Why does God allow so many to be misled in His name?

[Misshalfway]

Who says you have to answer the question about religion today?

Sometimes I think God is found outside of religion. Religion is just a tool.

[Misshalfway]

One more thot....

I think religion itself is flawed. And it always will be. It is kinda like parenthood.....haven't met a perfect parent yet. But I also think that perhaps we learn more...gain more experiential knowledge thru imperfect situations. I think the perfection is found in the very imperfection we fight against.

[DigitalShadow]

Who says you have to answer the question about religion today?

Sometimes I think God is found outside of religion. Religion is just a tool.

I like your analogy and tend to agree with it, but to put myself in that analogy I would have to say that I'm staring at a tool shed with a variety of different tools and no idea how to use any of them.

One more thot....

I think religion itself is flawed. And it always will be. It is kinda like parenthood.....haven't met a perfect parent yet. But I also think that perhaps we learn more...gain more experiential knowledge thru imperfect situations. I think the perfection is found in the very imperfection we fight against.

Perfect is such a subjective word because everyone has different criteria for perfection in different areas. Perfection as a word simply means without flaw, but we all have different ideas for what constitutes a flaw.

[Guest tomk]

Not sure if this has been touched upon, but a third of the "hosts of heaven" were cast out, because they followed Lucifer and tried to destroy the agency of man.

Those were God's children, for crying-out loud. He loves them still. But agency is paramount. This universe would revert to total chaos if agency were not permitted.

So, in that light -- God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He obeys eternal law and He MUST allow us our agency.

So, the question "Why are so many allowed to be misled 'in His Name'" (not my word choice, but "okay") is answerable by:

He must allow it

To do otherwise would violate THEIR agency. We are free to interpret what we feel from God (or Satan, as the case may be) any way we want to. If we desire to be good God promises we'll be led aright. Many people claim to be seeking God's will but they have ulterior motives (power, dominion, status, whatever). Outwardly they appear "righteous" but inwardly are ravening wolves.

That's life. God must allow life to be this way for us. It's a test.

We can be sure that He will take all of of this into account. Our actual desires for good will be part of that judgement.

Some don't like to admit this, but we all have the Light of Christ. We all know right from wrong. Aetheists know that killing is wrong, that they should not lie, or commit adultery. Deep down they know it. But we have choice. We can choose to ignore the Voice of our conscience.

God will sort it out. He has to. He's the only one who can do it correctly. He's the only one who knows our deep desires and motivations.

[Misshalfway]

I like your analogy and tend to agree with it, but to put myself in that analogy I would have to say that I'm staring at a tool shed with a variety of different tools and no idea how to use any of them.

I am smiling cuz I felt this way sooooo many times! I think of Nephi who didn't even have the tools....he had to make them himself! (building the boat....) At least you have the tools in front of you.

Anyway, I think that is what faith is all about. Not knowing how to use the tool..but picking it up and using it anyway...knowing that the "how" will make itself known.

Perfect is such a subjective word because everyone has different criteria for perfection in different areas. Perfection as a word simply means without flaw, but we all have different ideas for what constitutes a flaw.

This might sound weird, but I actually find comfort in that. I don't have to figure it all out. I can't figure it all out. So, that frees me up to figure out what I can. And then I leave the rest to God and his timelines and his will for me. Consider the lillies.......the don't spin.

I agree with you Tomk. God will sort it all out with more love and mercy and wisdom than we can even imagine.

And DS, you have a goodness in you. I feel it every time you post. I am not worried for you. It will all work itself out.....as you move forward with courage to pick up the tools and use them!

[DigitalShadow]

Not sure if this has been touched upon, but a third of the "hosts of heaven" were cast out, because they followed Lucifer and tried to destroy the agency of man.

Those were God's children, for crying-out loud. He loves them still. But agency is paramount. This universe would revert to total chaos if agency were not permitted.

So, in that light -- God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He obeys eternal law and He MUST allow us our agency.

