Some questions for Mormons

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Journal of Discourses is not Canon if a prophet says something you can be sure its OK to think about it, a prophet will not be allowed to lead us astray but not everything they say is doctrine either - however we are taught line upon line, precept upon precept and we are expected to keep growing - what was OK for someone to think in 1847 may not be OK in 2008 because the prophet has spoken.

The Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price are doctrine if you can find anything in them then I will take it as doctrine - and if it comes during General Conference then personally I take it as current doctrine and understanding. But we all have the Holy Ghost - and we simply take anything we have doubts with to the Lord and ask Him for help to gain a testimony or for a confirmation.

If you want to know what Latter Day Saints believe and understand, what stage our church is at look at General Conference.

-Charley

Yeah April 5 and 6. The General Conference sessions on the Sixth are going to be exceptional.

[Elgama]

this is from a talk by Henry B Eyring in 2001

Obey Spiritual Promptings

You can test what I am saying. When the Spirit is invited into a meeting, truth is communicated beyond what is said aloud. In your Church meetings, write down impressions or thoughts that you feel came from God. And, remembering what we have said about building a foundation, think carefully about whether the truth you received requires action. It is by obedience to commandments that we qualify for further revelation of truth and light. In a recent meeting you may have committed to act on something you felt was true. Then more truth came to you. That process may slow or stop if, as you go out into daily life, you fail to keep the silent commitments you made with God. God not only loves the obedient, He enlightens them. I fear that more people make promises to God than keep them, so you will please Him when you are the exception and you keep your promise to obey. You should test those impressions of what you should do against a simple standard: Is it what the Master has commanded in the accepted revelations, and is it clearly within my calling in His kingdom?

Keeping some commandments has greater power to build your foundation on truth and light. You could think of those as enabling commandments, because they build your power to keep other commandments. Whatever invites the Holy Ghost to be your companion will bring you greater wisdom and greater ability to obey God. For instance, you are promised that if you always remember the Savior, you will have His Spirit to be with you. You are commanded to pray that you may have the Holy Ghost. You are commanded to pray that you might not be overcome by temptation and so be clean and worthy of the Holy Spirit. You are commanded to study the word of God that you may have His Spirit. I would not set one commandment above another, but I might put some earlier in my efforts if they carry with them the promise of the companionship of the Holy Ghost. The Comforter will lead us to truth and light and will help us obey our Father in Heaven and His Beloved Son. We will come to love Them and those around us as we serve Them, and thus we will keep the great commandments.

Life will have its storms. We can and must have confidence. God our Heavenly Father has given us the right to know the truth. He has shown that the way to receive that truth is simple, so simple that a child can follow it. Once it is followed, more light comes from God to enlighten the understanding of His faithful spirit child. That light will become brighter even as the world darkens. The light that comes to us with truth will be brighter than the darkness that comes from sin and error around us. A foundation built on truth and illuminated by the light of God will free us from the fear that we might be overcome.

I testify that God the Father lives. He knows us. We are His beloved children. His Son, Jesus Christ, is the Savior of the world. He came down into mortality, where we would have been forever lost without Him, to give us the incomprehensible gift of the Atonement. He went below all things so that we might be exalted if we choose to follow Him. I testify that He lives. I know that we will all be resurrected to stand before Him. I know that we can be washed clean if we repent and do what we are commanded, to claim the precious gift of forgiveness. I know that tthe Lord teaches us Line upon Line here is the church doctrine on that in 2001 the keys of the holy priesthood are on the earth, that Gordon B. Hinckley is the Lord’s prophet and exercises those keys. Joseph Smith was and is a true prophet. I promise you that as you obey the commandments, you will know the truth and be strengthened and warmed by light and love, which will come from God.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

And here is a super article

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Line upon Line

Its a little too long to post but teaches about how church history has evolved.

-Charley

[a-train]

a-train, with all due respect I have been extremely willing to talk with you about my beliefs, have I not?

You ignored my questions for pages.

When have I ever denied that? Jesus is God manefest in the flesh.

In post 329:

a-train asked:

Does God (Jesus) have a body of flesh and bone? You answered: God is spirit,so no but if he wants one he can certainly have one

Further, Jesus was not just 'manifest' in the flesh. He CAME in the flesh. (1. John 4:2-3)

What was begged by Joseph of Aramithaea? 'The BODY of Jesus.' (Matt. 27:58)

What did Jesus show unto the disciples after He rose? His 'FLESH and BONES'. (Luke 24:39)

1. Isaiah 9:6 is one of the most powerful proofs that Jesus is God: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father The Prince of Peace." The terms child and son refer to the Incarnation or manifestation of "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father."

2. Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us (Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23).

3. Isaiah described the Messiah as both a branch out of Jesse (the father of David) and as the root of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1, 10; see also Revelation 22:16). According to the flesh He was a descendant (branch) of Jesse and David, but according to His Spirit He was their Creator and source of life (root). Jesus used this concept to confound the Pharisees when He quoted Psalm 110:1 and asked, in essence, "How could David call the Messiah Lord when the Messiah was to be the son (descendant) of David?" (Matthew 22:41-46).

