The Nature of God

[WillowTheWhisp]

Please give me Jesus' references to "THE BOOK OF ENOCH"

What's more, Enoch couldn't have written it: It contains information that was only

known, or in existence, -AFTER- the flood. Enoch was raptured 700 years

before the flood.

The book of Enoch probably contains many of

Enoch's actual words but just because a book contains some true

statements, does not make the entire work True. Most false teaching

often contains even as much as 95% truth. Satan and his demons are busy

deceiving humanity, appearing as "ministers of righteousness".

(2Cor11:15)

In order to appear "righteous" they have to proclaim at least

'some' truth.

Nobody even knows who wrote it....

I really don't see how this argument can hold any weight...

If Jesus quoted from these scriptures then I doubt they would contain falsehoods. If they did then surely he would have spoken out against them?

You have commented that Jesus used and quoted from the Old Testament, but in fact the Old Testament did not exist in Jesus' day. What they had in their synagogues were collections of scrolls with different books written on them by different prophets. They were not compiled together in any form. I don't know a great deal about modern Judaism but I think they still have their scriptures in the synagogues in the same way on seperate scrolls.

Are we not praying to two seperate "Gods"? I have been trying to figure that one out all day...there is the one God of the Bible and the three of the BOM, right?

This is your interpretation, but to us LDS we see three members of the Godhead in the Bible. I see Jesus praying to his Heavenly Father. I see him saying "not my will but thine." Such a statement would simply not make sense if they were both the same person.

You believe that our understanding of the nature of God is wrong. We believe that you are the one who misunderstands.

I noticed that you mentioned at one point that you are getting contradictory responses from people here - that we do not all seem to believe the same thing. I wonder if that could be because some of the responses have been from non-LDS people. We even have a non-LDS moderator. So obviously their responses would be from a non-LDS viewpoint.

Sometimes I think it would be handy if there was reference to a person's religion actually within the posts, by the avatar or somewhere so that we would know which viewpoint is being represented.

[xanmad33]

If Jesus quoted from these scriptures then I doubt they would contain falsehoods. If they did then surely he would have spoken out against them?

You have commented that Jesus used and quoted from the Old Testament, but in fact the Old Testament did not exist in Jesus' day. What they had in their synagogues were collections of scrolls with different books written on them by different prophets. They were not compiled together in any form. I don't know a great deal about modern Judaism but I think they still have their scriptures in the synagogues in the same way on seperate scrolls.

Jesus quoted from 24 different Old Testament books, I should have said.

Please show me where he quoted from "The Book of Enoch?"

Jesus, like all the Jews of the first century, divided the Old Testament into three "collections": the law, the prophets, the psalms. Jesus said: "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." (Luke 24:44)

This is your interpretation, but to us LDS we see three members of the Godhead in the Bible. I see Jesus praying to his Heavenly Father. I see him saying "not my will but thine." Such a statement would simply not make sense if they were both the same person.

You believe that our understanding of the nature of God is wrong. We believe that you are the one who misunderstands.

I noticed that you mentioned at one point that you are getting contradictory responses from people here - that we do not all seem to believe the same thing. I wonder if that could be because some of the responses have been from non-LDS people. We even have a non-LDS moderator. So obviously their responses would be from a non-LDS viewpoint.

Sometimes I think it would be handy if there was reference to a person's religion actually within the posts, by the avatar or somewhere so that we would know which viewpoint is being represented.

Hmm.. thats a good idea, but everyone who has answered has done so on behalf of the LDS church, so i don't know???

[Traveler]

The true "sprirt" of God is the spirit of truth, I agree

but "truth" can be used by the enemy.. This is exactly what the evil one did when he tempted Jesus (Matthew 4:1-11). He used truth, even a scripture, but put it in a anti-God context where Jesus was tempted to respond to God in doubt.

If you are reading the Bible, and praying to God for a better understanding, he will give it to you, i never said otherwise.

If you are praying to another "God" than that of the Bible it is also fair to say that you will not be getting "true" truth.

Are our "Gods" the same? Are we praying to the Same God for that truth?

These have been my questions.

The definition of deception: "a misleading falsehood"

How would something be misleading if it did not appear as the truth?

Are we not praying to two seperate "Gods"? I have been trying to figure that one out all day...there is the one God of the Bible and the three of the BOM, right?

Truth is not in all things, if that were truly the case, there would be no need for Mormon missionaries.

Evolution is a theory, and God is unchanging. He is the same today, yesterday, and forever.

If this were truly the case, then the BOM must have been a fraud.

For example; I am greatly disappointed that traditional trinitarian Christians would not allow anyone to believe in an non-trinitarian G-d with out threat of life and property for over 1500 years. I am also disappointed that traditional trinitarian Christians denied common people access to scripture for hundreds of years.