So, the question "Why are so many allowed to be misled 'in His Name'" (not my word choice, but "okay") is answerable by:

He must allow it

To do otherwise would violate THEIR agency. We are free to interpret what we feel from God (or Satan, as the case may be) any way we want to. If we desire to be good God promises we'll be led aright. Many people claim to be seeking God's will but they have ulterior motives (power, dominion, status, whatever). Outwardly they appear "righteous" but inwardly are ravening wolves.

That's life. God must allow life to be this way for us. It's a test.

We can be sure that He will take all of of this into account. Our actual desires for good will be part of that judgement.

Some don't like to admit this, but we all have the Light of Christ. We all know right from wrong. Aetheists know that killing is wrong, that they should not lie, or commit adultery. Deep down they know it. But we have choice. We can choose to ignore the Voice of our conscience.

God will sort it out. He has to. He's the only one who can do it correctly. He's the only one who knows our deep desires and motivations.

Okay, the way I understand it is that "free agency" means that God can not force us to do anything. I can believe that and I understand the concept, but it has nothing to do with my question. I'm saying that I know that many people (including me) who are honestly asking God which church is correct with no ulterior motives, simply a pure desire for the truth and God either remains silent or leads them to different churches.

I guess, more accurately put, my question is: If people really are tapping into some universal source when praying, why does it lead them in such different directions? Simply saying people who got it "wrong" had ulterior motives does not account for the myriad of churches all with some true believers who honestly think they have a relationship with God. God does not need to violate free agency to make himself known.

[Misshalfway]

Is the leading of people in different directions wrong??? Now I must qualify this question and place it into the context of "really and truly being led by God." I say that as I laugh about the three college guys who said they prayed and KNEW that I was to be their wife. HA HA!

[DigitalShadow]

Is the leading of people in different directions wrong??? Now I must qualify this question and place it into the context of "really and truly being led by God." I say that as I laugh about the three college guys who said they prayed and KNEW that I was to be their wife. HA HA!

You laugh about that but either they were lying or they truly believed it. If they truly believed it, then that means the "answer" to their prayer was merely a confirmation of what they already strongly desired and just proves my point that there's no way to tell the difference between God speaking to you and your brain making you think someone is talking back.

[Guest tomk]

Okay, the way I understand it is that "free agency" means that God can not force us to do anything. I can believe that and I understand the concept, but it has nothing to do with my question. I'm saying that I know that many people (including me) who are honestly asking God which church is correct with no ulterior motives, simply a pure desire for the truth and God either remains silent or leads them to different churches.

I guess, more accurately put, my question is: If people really are tapping into some universal source when praying, why does it lead them in such different directions? Simply saying people who got it "wrong" had ulterior motives does not account for the myriad of churches all with some true believers who honestly think they have a relationship with God. God does not need to violate free agency to make himself known.

Why are you so concerned about what other people are doing or why they are being misled?

Swimmers and runners are taught to not look to their right or their left, but to focus on the goal ahead of them. Races have been lost because, at some point during the race, the person became distracted, and it cost them a tenth of a second. That is all that is needed to lose the race.

God's gospel is not a democracy. It is eternal truth. God is not responsible for making sure we INTERPRET His truth correctly. He is only responsible for delivering it to us. And He does. And He does it quite effectively. Sometimes He teaches as much by His silence as He does by parting the Red Sea to save a bunch of scared children.

You say that people are being misled and you want to ask why God allows it.

What would you have Him do differently?

If God implemented your "better idea" -- what would be the result? Would agency be preserved (really think about this). Would actual growth occur?

Many times, when people finally discover the truth -- that new way of life is greatly enforced by the realization that how they were living before was GOOD -- but now they have something better. We taste the bitter in order to prize the sweet. That may be an answer to you question of "Why does God allow them to be misled?" He allows it FOR A SEASON so that when they finally DO find His truth, they can tell the difference.

God is at the helm. He does not need our help in steering the boat. Everything IS done for a reason, even that which, to our eyes, seems to be heading in the wrong direction. Sometimes to build up enough speed to jump across you have to take a few steps backwards first.

[Misshalfway]

Perhaps the problem is learning to recognize the communications of God. I know so many get confused between ways to determine truth. Use your emotions. NO! Use your intellect! NO! Only read the Bible! This can be very confusing and frustrating to say the least.

