Alma 7:20

[MaidservantX]

"I perceive that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he cannot walk in crooked paths; neither doth he vary from that which he hath said; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal round."

I have been studying Alma chapter 7 for a couple of weeks or more now, very slowly, bit by bit, and have found several interesting things that just delight me. I hope some of you will have some insight into this particular verse (20).

Alma makes four statements. They are similar, and yet there are subtle differences to each of them.

he cannot walk in crooked paths

he doth not vary from that which he hath said

neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left

or from that which is right to that which is wrong

We could spend time on each of those statements showing the similarities and differences of each and how they are to be taken together and what they show up about the nature of God and the nature of his work; and therefore ourselves. Feel free to riff on it if you like.

However I would like to point out another item. I will introduce that by having us recall that many times we find ourselves wondering about "changes" and how they can come from an "unchangeable" God. The doctrine of the gospel teaches us that God is unchangeable, period. But we notice many things in history, life and the administration of the gospel (among other things) that have changed or seem to -- so we wonder what we are to understand about this.

In verse 20 Alma does not use the term unchangeable and does not apply it to God (I can't recall at the moment if he does in other spots in chapter 7). However with these four statements WITHOUT binding a definition of doctrine by the use of the word 'unchangeable', he does show us the commitments that God has. We can trust God with these (four) commitments. We can trust, in a word, that he will always do what is right. So knowing that he will ALWAYS ("unchangeably") do what is right, we can trust that he might very well make some of the changes that we do see happening in the history of the church (among other things), because he understands all situations and what to do in them.

That is well enough understanding on its own. However Alma ends with this phrase: THEREFORE, his course is one eternal round.

This is amazing. The paradox is placed before us plainly. Those straight paths -- we imagine them straight before us; but Alma says they are round. A 'round' is dynamic (changing but never changeable?). There is so much in what an "eternal round" could be and means. And Alma uses the word "Therefore"; not "but" or "also". He makes the four statements of the commitment and nature of God and then he says that this straightness of the path IS the "course" and the "eternal round". I am not sure I am articulating this the way I want to and am thinking it. I need to go to church now, and I will come back and say more if I think I need to.

But it is your turn! :)

[skalenfehl]

1 Ne. 10: 19

19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.

Alma 7: 20

20 I perceive that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he cannot walk in crooked paths; neither doth he vary from that which he hath said; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal round.

Alma 37: 12

12 And it may suffice if I only say they are preserved for a wise purpose, which purpose is known unto God; for he doth counsel in wisdom over all his works, and his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round.

D&C 3: 2

2 For God doth not walk in crooked paths, neither doth he turn to the right hand nor to the left, neither doth he vary from that which he hath said, therefore his paths are straight, and his course is one eternal round.

D&C 35: 1

1 Listen to the voice of the Lord your God, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, whose course is one eternal round, the same today as yesterday, and forever.

[Guest tomk]

"I perceive that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he cannot walk in crooked paths; neither doth he vary from that which he hath said; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal round."

I have been studying Alma chapter 7 for a couple of weeks or more now, very slowly, bit by bit, and have found several interesting things that just delight me. I hope some of you will have some insight into this particular verse (20).

Alma makes four statements. They are similar, and yet there are subtle differences to each of them.

he cannot walk in crooked paths

he doth not vary from that which he hath said

neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left

or from that which is right to that which is wrong

We could spend time on each of those statements showing the similarities and differences of each and how they are to be taken together and what they show up about the nature of God and the nature of his work; and therefore ourselves. Feel free to riff on it if you like.

However I would like to point out another item. I will introduce that by having us recall that many times we find ourselves wondering about "changes" and how they can come from an "unchangeable" God. The doctrine of the gospel teaches us that God is unchangeable, period. But we notice many things in history, life and the administration of the gospel (among other things) that have changed or seem to -- so we wonder what we are to understand about this.

In verse 20 Alma does not use the term unchangeable and does not apply it to God (I can't recall at the moment if he does in other spots in chapter 7). However with these four statements WITHOUT binding a definition of doctrine by the use of the word 'unchangeable', he does show us the commitments that God has. We can trust God with these (four) commitments. We can trust, in a word, that he will always do what is right. So knowing that he will ALWAYS ("unchangeably") do what is right, we can trust that he might very well make some of the changes that we do see happening in the history of the church (among other things), because he understands all situations and what to do in them.

That is well enough understanding on its own. However Alma ends with this phrase: THEREFORE, his course is one eternal round.

This is amazing. The paradox is placed before us plainly. Those straight paths -- we imagine them straight before us; but Alma says they are round. A 'round' is dynamic (changing but never changeable?). There is so much in what an "eternal round" could be and means. And Alma uses the word "Therefore"; not "but" or "also". He makes the four statements of the commitment and nature of God and then he says that this straightness of the path IS the "course" and the "eternal round". I am not sure I am articulating this the way I want to and am thinking it. I need to go to church now, and I will come back and say more if I think I need to.

