Why does God allow so many to be misled in His name?

[Dirk]

Sorry DS I misread your message completely the first time Now having a talk with God and Him answering you would be wonderful but it would be private between the two of you. I think if you got to speak to the Savior you would not mention it to many if any, try asking an apostle if they have spoken face to face with the Savior! When you got married ( I assume you are married) did you meet your wife the same day you married her or did you meet her first, got to know her better over time, build a friendship got to see what you like and what she liked about you and then got married. With other words first get to know the Savior, talk to him every day three times a day. It sounds like you are saying it is a right to have God speak to you when it actually is a privilege attained only when we have lived a certain way for a long time. Here in is the beauty of this gospel, you are here for a short time to make choices and to take responsibility for those choices and when you let yourself down and you stumble and fall and you confess to your heavenly father and you ask for an answer, the bright idea you get is most possibly God speaking to you .

[Guest tomk]

I recommend reading Alma 30, and see if any of the attitudes presented by Korihor ring true with you. You need not answer in here, but think about it.

Alma 30: 44

44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

In that light, is it God who is myopic and silent, or is it us?

Just because someone says they are doing "God's work" does not mean they actually are. They can be deceived.

The difference between those people and the Saints of God is that they actually do follow Him!

But knowing whether you are led by Him or not comes by doing what He says needs to be done in order to know.

A big part of that is humility and gratitude...LOOKING for evidence, instead of demanding or waiting for it to come to you.

I would suggest you begin a new thread and list the evidences that you see God working in your life. If you are unable to make such a list, that might be why God is withholding.

[Hemidakota]

A colossal individual who was deceived by an fallen angel, transformed a pagan culture into believing in a single deity, was Mohammed. After painstaking years of figuring out how this man received his testimony or conversion, it does not follow the same guidelines, which others receive that notable office [dispensation leading prophets]..

I do tribute Mohammed as a great man, as other great man of the past; who were effective in changing their own society.

[Elgama]

A colossal individual who was deceived by an fallen angel, transformed a pagan culture into believing in a single deity, was Mohammed. After painstaking years of figuring out how this man received his testimony or conversion, it does not follow the same guidelines, which others receive that notable office [dispensation leading prophets]..

I do tribute Mohammed as a great man, as other great man of the past; who were effective in changing their own society.

Are you sure he was deceived? I see it as God leading a society closer to him in belief during a time when the Dark Ages were underway. It wasn't time to bring the Church back but people could receive some light.

-Charley

[Andrew777]

Maybe some people do honestly ask and receive an answer but then warp and twist that message out of pride or want for personal power, just a thought.

[Hemidakota]

Mohammed was not educated man as most would believe. He could not read or write but depended on his close associates to record what he was given.

My problem with his notional conversion, it simply doesn't follow any similar pattern seen by the leading dispensational prophets. Receiving the Angel Gabriel in the Cave is not what GOD would give a man called to be his prophet. HE will initially appear unto that man in person or the Savior, as in the case of Moses - not an angel. Another problem, Christ is not the person whom the member need to mediate prior to entering into the presence of the GOD.

Afte reading the Koran, I see many striking parallel writings of OT and Book of Enoch. Some writings stand in oposition of truth today. Now, can GOD call others to the work? Yes! But they always followed the same unique calling card.

[DigitalShadow]

I recommend reading Alma 30, and see if any of the attitudes presented by Korihor ring true with you. You need not answer in here, but think about it.

Alma 30: 44

44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

I really don't see see how any of those things denote a creator. The planets and their movement denote a set of rules that matter follows, but to say that denotes a creator does not follow. This leads to the discussion I've had with many people that goes something like this:

Them: Look at everything around you? How did all that come about without a creator? You can't have organization without something more complex organizing it.

Me: Then who created the creator?

Them: God just IS.

Me: But you just said that there always has to be something more complex organizing it which would mean that the creator would have to have a creator and his creator would have to have a creator and so on...

Them: At some point you just have to accept that something just IS.

Me: My point exactly, why can't the set of rules governing the universe just BE. Adding another layer by saying there is a creator doesn't help any.

Them: Then how did life on this planet begin? There's a 1 in (insert huge number here) chance that the conditions would be right and the first life would come together.

Me: And how many planets do you think there are? It is true that life could be highly improbable to form on any given planet, but if you take into account how many planets exist, it becomes highly likely that life would exist on at least one planet of those countless planets in the universe.