The Holy Ghost will cut thru all the confusion. It WILL lay controversy and contradiction to rest. It has for me -- many times.

I think the challenge for you is learning to listen to a voice you have never recognized before. Perhaps there are experiences in your youth...... where you felt led, or warned, or guided? Perhaps you have discounted these and therefore can't remember. The Holy Spirit's job, well one of them, is to "bring to your rememberance; whatsoever I have said unto you." (john 14 :26)

[Canuck Mormon]

Here's what I think, so take it for what it's worth. I feel we are here to gain knowledge. If we are told what is right, we haven't gained any knowledge. We have the answer, but gained nothing. If I spend a long time on a problem and solve it myself, I feel a great sense of accomplishment. If someone tells me the answer while I'm working it out, I don't get the same sense. Am I making sense? Whether it's the Catholics that got it right or we do. We need to figure that our for ourselves. God can push us in certain directions, but it's up to us to interpret the directions given. People's interpretations lead them to different places, not necessarily the wrong places, but different places. I hope this made sense to you.

[Misshalfway]

I like your analogy and tend to agree with it, but to put myself in that analogy I would have to say that I'm staring at a tool shed with a variety of different tools and no idea how to use any of them.

Perfect is such a subjective word because everyone has different criteria for perfection in different areas. Perfection as a word simply means without flaw, but we all have different ideas for what constitutes a flaw.

You laugh about that but either they were lying or they truly believed it. If they truly believed it, then that means the "answer" to their prayer was merely a confirmation of what they already strongly desired and just proves my point that there's no way to tell the difference between God speaking to you and your brain making you think someone is talking back.

Yes! Exactly! I actually think that one of them did feel he had the right spirit. But even so, I was given the right to choose. I could have been a good choice for him...and God told him so. But, he wasn't right for me. Remember my "that's not him" story???

And is that knowledge lost on this poor rejected guy? NO! Because perhaps he learned what kind of person to look for. Perhaps he learned to obey, even when the outcome wasn't favorable. Perhaps he thought it was the Spirit and later realized it was his own desires talking. Perhaps we both needed the experience to confirm our faith that God talks to man about the concerns of our lives. I think sometimes people want to be right so badly.....that they are afraid to be wrong....and so they justify themselves. I have done it before so I know.

[DigitalShadow]

Why are you so concerned about what other people are doing or why they are being misled?

Swimmers and runners are taught to not look to their right or their left, but to focus on the goal ahead of them. Races have been lost because, at some point during the race, the person became distracted, and it cost them a tenth of a second. That is all that is needed to lose the race.

I am not of the belief that life is a race, so I don't think that analogy really applies. When playing basketball if you don't watch all the people around you and only focus on yourself, you're likely to get hit in the head with the ball. See, I can throw out sports analogies that don't apply too :) (yes, that was sarcasm, I hope you can take a joke cause no offense was meant by it)

God's gospel is not a democracy. It is eternal truth. God is not responsible for making sure we INTERPRET His truth correctly. He is only responsible for delivering it to us. And He does. And He does it quite effectively. Sometimes He teaches as much by His silence as He does by parting the Red Sea to save a bunch of scared children.

"God's gospel" is claimed eternal truth by man who is fallable. Forgive me for not believing the first person to tell me they know the will of God and how I should be following it without any evidence to back that claim up.

You say that people are being misled and you want to ask why God allows it.

What would you have Him do differently?

Keep good on His promise and tell the truth to anyone who honestly sought Him.

If God implemented your "better idea" -- what would be the result? Would agency be preserved (really think about this). Would actual growth occur?

Yes, it would be (and yes I've really thought about this). Knowing the truth and acting on it are two entirely different things which I think you are confusing in your free agency response. I know my parents, I can see them, touch them hear the words that come out of their mouth, but do I always obey them? No. I've disobeyed them before and later found out they were right all along and grew as a person because of it.

Many times, when people finally discover the truth -- that new way of life is greatly enforced by the realization that how they were living before was GOOD -- but now they have something better. We taste the bitter in order to prize the sweet. That may be an answer to you question of "Why does God allow them to be misled?" He allows it FOR A SEASON so that when they finally DO find His truth, they can tell the difference.