I would agree that love is how God is reflected in his people.

But to insinuate that love alone is a testament to that religions correct understanding of God and therefore ultimate salvation would mean that Wiccans, Muslims, Jehovas whitnesses, etc. all serve the same God....to that I would disagree.

I DO pray for understanding of the scriptue. It is called his "living word" because he speaks to us through it. Through prayer and humility our understanding deepens, but you must not confuse this with what I have been trying to point out for awhile now.

He only instructs prayer to believers who lack wisdom. Wisdom is the proper use of knowledge, not the acquisition of knowledge.

"You acquire true spiritual knowledge from the Bible, not your heart. You pray about the truth you've learned from the Bible for a better understanding and ask God to teach you how to apply properly what He's already shown you therein."

You do not pray to the God of new books to "see" if they are from God...That is unbiblical

I find your opinion rather odd. I do not believe anyone can seek truth from any false G-d. You seem to believe this but I do not know from where you got such a doctrine. I do not know of anyone in scripture that received truth from any other source than G-d.

You are correct about one thing - Satan used scripture to miss-lead those that worship scriptures rather than G-d as the source of truth. Jesus indicated the the scriptures testify of him and that he was the source of truth. Therefore the scriptures are not the source of truth but a witness that G-d is the source of truth. I do not believe your understanding of G-d and the bible is correct. Your quote "You acquire true spiritual knowledge from he Bible" May sound true but I do not believe it to be so. I believe you acquire true spiritual knowledge from G-d. If someone has truth they acquired it from G-d not from some other source - including the Bible. Is that not what Jesus said to Peter? I think your "worship" of scripture as the source of truth is in vein. If you do not worship the scriptures as a source of truth then please be more clear in what you say because it appears to me to be exactly what you intend to imply.

BTW - evolution is a fact not just a theory as you say. You were once a single cell zygote that evolved into the person you are today. You are not a theory but a living thing that evolved or you would not have been borne of a father and mother. I regret that you have such difficulty understanding truth.

Thank you for considering and reading my posts and responding with your real opinion. Perhaps after more discussion we will understand each other better. For now it appears we must not see deep understanding but must clear up some of the surface stuff first.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

Jesus quoted from 24 different Old Testament books, I should have said.

Please show me where he quoted from "The Book of Enoch?"

Matt: chapters 5-7 contain many concepts and teachings from the Book of Enoch. In fact many New Testament scriptures are so similar to the Book of Enoch that for over a thousand years Trinitarian Christian scholars claimed the Book of Enoch was copied from the New Testament. When it was discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls that copies of the Book of Enoch existed hundreds of years before the New Testament we must in truth ask ourselves - Which is really copied from the other?

But since many worship the Bible as "the" source of truth many Christians today do not know how to seek truth from G-d or a witness from scriptures other than the Bible. I really believe you ought to ask G-d and allow Him to direct you - even if it does not agree with what modern "Scribes" tell you of scriptures.

The Traveler

[xanmad33]

The true "sprirt" of God is the spirit of truth, I agree

but "truth" can be used by the enemy.. This is exactly what the evil one did when he tempted Jesus (Matthew 4:1-11). He used truth, even a scripture, but put it in a anti-God context where Jesus was tempted to respond to God in doubt.

If you are reading the Bible, and praying to God for a better understanding, he will give it to you, i never said otherwise.

If you are praying to another "God" than that of the Bible it is also fair to say that you will not be getting "true" truth.

Are our "Gods" the same? Are we praying to the Same God for that truth?

These have been my questions.

The definition of deception: "a misleading falsehood"

How would something be misleading if it did not appear as the truth?

Are we not praying to two seperate "Gods"? I have been trying to figure that one out all day...there is the one God of the Bible and the three of the BOM, right?

Truth is not in all things, if that were truly the case, there would be no need for Mormon missionaries.

Evolution is a theory, and God is unchanging. He is the same today, yesterday, and forever.

If this were truly the case, then the BOM must have been a fraud.

I find your opinion rather odd. I do not believe anyone can seek truth from any false G-d. You seem to believe this but I do not know from where you got such a doctrine. I do not know of anyone in scripture that received truth from any other source than G-d.

How do you know your praying to the true God when you pray the prayer in Moroni?

If you are NOT praying to the one true God, then who are you praying to?

For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14 (KJV)

How is Satan transformed into an angel of light?

Because he uses partial truth to fool us.

All Christians must keep in mind that any prayers offered to anyone or anything other than God, constitute prayers and / or worship to demons. It opens the way for evil spirits to have access to that place or person. This is Biblical, look it up.