But it is your turn! :)

What tremendous insights! I could feel God speaking through your words! I rejoice that your mind is being opened by the Light of God.

As I read your words, the thought came into my mind:

WE CHANGE AS WE GET CLOSER TO GOD

He is unchangeable -- BUT -- as any loving Father would, He gives us His unchangeable truth in a way that we, as toddling children, can comprehend. In this process His ultimate truth is not changing, just our understanding of it is maturing.

His course being "one eternal round" speaks to the pattern of the scriptures.

There is a pattern throughout all of scripture, which is this:

THOSE WHO OBEY HIS WORDS ARE BROUGHT INTO HIS PRESENCE, ONE BY ONE.

This is what it means to receive the Second Comforter.

[skalenfehl]

My understanding of this eternal principle (if I can even put it down before it evaporates from my finite mind) is the fact that our Father in Heaven is eternal. There was never a beginning and there is never an end. But from or perspective we find ourselves a part of this straight line walking forward. Now keep in mind this is just my crude example. Imagine you have been walking a straight line forever, but if you zoom out far enough (infinitely) you will see that the straight line you are walking could be compared to an infinitely large metaphorical "slinky" except that both ends go on forever. Forgive my silly analogy. What I mean is, consider what God told Moses:

Moses 1: 33-39

33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many.

35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.

36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content.

37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.

38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.

39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

So you can see that the Lord's course, His purpose and his exaltation is forever. We are a minute and a finite part of that course. I hope this makes sense. It is the only way I can explain it.

[Guest tomk]

"All things denote there is a God..."

When I look towards the horizon, it appears to me to be a straight line on a flat surface. That is my current reality. Duh, I know the earth is round, but still, that is my reality when I look towards the horizon. And if I pick a point of interest, and walk to that object, I discover that I can see things I never could see before from my previous vantage point. And as I pull away from that scene (picture the computer software Google Earth) I can see that the earth IS round...one eternal round.

So it is with gospel truths. They are ever expanding our view. When we obey them it is just like walking towards that object on the horizon. Sometimes it seems like that object is THE ANSWER TO ALL QUESTIONS. But when we arrive at the object, we comprehend that there is still more, and that the object in mind was only the beginning.

Pretty cool stuff.

[Guest tomk]

I should also note that, were I to circumvent the "eternal round" and return to the point at where I started -- I would arrive at that point with new knowledge and a fresh perspective and an increased understanding (as many world travellers have noticed) so that I don't see my "beginning" in the same way as I did before. In fact I realize it was not the beginning I thought it was, but just a point on a much longer continuum!

[Guest tomk]

Jacob 4: 8

8 Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him; wherefore, brethren, despise not the revelations of God.

Moses 1: 5

5 Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.

God rewards the faithful. Continue in your studies, and God will reward you as He promises.

[MaidservantX]

I should also note that, were I to circumvent the "eternal round" and return to the point at where I started -- I would arrive at that point with new knowledge and a fresh perspective and an increased understanding (as many world travellers have noticed) so that I don't see my "beginning" in the same way as I did before. In fact I realize it was not the beginning I thought it was, but just a point on a much longer continuum!

Even though I only "quoted" this blurb from tomk, I read through all of both of your posts, and I think that I share much of the understanding that you two do. Thanks for all the other verses, skal! :)

This process that you describe here tomk, I have experienced again and again and again. It is kind of fun now, because I am expecting it. If I do not understand a certain doctrine or principle -- sometimes because it seems too simple to me -- then my Father leads me along and I learn a lot of "deep" stuff, but it leads me right back around to where I exclaim, "Oh, but look at the simplicity of it!" Ha ha. Or something like that; and I appreciate the simplicity because of the more I have learned, though. (Sometimes that process takes years.)

I was just hit by this verse, because I knew that there were scriptures that discussed strait and straight paths. And I knew that there were scriptures that discussed the "eternal round". I guess I just had never quite realized they were the same scriptures! It seems that you cannot have one without the other; that they actually are the same thing. You two said it better with your analogies. And, yes, tomk, I was glad you reminded me that God is not the one changing, he is drawing us to him with all the changes that have to take place in us, through laws that we keep (obedience), and I am glad you reminded me of the journey to His Presence that I am on.