4. Isaiah 35:4-6 shows that Jesus is God: "Behold, your God… he will come and save you." This passage goes on to say that when God comes the eyes of the blind would be opened, the ears of the deaf would be unstopped, the lame would leap, and the tongue of the dumb would speak. Jesus applied this passage of Scripture to Himself (Luke 7:22) and, of course, His ministry did produce all of these things.

5. Isaiah 40:3 declares that one would cry in the wilderness, "Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." John the Baptist fulfilled this prophecy when he prepared the way for Jesus (Matthew 3:3); so Jesus is the LORD (Jehovah) and our God.

How is it that after all these evidences have been shown to you that Jesus is God, and that He has flesh and bone, that you will yet deny that God has a body of flesh and bone?

Joseph Smith's testimony was one and the same as the disciples of old: God 'has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.'

The questions I have posed regarding Jesus being born (therefore having a beginning) are directly from LDS leaders and doctrine, as are the questions regarding God the Father literally procreating spirit children in Heaven.

If you wish to find fault with those who bare testimony of the birth of the Son of God, then start with Matthew His disciple who said: 'Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise...'

Or, perhaps begin with Isaiah who said: 'For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.'

Mormons have not ceased to say in this forum to you that Jesus is unequivocally without any beginning. When will you be convinced?

-a-train

[WillowTheWhisp]

I feel these are very important verses, and some of you may not have read or considered them:

This is to show that the Holy Spirit is also God...

The first verse is a reference to God, the second is a reference to the Holy Spirit

Who gives eternal life? Proverbs 19:23 Ezekiel 37:14, John 6:63, Romans 8:2, 8:6, 11, 13, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Galatians 6:8

Answer: Proverbs 19:23 The Lord (nothing more detailed specified) Ezekiel 37:14 The Lord speaking about his spirit. John 6:63 The spirit quickeneth the flesh - sounds logical to me, a body without a spirit is a dead one, a body with a spirit is 'quick' or in other words alive. Romans 8:2,6,11,13 I am particularly drawn here to verse 11 which refers to 'him that raised up Christ from the dead' - which does actually seem to be referring to one person who did something for another person. It doesn't say raised himself up does it? The rest seems to be referring to our way of living either carnally or spiritually.

Who gives grace? Psalms 84:11 Zechariah 12:10, Hebrews 10:29

Answer: Palm 84:11 The Lord Zechariah 12:10 The Lord Hebrews 10:29 This specifically refers to the Son of God - now to me a son of someone means a seperate person to the parent. I'm really not sure what you are asking in this question but I see nothing conrary to LDS doctrine.

Who gives power and authority to man? Psalms 68:35 Micah 3:8, Acts 1:8, 20:28 Romans 15:19, 1 Corinthians 2:4, Ephesians 3:16, 4:3, 1 Thessalonians 1:5

Answer: Romans 15:19 This verse refers to signs and wonders not authority and power. 1 Corinthians 2:4 This verse refers to preaching by the Spirit, again not contrary to LDS teaching, in fact the best lessons and talks are the ones given with the aid of the Holy Ghost, however again this verse does not seem to refer to authority. Ephesians 3:16 again strengthened by the Spirit, not about authority but about strength. 4:3 the Spirit again bringing unity and peace. I don't see the connection to the question. 1 Thessalonians 1:5 again about the Holy Ghost giving power. Power is not the same as authority. Authority comes from Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ but the power to do things in his name comes from the Holy Ghost.

Who has authority and power? 1 Chronicles 29:11 Micah 3:8, Luke 1:35, 4:14, Romans 15:13, 19, Ephesians 3:16

Answer: 1 Chronicles 29:11 The Lord - undisputed. Heavenly Father passes his authority to mankind through Jesus Christ. Micah3:8 This verse is another one about power. It is referring to being empowered by the Holy Ghost. Luke 1:35 This is one we really don't fully have the answer to. We know that Mary conceived 'by the power of the Holy Ghost' but we also know that Heavenly Father was the father of her son - we do not know how this took place simply because we have not been told the details. 4:14 This verse tells us that Jesus in his earthly life could also be empowered by the spirit just as we can. Romans 15:13 & 19 Here we have a verse referring to God and to the Holy Ghost. In the second verse specifically to the Holy Ghost giving us power. Ephesians 3:16 Again about the Holy Ghost giving us strength. None of these verses contradict LDS doctrine.

Who has glory? Isaiah 40:5 2 Corinthians 3:8

Answer: Isaiah 40:5 Specifically this verse states 'The Lord' - remember that we have said the God of the Old Testament is Jehovah who is the pre-mortal Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:8 This is simply saying that the ministration of the Holy Ghost is glorious. I'd certainly agree with that. His ministration is indeed glorious in many ways when he strengthens us, when he gives us confidence, when he testifies to us of Christ, when he gives us wisdom and brings things to our understanding so that we can testify of Christ. He is wonderful and glorious indeed.

Who is eternal? Genesis 21:33 John 14:16, Hebrews 9:14

Answer: We are all eternal in that we all lived with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ before our birth on earth and we will all live forever following our resurrection. Genesis 21:33 The Lord God (Jehovah/Jesus) John 14:16 This is an absolutely classic verse to support the LDS doctrine of three separate beings as Jesus says he will pray to the Father to give us another, the Comforter (in other words the Holy Ghost) So we have one person asking another person to send us a third person. He doesn't say "I am having a think to myself about coming back in a different form." Hebrews 9:14 again another verse about three separate beings, Jesus offering himself to God through the Holy Ghost.