Them: I still know there is a creator and nothing can change that.

Me: We'll just agree to disagree then.

[Hemidakota]

Creator had a Father until we can find the one who truly is the Christ.

How many atoms are there in your coporael form? Can you even fathom the number?

[Misshalfway]

So you contend that God gives truth to people in segments and what they do with it is up to them? I don't know that I agree with that given what I've seen, but I do thank you because that is the only direct answer to the question I've seen in the responding posts so far.

So, going on the assumption that God communicates with us through thoughts and feelings in bits and pieces what makes people so sure that THEIR church is true? I'm sure it was more than just a hint that led you to have faith, isn't it reasonable to assume that other people who have such strong faith in a different religion got more than just a hint that it was the right path for them? I do accept your theory as a possibility, but from my point of view, it isn't supported by the high level of inconsistency between messages people claim are from the divine.

I am not convinced that everyone who enters religion asks to know the truth. Just recently I was told that asking God wasn't important in discovering truth. I find that answer extremely misleading. But many believe it.

I can't know exactly what people pray for and how God answers them. I can't even guarantee that all people pray. I think intermingled with the truth are lots of assumptions. I think that there is much good in this world. There a wonderful churches in the world that do much good. There are some religions and philosophies that are so very enlightened. And some, sadly, have an agenda of oppression and suppression. I think sometimes because the see and feel truth that they make assumptions about the truth of a particular church or philosophy. Some fail to see the error mixed in with the truth. Some don't even know they can ask the question. Perhaps they become satisfied by their segment of the truth. I think there are many that never even ask the question. I also see that culture and family upbringing has much to do with the choices of many. Such social and familial and political pressure! It takes a great deal of courage to seek for truth.... and to withhold ones judgement on the details until God answers. That is one reason why I have such respect for you, DS.

Some are kept from the truth because of culture and politics. I taught one Chinese family who told me about the strict laws against having a Bible in your possession. Freedom of religion is a relatively new and western concept. I think in these cases, God gives as much truth as he can amidst these circumstances.

I can also talk from my imperfect experience with the Spirit of the Lord. There have been times when I have wanted something to be right or true. So much so that I justified myself in that action or position.....only to learn later that I was mistaken and needed to course correct. I wasn't evil for doing this. I just needed to learn. I needed the experience.... lots of experience with the spirit and testing it... and then learning trust in the Lord and not in the arm of the flesh. God let me be in ignorance for a time. Lots of times on lots of little insignificant issues. And the light comes usually when I desire it first. When I get tired of the ignorance or when I am hungry for more. He also keeps me from truth when I am lazy or sinful or when I can't be trusted with the responsibility. He is strict, the Lord is, about who receives all of his truth. There is much in the way of devotion and loyalty and trustworthiness. God has given me spiritual knowledge...... and has added that I should not share it with others. I have learned that the hard way. But remember also, that he is full of tender mercies. For those who hunger and thirst for truth, He makes a way for them to find it....in this life or the next.

The Book of Mormon helps me on this one too. I posted a little of 2 Nephi 29 on another thread earlier today. vs. 7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth

[DigitalShadow]

Maybe some people do honestly ask and receive an answer but then warp and twist that message out of pride or want for personal power, just a thought.

I would say that is a distinct possibility and that could be how other churches are started, but what about all the faithful followers that have nothing to gain and honestly want to know the truth?

[DigitalShadow]

How many atoms are there in your coporael form? Can you even fathom the number?

I would say roughly 1 x 10^28

If I felt like putting more time into it I could look up the percent of each element the human body contains and use their molar masses to get a much better approximation.

What is your point?

[Hemidakota]

You can speculate and hope to find some nice numerical value but in the end, you never know for sure, the exactness. The truth is exactness.

There is no known space without a kingdom. There is no kingdom without a Creator or a GOD. In the church, we are told only three kingdoms that relate to our known salvation but I tell you that there many below us as there are many above us.

[DigitalShadow]

You can speculate and hope to find some nice numerical value but in the end, you never know for sure, the exactness. The truth is exactness.

Just as you can speculate to the exactness of your interpretation of God's will, but in the end you are just another man making yet another claim that he has heard the word of God.

[Guest tomk]

I really don't see see how any of those things denote a creator

...

...

...

...

Luke Skywalker: "I don't believe it"

Yoda: "That is why you fail"

DS, I wish I could be more helpful. It seems like whatever I come up with, you always come back with, "I don't see how this could be true"

We see what we are willing to see. We hear what we are willing to hear.