You are correct about one thing - Satan used scripture to miss-lead those that worship scriptures rather than G-d as the source of truth. Jesus indicated the the scriptures testify of him and that he was the source of truth. Therefore the scriptures are not the source of truth but a witness that G-d is the source of truth. I do not believe your understanding of G-d and the bible is correct. Your quote "You acquire true spiritual knowledge from he Bible" May sound true but I do not believe it to be so. I believe you acquire true spiritual knowledge from G-d. If someone has truth they acquired it from G-d not from some other source - including the Bible. Is that not what Jesus said to Peter? I think your "worship" of scripture as the source of truth is in vein. If you do not worship the scriptures as a source of truth then please be more clear in what you say because it appears to me to be exactly what you intend to imply.

lol, no Traveler, I do not worship scripture, but I do see the importance of bringing all "prophets" that preach another gospel back into it's light.

If Jesus indicated that scriptures testify of him and that he is the truth, dont you think it would then be reliable to learn about him from them?

Why would Jesus tell us to look to scripture to learn about him if we could not do so?

I agree that the scriptures are not the source of truth, but that Gods spirit living in it is.

God is the source of the truth we find in scripture.

I personally believe I have done a very good job of showing that to you T, and of warning you of the importance of seeking a Biblical understanding before another book.

BTW - evolution is a fact not just a theory as you say. You were once a single cell zygote that evolved into the person you are today. You are not a theory but a living thing that evolved or you would not have been borne of a father and mother. I regret that you have such difficulty understanding truth.

Why is it called the "theory" rather than fact of evolution? Ilbeit that it may be the best explanation scientifically as of yet, but it is still a theory at best.

Refer back to your latest biology book for clarification, I just looked at mine.

My problem with evolution has nothing to do with this discussion, I only spoke of it because you said that God was truth in evolution, and I was telling you no, God does not change.

I understood your reference to God and evolution as comparative of there nature?

[xanmad33]

Matt: chapters 5-7 contain many concepts and teachings from the Book of Enoch. In fact many New Testament scriptures are so similar to the Book of Enoch that for over a thousand years Trinitarian Christian scholars claimed the Book of Enoch was copied from the New Testament. When it was discovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls that copies of the Book of Enoch existed hundreds of years before the New Testament we must in truth ask ourselves - Which is really copied from the other?

But since many worship the Bible as "the" source of truth many Christians today do not know how to seek truth from G-d or a witness from scriptures other than the Bible. I really believe you ought to ask G-d and allow Him to direct you - even if it does not agree with what modern "Scribes" tell you of scriptures.

The Traveler

Hmm... that's speculation at best

Even though Enoch contains at least one divine truth, that doesn't mean it should have been a part of Scripture. It is not sufficient for a book to contain God’s word; it must be entirely what God wants in Scripture. The writings of Wesley, Luther, and Calvin contain a great deal of God’s truth too, but that doesn't mean any of them are without error

Jude is the only place I am aware of a quote from this book and that doesn't mean at ALL that Enoch was inspired. In fact, Paul quoted the pagan philosopher Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that doesn't mean that Epimenides was inspired.

Because other books are quoted in the Scripture does not mean that those other books are inspired Words of God. When Jesus and the apostles quote the Old Testament, the Jewish nation as a whole had already accepted them as being inspired. Within those six inspired books were references to other books that contained various tidbits of factual information.

[skalenfehl]

How do you know your praying to the true God when you pray the prayer in Moroni?

If you are NOT praying to the one true God, then who are you praying to?

In light of what of what Andrew777 said in the first thread, it never occurred to me that other Christians believe that we pray to someone other than the traditional Christian God. While we are definitely unique and peculiar by comparison, I've never once believed that all traditional Christians prayed to a different God, but rather see Him in a different light.

As far as how I know I am praying to the one true God, my Father in Heaven? I can never explain it any better than I have explained since the beginning of our discussions. But I do know that it is the same God who blesses you with the same rain and sunshine that He blesses me with. He is the same God who loves me just as much as he loves you. That is about as simple in terms as I can make it.

Best. :)

[xanmad33]

In light of what of what Andrew777 said in the first thread, it never occurred to me that other Christians believe that we pray to someone other than the traditional Christian God. While we are definitely unique and peculiar by comparison, I've never once believed that all traditional Christians prayed to a different God, but rather see Him in a different light.

As far as how I know I am praying to the one true God, my Father in Heaven? I can never explain it any better than I have explained since the beginning of our discussions. But I do know that it is the same God who blesses you with the same rain and sunshine that He blesses me with. He is the same God who loves me just as much as he loves you. That is about as simple in terms as I can make it.