Who is Holy? 1 Samuel 2:2 Romans 1:4

Answer: 1 Samuel 2:2 Samuel is talking about Jehovah in the context of none of the other pagan gods or false gods being as powerful. Romans 1:4 This verse tells us that Jesus is the son of God, a totally separate being.

Who is omnipresent Jeremiah 23:24 Psalms 139:7

Answer: Jeremiah 23:24 The Lord can see us wherever we are and whatever we do. Yes, I go along with that as I think most Christians do. Quite how he manages to see and hear us all I do not know, any more than I know how he manages to hear and answer all our prayers but I do know that he does. Psalm 139:7 Maybe it's the Holy Spirit who does all the observing because being a spirit he is able to - but then again I don't know what a resurrected physical body is capable of, all I can speak for it the limitations of our present bodies.

Who is omniscient? 1 John 3:20 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11

Answer: 1 John 3:20 God knows all things - I don't think we can argue with that. That's LDS doctrine too. 1 Corinthians 2:10, 11 This is telling us that we cannot know things of God except by the revelation to us from the Holy Ghost.

Who is our Father? Isaiah 63:16 Matthew 10:20

Answer: Isaiah 63:16 God is our Father Matthew 10:20 Jesus Christ is not actually saying he is the Father here is he? Surely if the Trinity were true then he would claim to be the Father?

[WillowTheWhisp]

Who is our Savior? Isaiah 43:11, 45:21, Psalms 62:2, 6, Hosea 13:4 Romans 8:11-15, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30

Answer: Isaiah 43: 11 Jehovah/Jesus is our Saviour 45:21 The Plan was Heavenly Father's plan and was executed by Jesus Christ when he atoned for our sins so that we could all be accepted back into the presence of our Heavenly Father. Psalm 62:2, 6 This is David explaining that his foundation is the Lord. (bit like the wise man who built his house upon the rock) He is emphasising that he doesn't rely on humanity. Hosea 13:4 Jehovah/Jesus Romans 8:11-15 This doesn't answer the question posed as far as I can see but it does make the distinction between living a carnal life and living a spirit filled life. Ephesians 1:13 by looking at the previous verse I can see that this verse refers to Jesus Christ. Ephesians 4:30 This verse refers to the Holy Spirit and asks us not to grieve him. How would we grieve him? By denying Christ?

Who is the Creator? Genesis 1:31, Isaiah 44:24, Nehemiah 9:6, Mark 13:19, Revelation 4:11 Genesis 1:2, Job 33:4, Psalms 104:30

Answer: Genesis 1:31 God (This being the God of the Old Testament who is Jehovah/Jesus Christ who created all things according to the request of his Heavenly Father. Isaiah 44:24 The Lord - again Jehovah/Jesus. Nehemiah 9:6 Same answer. Mark 13:19 The verse says God, it is fairly unspecific. Revelation 4:11 The verse says Lord - it refers to the creator who was Jehovah/Jesus Christ, Genesis 1:2 this verse is about the void before things were, Job 33:4 There is probably someone else on the forum who can better explain this verse. To me it sounds again like the Holy Spirit giving power to a person. Psalm 104:30 This verse talks about one person sending forth another - again non-Trinitarian

Who is the truth? Psalms 31:5, Isaiah 65:16 John 14:17, 15:26, 16:13, 1 John 5:7

Answer: Psalm 31:5 God is the God of truth, Isaiah 65:16 God John 14:17 The Spirit of truth - this is not saying that because God (Heavenly Father) is the God of truth and the Spirit is the Spirit of truth that they are both the same person. That would be like saying I am English and Pushka is English so I must be the same person as Pushka. 15:26 Here's another verse where Jesus is telling us that he will send the Comforter (or Holy Ghost) from the Father. It's definitely about three seperate people. I don't see how it answers the specific question though. 16:13 The Spirit will guide us in truth. No problems with that. 1 John 5:7 This is a verse which specifically tells us that there are three which bear witness in Heaven, the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. It says that these three are one. It doesn't say they are one person. It says they are three people and they are one. 'Onbe' in this sense means united just in the way the person conducting a marriage says that the husband and wife are one when they become married. They do niot cease to be two separate beings but they are united in marriage just as Father Son and Holy Ghost are united in Godhood.

Who is the way or path? Psalms 16:11 Judges 13:25, 1 Samuel 11:6, 16:13, Isaiah 63:14, Psalms 143:10, Romans 8:14, Galatians 5:16, 2 Peter 1:21

Answer: Psalm 16:11 This verse in itself does not actually specify. It needs to be taken in context and as such David was referring to Jehovah/Jesus. Judges 13:25 I don't understand how you are relating this verse to the question 1 Samuel 11:6 Again I don;'t see the connection between this verse and your question. 16:13 This sounds very much like an annointing and confirmation, again I don't see how it relates to your question. Isaiah 63:14 The Lord again leading his people, the God of the Old Testament Jehovah/Jesus. Psalm 143:10 This verse is just David asking God to teach him to do his will. No problems there. Not sure it relates specifically to your question though. Romans 8:14 led by the Spirit - yes we all need to be open to the guidance of the Holy Ghost. Galatians 5:16 again admonition to follow the guidance of the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:21 again another verse about people inspired by the Holy Ghost.

