Day Saint belief that Jesus Christ is the God of the Old Testament?

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Jesus the Christ: Our Master and More

and another by President Hinckley

LDS.org - Liahona Article - We Testify of Jesus Christ

this article discusses some of the scriptures you mentioned.

-Charley

[xanmad33]

Xan-I see Isa. passages ect as presenting many contradictions to the New Testament idea of the persons. I see New Testament writers as not believing in the latin word persona. I see no reason to believe they believed anything like it. So i accept they considered the one God was composed of what would know today as three modern persons. A heretic who accepted God and Christ as two persons would simply camo-flauge their heresy in the language of mono-theism. So to me since i cannot find the creedal definitions of persons Biblical i confess they simply split the God of the Bible into two Gods. So i see the New Testament idea of God as mixing in a social Trinity with strict mono-theistic ideas that can never harmonize. The creedal writers tried an failed to do it with persona.

I simply feel Jesus pretended to be the exclusive God with the Father in the Old Testament. So that when speaking for the Father as his agent he would pretend to have no personality of his own. I would not get that idea from reading Isaiah passages. They do teach the exclusiveness of God. My testimony of God and Christ being two distinct persons comes from a careful study of the New Testament. I just confess the Bible mixes mono-theism with tri-theism and extend no time trying to explain away the contradictions in Gods word.

I see the New Testament claiming a lot "We are mono-theists just like you." "But by the way this one God is composed of Father and Son." I know its blasphemy, but maybe God and Christ got tired of pretending to be the same person as they did in Isaiah.

To me the only way to avoid poly-theism is to accept the idea of the Trinity, or equivocate on Jesus Deity. Since i reject the creedal idea of persons the 1st option is out for me as a serious option. I am more open to equivocating on Jesus Deity option than accepting the Trinity. But i confess scripture does not do that. So not seeing a need to be a strict mono-theist i simply confess the New Testament departs from strict mono-theism.

Certainly i am well aware of monotheistic proof-texts from the Old and New Testaments. I just feel those scriptures that teach the three are distinct persons split the one God of the Bible into two Gods. I cannot look at one mono-theistic proof text and not see the persons of God. I doubt Paul believed the meaning of a word like persona, or anything like it. So his idea of one God the Father and only Lord Jesus to me simply split the God of the Bible into two modern persons.

I spent a lot of time with you on the latin word persona for a reason. The reason being is the meaning of the word person is very important. It can mean human persons. It can mean God as a person. It can mean the persons the actor God plays in the drama of history. Depending on what definition, Paul, Jesus, James, ect had in mind when calling God persons would effect whether they can be viewed as strict mono-theists, or not.

Answer my questions I have laid out in my last post.

All I have asked you to do is consider what The Bible says, not Mormon doctrine. I have out lined again for you all the places that The father claims to be God, and like wise the son and the Holy Ghost, when the father says He is the ONLY God, who is lying???

Please show me where it says there are 3 gods in the Bible

[WillowTheWhisp]

None of us dispute the fact that Jesus, Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost are all divine. We are simply saying, as does the Bible itself, that they are not the same person. They are seperate. If they were niot seperate then why would Jesus pray to himself? You speak of logic and logic itself tells us that a person does not pray to himself and debate with himself about whether his will or his will should be done - not unless they are a psychiatric case.

Jesus is and always has been divine. He is Jehovah the God of the Old Testament. This is LDS doctrine.

[Elgama]

None of us dispute the fact that Jesus, Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost are all divine. We are simply saying, as does the Bible itself, that they are not the same person. They are seperate. If they were niot seperate then why would Jesus pray to himself? You speak of logic and logic itself tells us that a person does not pray to himself and debate with himself about whether his will or his will should be done - not unless they are a psychiatric case.

Jesus is and always has been divine. He is Jehovah the God of the Old Testament. This is LDS doctrine.

That was beautiful Willow - I always find the example the Saviour set of fully submitting to our Father's will the most powerful thing in scripture and the moment when the Father says this is my Beloved Son, wonderful for me that would be seriously cheapened if He was submitting to Himself, giving Himself glory - that does not square with the God I pray to on any level

-Charley