Best. :)

I know you believe that Skalen, and I have so much respect for you.

I'm not saying you do or you don't --I started this thread to find out the answer to that question.

[skalenfehl]

Then I have one more question for you. Is it a frightful notion to pray to the "Mormon God" (Father in Heaven) and ask Him if He is the same God as yours and if He is also your Father in Heaven as He is mine and trust that you will not be deceived? Would you know the difference? Can you discern between the fruits of the adversary and the fruits of the Lord or the fruits of the Holy Spirit?

Maybe that is the next first step.

[skalenfehl]

Either that, or next time you pray to your God, ask Him if He is the same as my God.

[xanmad33]

Then I have one more question for you. Is it a frightful notion to pray to the "Mormon God" (Father in Heaven) and ask Him if He is the same God as yours and if He is also your Father in Heaven as He is mine and trust that you will not be deceived? Would you know the difference? Can you discern between the fruits of the adversary and the fruits of the Lord or the fruits of the Holy Spirit?

Maybe that is the next first step.

That is something I could never do.

If indeed we serve the same God, then could't I just ask the God of the Bible?

I believe I do know the difference and discernment is one of my gifts

But I am not here to render my personal judgements, I am here to ask some honest questions, and gain a better insight into how you have come to the conclusions you have.

I think very highly of you Skalen, you have been very loving in our heated disagreements :) I appreciate that more than you know

[xanmad33]

Either that, or next time you pray to your God, ask Him if He is the same as my God.

I have done this Skalen, with all my heart.

[skalenfehl]

Then please, ask the God of the Bible. If you rally are here to find the answer to the question that you have been asking since the beginning, "How do you know?", then ask your God. But are you prepared to live according to that answer? I understand the gravity of that question for it is the worth of your salvation, even your very soul.

[xanmad33]

Either that, or next time you pray to your God, ask Him if He is the same as my God.

Why can't you do this? If it's the same God why can't you ask him?

Just direct your prayer to the God of the Bible?

[xanmad33]

Then please, ask the God of the Bible. If you rally are here to find the answer to the question that you have been asking since the beginning, "How do you know?", then ask your God. But are you prepared to live according to that answer? I understand the gravity of that question for it is the worth of your salvation, even your very soul.

I am keenly aware of the gravity of the situation.

[skalenfehl]

Because I have, too. I feel it now even as I type this. I testify and witness that they are one and the same. My Father in Heaven is your Father in Heaven. I know it with every fiber of my being.

[xanmad33]

what will happen to me skalen according to your beliefs if I never become Mormon?

[skalenfehl]

what will happen to me skalen according to your beliefs if I never become Mormon?

I can answer by saying this. Not all Mormons will earn their celestial reward. I can't even say if I will. But I can say that I try to live worthily by keeping all the promises that I made when i was baptized by the authority to act in God's name.

I don't honestly know what will happen to you because I honestly don't know what will happen to me. But I do know that we have the same potential to inherit the Celestial Kingdom.

[xanmad33]

how do I become an invisible user like you Skalen?

[xanmad33]

what about the verse in the Bible that assures you of your salvation?

You are not sure of it?

If I never become Mormon, will I go to hell?

[skalenfehl]

It's in your user CP. Top left of the menu bar next to FAQ. Sometimes the chatters are looking for mods to open up the chat and I'm in and out a lot so I can't sit in the chat room for extended periods of time.

[xanmad33]

Well Skalen if I was ever going to listen to anyone about being a Mormon, it would be you.

Your the only one who has shown complete love in all you posts...

I also feel like you consider what I say, that you don't just try to hammer me away, so thank you for that, it's refreshing

[xanmad33]

Thanks now I too am a ninja

[skalenfehl]

what about the verse in the Bible that assures you of your salvation?

You are not sure of it?

If I never become Mormon, will I go to hell?

It's interesting to take a position of presumption. I can do all the God asks of me as the Bible says, and be assured of salvation. But I don't know what tomorrow brings. What if I sin and lose hope or just give up the fight and not finish the race? I don't plan on it, though. But I do plan to be saved.

We also believe that in God's Kingdom are many mansions. There are three degrees of glory. The Celestial Kingdom, The Terrestrial Kingdom and the Telestial Kingdom. Those who live the law of each glory will continue on that path to inherit that glory.

Hell is knowing what you could have had and passed it up. That is the lake of fire and brimstone, that eternal knowledge of what one passes up or rejects. If a person does not want to inherit the Celestial glory then he will not obey those laws.

Each of those is a degree of glory or salvation. We will all inherit one of those glories, save a very few like Cain, who will inherit outer darkness or what we call perdition.

[xanmad33]

You know none of that is Biblical in ANY way right?