Who resurrected Jesus? Acts 4:10 Romans 8:11

Answer: Acts 4:10 This is another verse which does not support the Trinitarian doctrine. It quite clearly involves two people. Jesus Christ who is dead and Heavenly Father who raised him from the dead. Romans 8:11 again support for non-Trinitarian belief. I thi nk we may have a confusion between the meaning of 'the spirit of God' and The Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost. I believe that when we refer to the spirit of God we refer in much the same way as we can refer to our own spirit.

Who resurrects the dead? Acts 26:8 Romans 8:11

Answer: Acts 26:8 God Romans 8:11 - see previous answer

Who sent the prophets? Jeremiah 7:25 Numbers 11:25, 26, 29, 24:2, 1 Samuel 10:6, 10, 19:20, 23, Joel 2:28, Zechariah 7:12, Matthew 22:43, John 16:13, Acts 2:17, 11:28, 19:6, Ephesians 3:5, 1 Timothy 4:1, Hebrews 9:8, 1 Peter 1:11, 2 Peter 1:21

Answer: Jeremiah 7:25 taking just this one verse out of context it is impossible to answer the question but the answer is actually God. Numbers 11:25 The Lord, 26 empowered by the Spirit, 29 this verse does not actually answer the question but does refer to people needing to receive the Holy Ghost in order to be able to be prophets. 24:2 I'm not sure how you relate this verse to your question as it refers to Baal, 1 Samuel 10:6 again refers to people receiving the Holy Ghost and being empowered to prophesy, 10 same again, 19:20 same again, 23 and again. Joel 2:28 God promising the gift of the Holy Ghost to give people the power to prophesy etc, This isn't about who sent them but about how they gain the strength and power to do the work. Zechariah 7:12 The Lord sent the prophets, the Spirit gave them power to prophesy. Matthew 22:43 Sorry, I'm not sure what you are looking for from this verse in relation to the question, John 16:13 You really need to read this in conjunction with the following verse which explains that Jesus is telling his disciples that the Holy Ghost will testify of him. Again clearly referring to two separate individuals. Acts 2:17 gain people will be empowered by the Holy Ghost to prophesy etc, 11:28 Not sure how this fits the question. It's yet another verse about the Holy Ghost. 19:6 The gift of the Holy Ghost - pure LDS doctrine again. When someone is baptised into our church they are subsequently confirmed a member of the Church by priesthood holders laying on hands and giving them the gift of the Holy Ghost, Ephesians 3:5 revelation comes from the Holy Ghost, not sure how this one answers your question either. The Holy Ghost does not send the prophets, he reveals things to them and gives them power to prophesy, 1 Tim 4:1 This verse doesn't relate to the question but it does warn that in the latter days there will be many who deviate from the truth. We believe this has happened and this is why the gospel needed to be restored to what was taught in the days of Christ on earth. Hebrews 9:8 This verse does not relate to the question either but does explain that the Holy Ghost shows the reasons behind why certain things were done, 1 Peter 1:11 Are you confusing 'the Spirit of Christ' here with the Holy Ghost? 2 Peter 1:21 Another verse which testifies that those who prophesy do so with power from the Holy Ghost.

Whom are we to worship? Exodus 34:14 Philippians 3:3

Answer: Exodus 34:14 We are not to worship false Gods, only the God who is our Father. Philippians 3:3 Again we worship God the Father.

I hope I have adequately responded to all of the above. Please forgive me if I do not proceed with the rest right now but that has been quite exhausting and taken most of the evening. I have had to break it down into two posts because there was too much to be posted in one.

[WillowTheWhisp]

But Mormon doctrine does not recognize them as being the same ultimate being correct?

They recognize God the father having sexual relations with Mrs. God (if you will) and having Jesus correct?

So according to Mormons they are not one and the same correct?

We don't actually know how spirit children are created. The way mortal beings are created may only relate to mortal beings (remember that God told Eve that she would bring forth her children in sorrow, after the fall.)

Yes you are absolutely correct that Mormons believe God is the Father of Jesus and that Jesus is the spirit son and only begotten son in the flesh of God the Father. There is no way that a father and his son can be the same person.

[xanmad33]

You ignored my questions for pages.

becasue I felt them to be misleading

In post 329:

Further, Jesus was not just 'manifest' in the flesh. He CAME in the flesh. (1. John 4:2-3)

What was begged by Joseph of Aramithaea? 'The BODY of Jesus.' (Matt. 27:58)

What did Jesus show unto the disciples after He rose? His 'FLESH and BONES'. (Luke 24:39)

You misunderstood me and I have shown that is post after post after post.

My intent was to show you my belief that God the Father and God the Son are one.

Jesus came in the flesh, I would never deny that, sorry for the confusion.

How is it that after all these evidences have been shown to you that Jesus is God, and that He has flesh and bone, that you will yet deny that God has a body of flesh and bone?