And many times they don't ever discover it. How does that help anyone?

God is at the helm. He does not need our help in steering the boat. Everything IS done for a reason, even that which, to our eyes, seems to be heading in the wrong direction. Sometime to build up enough speed to jump across you have to take a few steps backwards first.

From my point of view, no one is at the helm and we look for reason in everything because we have the need for there to be.

[MormonMama]

...to put myself in that analogy I would have to say that I'm staring at a tool shed with a variety of different tools and no idea how to use any of them.

But that does not mean that the tools are flawed or bad or invalid, does it? It simply means that your knowledge and/or experience are lacking.

I still can't change the brakes on my car. My dad has shown me how to do it probably a hundred times, but when I try to do it I just can't figure out what goes where. Even my sister can change her brakes. To them it is easy, but I just can't get it. Does that mean the process of changing the brakes is invalid? Of course not. So why can't I "get it"? Beats me.

[Misshalfway]

For what it is worth, this was my LDS gem today.

As faithful [members] of The Church of Jesus Christ of

Latter-day Saints, we have been blessed with the Holy Ghost. As we

invite the Savior into our lives, the Holy Ghost will bear witness to us of

the love which the Father and His Son, our Savior, have for each of us. But

feeling Their love is dependent not only on our desire but upon our actions

as well. And the actions we need to take are known to us: genuine prayer

that is specific and humble, followed by quiet listening for the Lord's

answers; regular scripture study and time to ponder what we read; and,

finally, a willingness to be introspective about ourselves and to trust in

the Lord's promise that He will 'make weak things become strong

unto [us]' (Ether 12:27)."

[MormonMama]

So, the question "Why are so many allowed to be misled 'in His Name'" (not my word choice, but "okay") is answerable by:

He must allow it

To do otherwise would violate THEIR agency. We are free to interpret what we feel from God (or Satan, as the case may be) any way we want to.

We must also remember that that agency also extends to those who are doing the misleading. Agency does not just require us to deal with the consequences of our own agency, but that of the agency of others as well.

[Misshalfway]

We must also remember that that agency also extends to those who are doing the misleading. Agency does not just require us to deal with the consequences of our own agency, but that of the agency of others as well.

Another goodie, MM! You are on a roll!

[rameumptom]

Is the leading of people in different directions wrong??? Now I must qualify this question and place it into the context of "really and truly being led by God." I say that as I laugh about the three college guys who said they prayed and KNEW that I was to be their wife. HA HA!

I believe they all may have received a confirmation of the Spirit. However, we all have to understand the Spirit through our 5 senses and understanding. They may have asked if you would be a true and righteous companion, and when they received an affirmative answer, misread it to mean you were meant to be their wife.

I've seen it before, one guy and 4 girls convinced he was the one the Lord had personally hand-picked for them. The bishop had to let them down that, while he was definitely a righteous man that God would be pleased for them to marry, it is still an issue of free agency, and not God's command on whom we should marry.

As ward mission leader several years ago, the elders and I taught a second discussion to a guy named, Alec. Alec said he had prayed, but did not receive an answer on Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. I asked him what he specifically had prayed about: "That God would show me the right way." So, I explained to him that the right way was being shown to him, as we were there with him, however that did not answer the questions of whether Joseph Smith was a true prophet or if the Book of Mormon was true. So we knelt down and prayed specifically about each, asking the Lord to reveal to us via the Holy Spirit if these were true. If they (JS and BoM) were true, to have the Spirit burn in our hearts a good feeling; but if not true, to give us a very negative feeling concerning this. After praying, he had his testimony of the gospel.

[MormonMama]

Another goodie, MM! You are on a roll!

Thanks! It happens once in awhile, lol!

[Guest tomk]

LOL "okay" -- "whatever, man" :)

I'll say it again:

All of your concerns and questions and lack of understanding would be best served by taking those kinds of things to God, instead of posting here.

Why do you keep lamenting to us why God won't answer you? Do we have a sign on our backs that says "We're responsible for your inability to communicate with God?"