[WillowTheWhisp]

It's hardly surprising that Jesus taught in parables is it? I find it hard to explain abstract principles even when I think I know what I mean. I was thinking of a round straight line and trying to work out how I would explain it. I thought of a ring like a wedding ring. If we look at it from the top we see a circle, a round thing. But if we look at it from the side it's straight. If we were small enough to walk on the top edge we would see ourselves as walking in a circle, yet if we walked around sideways on we would see ourselves as walking in a straight line - and yet we would be walking in exactly the same direction! I think this is similar to our perspective and Heavenly Father's perspective where he sees the whole thing and we only see part of it from where we actually are and where we are depends on how it looks to us.

[Guest tomk]

I've really enjoyed what has been shared here.

Whether we realize it or not -- we're talking about the "mysteries of God" here. For a long time I thought that the mysteries had to be "mysterious" or "secret" somehow. And they are, but not in the way I thought.

I can't put words to it exactly (that's impossible) but the closest I can describe it is this. We're fallen men and women. We are incapable of understanding God unaided. Realizing this is the beginning of humility. Not realizing this is the reason why a lot of otherwise very Christian posters come here and just don't get it!!!

They don't "get it" because they are reading our words alone, and only our words. Were they to read our words, combined with the companionship of the Holy Ghost, the true and actual meaning of our words would be revealed to them! In other words, it's not their fault. And it's not our fault. They could have the meaning revealed to them, but only GOD can do that, and it has to be according to His will and pleasure!! And no matter how much you pray for a thing, if you're not ready, you're not ready!! God wants to reveal EVERYTHING to us -- in time.

Jer. 31: 33

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This is describing God revealing the mysteries to us. He writes it upon our hearts. That is how understanding comes!

This same phenomenon is being described whenever you hear the words "not utterable" or "they had no utterance." The person to whom it has been revealed GETS IT. But they can't describe it with words. They can try, but not really do an adequate job of it? Why? Well, because the witness comes through the Holy Ghost!!

2 Cor. 9: 15

15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

2 Cor. 12: 4

4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter [WITHOUT THE HOLY GHOST].

1 Pet. 1: 8

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

Hel. 5: 44

44 And Nephi and Lehi were in the midst of them; yea, they were encircled about; yea, they were as if in the midst of a flaming fire, yet it did harm them not, neither did it take hold upon the walls of the prison; and they were filled with that joy which is unspeakable and full of glory.

3 Ne. 26: 18

18 And many of them saw and heard unspeakable things, which are not lawful to be written.

3 Ne. 28: 13

13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.

D&C 121: 26

26 God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;

Thanks for letting me share these gems. They are precious to me!

Thanks for letting me share this!

[Hemidakota]

"I perceive that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he cannot walk in crooked paths; neither doth he vary from that which he hath said; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal round."

I have been studying Alma chapter 7 for a couple of weeks or more now, very slowly, bit by bit, and have found several interesting things that just delight me. I hope some of you will have some insight into this particular verse (20).

Alma makes four statements. They are similar, and yet there are subtle differences to each of them.

he cannot walk in crooked paths

he doth not vary from that which he hath said

neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left

or from that which is right to that which is wrong

We could spend time on each of those statements showing the similarities and differences of each and how they are to be taken together and what they show up about the nature of God and the nature of his work; and therefore ourselves. Feel free to riff on it if you like.

However I would like to point out another item. I will introduce that by having us recall that many times we find ourselves wondering about "changes" and how they can come from an "unchangeable" God. The doctrine of the gospel teaches us that God is unchangeable, period. But we notice many things in history, life and the administration of the gospel (among other things) that have changed or seem to -- so we wonder what we are to understand about this.

In verse 20 Alma does not use the term unchangeable and does not apply it to God (I can't recall at the moment if he does in other spots in chapter 7). However with these four statements WITHOUT binding a definition of doctrine by the use of the word 'unchangeable', he does show us the commitments that God has. We can trust God with these (four) commitments. We can trust, in a word, that he will always do what is right. So knowing that he will ALWAYS ("unchangeably") do what is right, we can trust that he might very well make some of the changes that we do see happening in the history of the church (among other things), because he understands all situations and what to do in them.

That is well enough understanding on its own. However Alma ends with this phrase: THEREFORE, his course is one eternal round.

This is amazing. The paradox is placed before us plainly. Those straight paths -- we imagine them straight before us; but Alma says they are round. A 'round' is dynamic (changing but never changeable?). There is so much in what an "eternal round" could be and means. And Alma uses the word "Therefore"; not "but" or "also". He makes the four statements of the commitment and nature of God and then he says that this straightness of the path IS the "course" and the "eternal round". I am not sure I am articulating this the way I want to and am thinking it. I need to go to church now, and I will come back and say more if I think I need to.

But it is your turn! :)

HIS course is one eternal round and without end. [see Moses 1:4] Even Enoch saw this as he described in Moses 7:30, "Thy curtains are stretched out still."

GOD does not deviate as man would in any plan. It always the same as yesterday, today, and tomorrow for HIS creation. We should follow that example.