Joseph Smith's testimony was one and the same as the disciples of old: God 'has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s.'

If you wish to find fault with those who bare testimony of the birth of the Son of God, then start with Matthew His disciple who said: 'Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise...'

Or, perhaps begin with Isaiah who said: 'For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.'

Mormons have not ceased to say in this forum to you that Jesus is unequivocally without any beginning. When will you be convinced?

-a-train

I see you havent bothered to read the links I provided that outlined exactly what I believe.

Not only that, Now you are saying "God" has a body of flesh and bone, this was my hesitation in answering that question before, you see? Our definition of "God" is very different, again this has been outlined for you in my previous posts.

[xanmad33]

We don't actually know how spirit children are created. The way mortal beings are created may only relate to mortal beings (remember that God told Eve that she would bring forth her children in sorrow, after the fall.)

Yes you are absolutely correct that Mormons believe God is the Father of Jesus and that Jesus is the spirit son and only begotten son in the flesh of God the Father. There is no way that a father and his son can be the same person.

So then Jesus has not eternally existed?

[a-train]

actually it does, many times and in many ways.

There is only one God, who is the Creator and Father of mankind (Malachi 2:10).

There is nothing in this verse that says in any way that the Father and the Son are the 'same being'. It says that 'one God created us', but it does not say that this One God is but a 'single Being'. The notion is not found in the scriptures. The trouble is that the oneness of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost is not specifically defined in such terms within the scriptures. Such a definition is an interpolation of man's teachings into the scriptures.

If Jesus was also the creator, wouldn't this verse alone be a lie?

All the prophets testified of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God' (Alma 11:44) Does it not make sense that the Hebrew term Eloheim is plural? God is not a single Being. Jesus testified of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Also did Paul and the disciples. These Three are physically seperate and have seperate wills, as testified in the New Testament and as mentioned by many others in this thread.

-a-train

[xanmad33]

If God "is the Father of Jesus and that Jesus is the spirit son and only begotten son in the flesh of God the Father." and "There is no way that a father and his son can be the same person"

then it is logical to conclude that you believe that Jeusus had to have a beginning correct?

According to the belief above, it would be reasonable to assume Jesus has not eternally existed, would it not?

[WillowTheWhisp]

So then Jesus has not eternally existed?

Yes he has - we all have, but we do not fully understand that. Before we became spirit children we were intelligences. Beyond that it gets too deep for me I'm afraid.

We are always going to disagree on points of doctrine I think and we will have to agree to disagree because to us when we read the Bible we se it as confirming everything we believe and there is noway you could convince us otherwise. I have pointed out in a few of those verses you used to illustrate your questions that they do testify of three individual beings and are perfectly in harmony with LDS doctrine. We are just going to go round and round in circles on this.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Does it not make sense that the Hebrew term Eloheim is plural? God is not a single Being. Jesus testified of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Also did Paul and the disciples. These Three are physically seperate and have seperate wills, as testified in the New Testament and as mentioned by many others in this thread.

-a-train

It's also interesting to note that in Genesis 1:26 it says:

"And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness." It does not say "God said I will make man in my image after my likeness"

[a-train]

Now you are saying "God" has a body of flesh and bone, this was my hesitation in answering that question before, you see? Our definition of "God" is very different, again this has been outlined for you in my previous posts.

OK, so in what sense does God NOT have a body of flesh and bone? If Modalism is true, then God has a body of flesh and bone. If Trinitarianism is true, then God has a body of flesh and bone. If Mormonism is true, then God has a body of flesh and bone. Where do we find God 'not' having a body of flesh and bone?

-a-train

[a-train]

If God "is the Father of Jesus and that Jesus is the spirit son and only begotten son in the flesh of God the Father." and "There is no way that a father and his son can be the same person"

then it is logical to conclude that you believe that Jesus had to have a beginning correct?

The answer is still NO. Jesus' birth whether in spirit or in the flesh was not His beginning.

According to the belief above, it would be reasonable to assume Jesus has not eternally existed, would it not?

It would definitely not.

-a-train

[Dale]

But Mormon doctrine does not recognize them as being the same ultimate being correct?

They recognize God the father having sexual relations with Mrs. God (if you will) and having Jesus correct?

So according to Mormons they are not one and the same correct?

LDS prefer to say we are literal spirit children of our heavenly Father. I do not actually see the idea in LDS scriptures. The idea got worked into LDS official statements. But i actually feel the idea is a result of misunderstanding D.&C. 132:which talks about "a continuation of the seeds forever and ever." I think it refers to having physical children after the resurrection. Most thought it taught having spirit children. That is one interpretation but not the only interpretation. The only way the Father has children these days is spiritual adoption. "the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto god." (D.&C. 76:24) Since Jesus was a spirit to me my guess is God miracelously created his spirit body much like he did the angels. (Collossians 1:15) The intelligence part of Jesus put into his spirit body "was not created or made." (D.&C. 93:29)

"The spirit of truth is God. I am the Spirit of truth." (93:26)

"Intelligence or the light of truth, was not created or made." (vs.29)

The sex life of God is none of my business. Of course i am RLDS and we don't feel the Father has a body, or a wife. But if i were LDS this is how i would approach the issue. But i have no objection to a pre-incarnate angelic form being created for Jesus intelligence. If i found out the Father had a body and a wife i would would accept it without losing my faith over it.