We've told you how we have gotten our answers, but you dismiss it. You doubt that we have been answered truly. Well, that's easy for anyone to say. But from where I stand, you are not describing God's actual workings among the children of men, just your experience so far, which I am not able to change and am not responsible for.

But go on believing what you believe. You are the only person on the planet who's "got it right." Somehow God messed-up your internal wiring so that you cannot receive answers from Him. Yeah -- THAT'S REALITY. Or maybe you are the only one who is "sane" and the rest of us are crazy.

12 million members of the Church have it wrong. Is that it?

But you know what? I am not worried about what 12 million people are doing, or what 6 billion other people think or believe or follow or do. I have found God's truth for myself, by following what He prescribes. Anyone can do it. Anyone.

==============

Forgive my exasperation with you. I just don't know how to "get through to you" DS!!!!!!!

[Mathonihah]

No, nothing can be objectively "proven", but science shows things to be objectively true beyond a reasonable doubt for many things.

I have often wondered if I were born and indoctrinated into a particular church if I would eventually come to the same conclusion I'm at now. I think I probably would, but being taught something your entire life I can imagine how it would be hard to go against that.

My gut feeling tells me religion is wrong

Why ask then? If your gut tells you religion is wrong and your head tells you the same thing, why the doubt?

All any of us can do is follow our conscience, if you do that you are pretty much okay.

[Misshalfway]

We must also remember that that agency also extends to those who are doing the misleading. Agency does not just require us to deal with the consequences of our own agency, but that of the agency of others as well.

Good point. I usually feel a sense of peace, a feeling that tells me the matter is settled. No more need to question.

[DigitalShadow]

I'll say it again:

All of your concerns and questions and lack of understanding would be best served by taking those kinds of things to God, instead of posting here.

And I'll say what I've already said again too, I've already taken these questions to God and am awaiting His response, but until then I see no harm in conversing with people who already presumably "get it."

Why do you keep lamenting to us why God won't answer you? Do we have a sign on our backs that says "We're responsible for your inability to communicate with God?"

I'm not lamenting to anyone, just carrying on a philosophical discussion which may ultimately lead to insight.

We've told you how we have gotten our answers, but you dismiss it. You doubt that we have been answered truly. Well, that's easy for anyone to say. But from where I stand, you are not describing God's actual workings among the children of men, just your experience so far, which I am not able to change and am not responsible for.

You're telling me that you have received the answers from God and that anyone can who is honestly seeking the truth. I don't dismiss your answers, I simply want to experience them for myself just as you have.

But go on believing what you believe. You are the only person on the planet who's "got it right." Somehow God messed-up your internal wiring so that you cannot receive answers from Him. Yeah -- THAT'S REALITY. Or maybe you are the only one who is "sane" and the rest of us are crazy.

You are reading far too much into my statements. Unlike you, I don't even claim to have anything right, I'm just looking for answers.

12 million members of the Church have it wrong. Is that it?

Let me think about that... yes, I find it entirely possible 0.18% of the population is wrong, it is also entirely possible they are right.

But you know what? I am not worried about what 12 million people are doing, or what 6 billion other people think or believe or follow or do. I have found God's truth for myself, by following what He prescribes. Anyone can do it. Anyone.

I don't really care what they believe or follow either, billions of people sharing a belief could still be wrong, but it does suggest it could at least be worth looking into. I'm merely looking for explainations for what I observe in this world. You're telling me the answers go against what I observed so I am waiting for God to weigh in on the subject.

Forgive my exasperation with you. I just don't know how to "get through to you" DS!!!!!!!

Forgiven. I am a very patient and also stubborn person, I seem to inspire exasperation in many people (including my wife sometimes) :)

[DigitalShadow]

Why ask then? If your gut tells you religion is wrong and your head tells you the same thing, why the doubt?

All any of us can do is follow our conscience, if you do that you are pretty much okay.

Because I acknowledge that I could be wrong and the "gut" isn't always the most reliable source.

I do follow my conscience and I do think I will be okay, but many religious people seem to disagree.

[Hemidakota]

TO ALL - there is nothing wrong with a 'Doubting Thomas' [faith alone was not enough for him]. Eventually, after being shown physically, went on to become one considered in high-esteem with the Savior.