Jesus was called Rabbi a title reserved for married men. Certain women had came to anoint Jesus body with spices. That was the duty of the widow, or widows. (Luke 23:55,56) In John 11 Jesus calls out a woman in mourning which only a husband could do. If God the Son had a wife that means God had a married life if they arn't separate beings? (Luke 24:39) Under the creeds outside of Jesus the man they are the same person.

[a-train]

It's also interesting to note that in Genesis 1:26 it says:

"And God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness." It does not say "God said I will make man in my image after my likeness"

And again in Genesis 3:22: 'And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:'

[xanmad33]

oops

[skalenfehl]

oops

That was interesting.

[xanmad33]

And again in Genesis 3:22: 'And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:'

I think this article captures that beautifully:

"If you believe that God had any involvement in preparing His own Word, the Bible,

then you must at least acknowledge what it says in any translation, that in the beginning was GOD (singular), and not Gods (plural).

God is not the author of confusion and so, God confirmed in John 1:1, what He said in Gen 1:1, that in the beginning was ONE God Being (singular), ONE center of thought, with the additional information that in the beginning was also His WORD (notice: "His Word," not another God person in a Godhead),

and His Word was always with Him, and His Word was Him. In the beginning, the ONE God

was working, and the thoughts of His mind were executed and verbalized by and through His WORD. And so, after referring to Himself as "God" (singular) 24 times in the first 25 verses of Genesis 1, we come to verse 26 were it says:

"Then God (singular) said, 'Let US (plural) make man in OUR (plural) image, after OUR

(plural) likeness…"

Now, it could well be that God referred to Himself with six plural pronouns to show that HE

is "all in all." The "us" and "our," in this context, would simply proclaim that God is all

inclusive, for everything that exists has its being, and derives its existence from God. God is "US" and "OUR" because God is "ALL in ALL?"

But, primarily I believe that the "us" and "our" refer to God and the Word of God, that

would (later) BECOME the Son of God - Jesus. God, who does not exist in time, is using

proleptic language, to show that from His point of view (expressed by only six plural pronouns) the Word that would become the Son is already a fact, whereas from man's point of view (expressed by 7000+ singular pronouns) the birth of the firstborn Son was still in the future.

Jesus was born of God, in the fullness of time, when the Word of God (not a second God)

BECAME the Son of God.

In Gen 1:24, 25 God made all living creatures according to their kind. Then in Gen 1:26

comes this major change where God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

God through His Word, spoke proleptically and prophetically and said let "us" (meaning

Himself and His Word that 4000 years later would become His Son) make man in our image

and likeness. Man was not, at that time, made complete in the image and likeness of God. Not

until after the Word of God BECAME the Son of God, did the "us" and "our" reach its full

original, indented meaning. "

[Brother Dorsey]

xan- Everyone here agrees that the Bible is just as reliable as the BOM, Journals and discourses, doctrine and covenants, & pearl of great price...Are all those sound doctrines?

I think this statement may be one your problems of misunderstanding LDS doctrine.....I have seen you many times posting excerpts from Journals & Discourses....J & D is NOT official canonized doctrine of the church. The only official canonized doctrine of the church is the KJV Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. All others are not.

xan- Does your bishop preach sound doctrine on Sundays?

I see you've never been to an LDS Sacrament meeting before.....The Bishop sometimes will give a talk but most times it is 2 or 3 members of the ward who are called a week or so before who are given a topic to talk about....these members then with thoughtful prayer and inspiration from the Lord prepare a "talk" to give in the next Sundays meeting. In our church there is no escaping the dreaded phone call from the Bishopric to ask us to talk....every member will eventually give a talk...some more than others. There really isn't any preaching in the standard "Christian" sense. Most talks are how we can improve our spiritual selves. LDS folks really don't need no preachin' because we've already accepted the Gospel...we just need a good message to remind us why we are here!

xan- What about your apostles?

Did Christ's Apostles teach there own doctrine? No and neither will Christ's Apostles in this final dispensation of the Lord's Gospel.

xan- And just to clear up my personal confusion, Your prophet does not preach sound doctrine unless he is "in the spirit"?

Our President, Prophet, Seer and Revelator Thomas S. Monson as well as all Prophets before him in this final dispensation teach only canonized doctrine of the church. They do however give a lot of good advice for our time and remind us about the standards of God. This advice is considered revelation from God...but it's not part of official doctrine. The only time something a Prophet of God says that is doctrine is when he quotes official doctrine or if it is given to him by Christ to be canonized as doctrine and added to current canonized doctrine for this dispensation in the D & C.. Besides you have to remember the church is perfect, not the people and that includes the Prophet. If the Prophet, one of the First Presidency or the 12, any General Authority of the church, Stake President, Bishop, Sunday school teacher or a member giving a talk in Sacrament teaches something contrary to doctrine of the church the members will know it through the Spirit of the Lord. And if it blatantly continues the Lord will remove that person from their calling.

[a-train]

And so, after referring to Himself as "God" (singular) 24 times in the first 25 verses of Genesis 1, we come to verse 26 were it says: "Then God (singular) said, 'Let US (plural) make man in OUR (plural) image, after OUR (plural) likeness…"

But the Hebrew scriptures do NOT say '"God" (singular) 24 times in the first 25 verses of Genesis 1' The Hebrew term, that is translated 'God' is a PLURAL term.

The text literally says: 'In the beginning Gods created the heaven and the earth.' (Gen 1:1)

Now the argument has long existed and some have long stood that the term in no way is plural. Like the term 'family' it can be used in the singular sense even though it is a plural word by definition. Some say that the plural argument is presupposed, but then, so is the singular argument. It becomes a matter of which came first the chicken or the egg?

Regardless of all the arguments, and no matter what we believe, the fact still remains that the term is the plural. And it is NOT exclusively plural. It is the plural of a common term that can be used singularly.

The premise of LDS theology does not rest on this term nor its use, but in light of what we know by revelation, the term makes some good sense.

-a-train

[xanmad33]

LDS prefer to say we are literal spirit children of our heavenly Father. I do not actually see the idea in LDS scriptures. The idea got worked into LDS official statements. But i actually feel the idea is a result of misunderstanding D.&C. 132:which talks about "a continuation of the seeds forever and ever." I think it refers to having physical children after the resurrection. Most thought it taught having spirit children. That is one interpretation but not the only interpretation. The only way the Father has children these days is spiritual adoption. "the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto god." (D.&C. 76:24) Since Jesus was a spirit to me my guess is God miracelously created his spirit body much like he did the angels. (Collossians 1:15) The intelligence part of Jesus put into his spirit body "was not created or made." (D.&C. 93:29)

"The spirit of truth is God. I am the Spirit of truth." (93:26)

"Intelligence or the light of truth, was not created or made." (vs.29)

The sex life of God is none of my business. Of course i am RLDS and we don't feel the Father has a body, or a wife. But if i were LDS this is how i would approach the issue. But i have no objection to a pre-incarnate angelic form being created for Jesus intelligence. If i found out the Father had a body and a wife i would would accept it without losing my faith over it.

Jesus was called Rabbi a title reserved for married men. Certain women had came to anoint Jesus body with spices. That was the duty of the widow, or widows. (Luke 23:55,56) In John 11 Jesus calls out a woman in mourning which only a husband could do. If God the Son had a wife that means God had a married life if they arn't separate beings? (Luke 24:39) Under the creeds outside of Jesus the man they are the same person.

I just cannot reconcile what you all have said here, to Mormon Doctrine.

Joseph Smith wrote:

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . . He was once a man like us; yea that God himself, the Father dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did. . . .{10}

Here then, is eternal life--to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you. . . .{13}

Bruce McConkie states, "An exalted and glorified man of holiness could not be a Father unless a woman of like glory, perfection, and holiness was associated with him as a Mother. The begetting of children makes a man a father and a woman a mother whether we are dealing with man in his mortal or immortal state."{15}

All men and women are thus the offspring of this heavenly union.

James Talmage wrote, "God the Eternal Father, whom we designate by the exalted name-title 'Elohim,' is the literal Parent of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and of the spirits of the human race."{16}

I am confused about this one too because it's from a prophet from your church,

Over a period of 21 years Brigham Young taught that Adam was the God of this world, the creator of it, the Father of Jesus Christ, and our Heavenly Father. As the second Prophet, Seer, Revelator and President of the LDS Church, he taught this as essential church doctrine both in private and public discourse.

Here are quotes from Brigham Young on the subject of Adam-God.

"Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days! about whom holy men have written and spoken He is our Father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later .... When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; … Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation" (April 9, 1852, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pages 50-51).

"I purpose to speak upon a subject that does not immediately concern yours or my welfare. I expect in my remarks I will allude to things that you search after as being absolutely necessary for your salvation in the kingdom of God .… Father Adam and Mother Eve had the children of the human family prepared to come here and take bodies; … and that body gets an exaltation with the spirit, when they are prepared to be crowned in the Father’s kingdom. ‘What, into Adam’s kingdom?’ Yes .… I tell you, when you see your father in the heavens, you will see Adam. When you see your mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve." (October 8, 1854, Where Does It Say That?, pages 1-8, 1-9; Brigham Young Papers Mss, Call # Ms d 1234, Church Historian’s Office, Salt Lake City, Utah.)

"Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true" (October 7, 1857, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, page 331).

"I will give you a few words of doctrine, upon which there has been much inquiry, and with regard to which considerable ignorance exists. Br. Watt will write it, but it is not my intention to have it published; therefore pay good attention, and store it up in your memories. Some years ago, I advanced a doctrine with regard to Adam being our father and God that will be a curse to many Elders of Israel because of their folly. With regard to it they yet grovel in darkness and will. It is one of the most glorious revealments of the economy of heaven, yet upon it the world hold it derision." ("A Few Words of Doctrine" reported by G.D. Watts, given by President Brigham Young in Great Salt Lake City, October 8th, 1861. A.M., photocopy of archive # Ms/d/1234/Bx 49/fd 8).

It's my understanding that this is not doctrine anymore, but why did a prophet say all the above things and claim they were revealed to him if they are not true?

Did the Holy Spirit reveal them or not?

[xanmad33]

xan- Everyone here agrees that the Bible is just as reliable as the BOM, Journals and discourses, doctrine and covenants, & pearl of great price...Are all those sound doctrines?

I think this statement may be one your problems of misunderstanding LDS doctrine.....I have seen you many times posting excerpts from Journals & Discourses....J & D is NOT official canonized doctrine of the church. The only official canonized doctrine of the church is the KJV Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. All others are not.

xan- Does your bishop preach sound doctrine on Sundays?

I see you've never been to an LDS Sacrament meeting before.....The Bishop sometimes will give a talk but most times it is 2 or 3 members of the ward who are called a week or so before who are given a topic to talk about....these members then with thoughtful prayer and inspiration from the Lord prepare a "talk" to give in the next Sundays meeting. In our church there is no escaping the dreaded phone call from the Bishopric to ask us to talk....every member will eventually give a talk...some more than others. There really isn't any preaching in the standard "Christian" sense. Most talks are how we can improve our spiritual selves. LDS folks really don't need no preachin' because we've already accepted the Gospel...we just need a good message to remind us why we are here!

xan- What about your apostles?

Did Christ's Apostles teach there own doctrine? No and neither will Christ's Apostles in this final dispensation of the Lord's Gospel.

xan- And just to clear up my personal confusion, Your prophet does not preach sound doctrine unless he is "in the spirit"?

Our President, Prophet, Seer and Revelator Thomas S. Monson as well as all Prophets before him in this final dispensation teach only canonized doctrine of the church. They do however give a lot of good advice for our time and remind us about the standards of God. This advice is considered revelation from God...but it's not part of official doctrine. The only time something a Prophet of God says that is doctrine is when he quotes official doctrine or if it is given to him by Christ to be canonized as doctrine and added to current canonized doctrine for this dispensation in the D & C.. Besides you have to remember the church is perfect, not the people and that includes the Prophet. If the Prophet, one of the First Presidency or the 12, any General Authority of the church, Stake President, Bishop, Sunday school teacher or a member giving a talk in Sacrament teaches something contrary to doctrine of the church the members will know it through the Spirit of the Lord. And if it blatantly continues the Lord will remove that person from their calling.

I'm left wondering how anything is ever considered official belief by the LDS church? If truth can change with each and every LDS prophet, then this leads me to believe that Mormons are trusting in mere mortal men, truth is truth, is it not?

All these men claim to speak for God and the one true church, but the historical record clearly shows that most have, at one time or another contradicted eachother...

Many of the doctrines of the Church were given at general conferences and are still believed such as the doctrine of a “Heavenly Mother”. This doctrine is not found in any of the recognized doctrines but yet it is believed by all Mormons I have encountered.

LDS leaders of past have felt that what they were putting forth was very important just like the leaders of today: consider Brigham Young's statement: "What man or woman on the earth, what spirit in the spirit-world can say truthfully that I ever gave a wrong word of counsel, or a word of advice that could not be sanctioned by the heavens? (9) Journal of Discourses 12:127-128 )

[THIRDpersonviewer]

Although Christ-the Firstborn in the spirit and the Only Begotten in the flesh-is the Son of God the Father, and as such is a separate and distinct personage from the Father, yet there are three senses in which Christ is called the Father. These are clearly set forth in a document entitled, "The Father and the Son: A Doctrinal Exposition by the First Presidency and the Twelve."

1. Christ is the Father in the sense that he is the creator, the Maker, the Organizer of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.

2. He is the Father of all those who are born again, who "are begotten sons and daughters unto God" through his atoning sacrifice who are "spiritually begotten" through faith, thus becoming "his sons and his daughters."

3. He is the Father by what has aptly been termed divine investiture of authority. That is, since he is one with the Father in all of the attributes of perfection, and since he exercises the power and authority of the Father, it follows that everything he says or does is and would be exactly and precisely what the Father would say and do under the same circumstances.

Accordingly, the Father puts his own name on the Son and authorizes him to speak in the first person as though he were the Father. This is similar to the situation in which Christ puts his name on an angel so that the designated heavenly ministrant can speak in the first person as though he were Christ himself. Thus it is that our Lord can begin a revelation by saying, "Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ," and shortly thereafter speak of "mine Only Begotten," such latter expression being made by Christ, but under that divine investiture of authority which permits him to speak as though he were the Father.

-Elder Bruce R. McConkie

Mormon Doctrine(2nd edition) "Christ as the Father"

[xanmad33]

I think it's probably best to just go ahead and end this conversation. We are going to go round and round and round...

I'm tired, you all are tired, and at the end of it all, the more I look into Mormon teachings to find the answers to my questions, the more contradictions I am finding... he said, he said, he said

As I understand it, one cannot even trust your prophets or your church publications for truth in revelation and writings? Im confused...Anyway, after all's said and done, I have learned the answer to my ultimate question so, Thank you all for this very enlightening conversation!

p.s. I'm not gonna respond on this thread any further because inevitabley someone is going to say some really cruel things, or just get super nasty and I think I've had all I can handle of that, so...

Peace, love, and blessings my friends! And thank you to all the really cool Mormons that have befriended me here, you guys rock