You talk a lot about being willing. Several people, including myself, have commented on your sincerity.

We say, "It's really there"

You say, "I don't see it"

Over and over and over again. :)

What you seek, we can't give you. All we can give you is words. Only God can back them up and witness their truth to you.

What do you think the Savior is trying to express in the following verses, especially the parts I have bolded:

Matt. 13: 15-16

15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

The Lord's gospel is not hard to understand. But there has to be real willingness on our part.

The only conclusion I can draw is that if you are not "getting it" then you must not be "willing". That is a harsh condemnation, and unfair, and I'm a jerk, but that is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Your unwillingness MAY be "deep down". It may take some digging to find out "what you yet lack."

The God I know is loving and caring, and would never make you "wait" like this -- unless there was no other way.

[Hemidakota]

Can I speculate? I highly doubt it. There is a vast difference of faith and knowledge.

Friend, you will have some difficulty in determing what is truth from your posted responses.

[DigitalShadow]

I am not convinced that everyone who enters religion asks to know the truth. Just recently I was told that asking God wasn't important in discovering truth. I find that answer extremely misleading. But many believe it.

I can't know exactly what people pray for and how God answers them. I can't even guarantee that all people pray. I think intermingled with the truth are lots of assumptions. I think that there is much good in this world. There a wonderful churches in the world that do much good. There are some religions and philosophies that are so very enlightened. And some, sadly, have an agenda of oppression and suppression. I think sometimes because the see and feel truth that they make assumptions about the truth of a particular church or philosophy. Some fail to see the error mixed in with the truth. Some don't even know they can ask the question. Perhaps they become satisfied by their segment of the truth. I think there are many that never even ask the question. I also see that culture and family upbringing has much to do with the choices of many. Such social and familial and political pressure! It takes a great deal of courage to seek for truth.... and to withhold ones judgement on the details until God answers. That is one reason why I have such respect for you, DS.

Some are kept from the truth because of culture and politics. I taught one Chinese family who told me about the strict laws against having a Bible in your possession. Freedom of religion is a relatively new and western concept. I think in these cases, God gives as much truth as he can amidst these circumstances.

I can also talk from my imperfect experience with the Spirit of the Lord. There have been times when I have wanted something to be right or true. So much so that I justified myself in that action or position.....only to learn later that I was mistaken and needed to course correct. I wasn't evil for doing this. I just needed to learn. I needed the experience.... lots of experience with the spirit and testing it... and then learning trust in the Lord and not in the arm of the flesh. God let me be in ignorance for a time. Lots of times on lots of little insignificant issues. And the light comes usually when I desire it first. When I get tired of the ignorance or when I am hungry for more. He also keeps me from truth when I am lazy or sinful or when I can't be trusted with the responsibility. He is strict, the Lord is, about who receives all of his truth. There is much in the way of devotion and loyalty and trustworthiness. God has given me spiritual knowledge...... and has added that I should not share it with others. I have learned that the hard way. But remember also, that he is full of tender mercies. For those who hunger and thirst for truth, He makes a way for them to find it....in this life or the next.

The Book of Mormon helps me on this one too. I posted a little of 2 Nephi 29 on another thread earlier today. vs. 7 Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth

I know that many people who enter a religion do not do so to seek the truth. In fact I believe that for the majority of the population in the US simply inherit their religion never bothering to question it or seek the truth other than what they have been told. But I am not talking about those people, I am talking about the truly faithful of other religions who have asked God and He has told them they are on the right path and truly believe they are doing the Lord's work. I've met some of these people and looked into their eyes and could see that from the bottom of their heart they "knew" they were right. So I have to ask myself (and this forum), if only God can give them such a strong feeling of truth, how can so many people be so faithful about the wrong message?

All I'm saying is that from my perspective, I see people of different faiths who truly believe and have utterly convinced themselves that God is communicating to them. God has remained silent to me, but everyone tells me I have to make the choice of which one of them is right (if any). That essentially is why I am agnostic and my best guess is that none of them are right.

[Guest tomk]

If only God can give them such a strong feeling of truth, how can so many people be so faithful about the wrong message?

What do you think is the wrong message?

Is it "better" for someone, at least for the short term, to follow a message that has "some truth" vs "no truth"?

We don't believe other religions are completely without truth. They just don't have a fullness of the Lord's gospel.

All I'm saying is that from my perspective, I see people of different faiths who truly believe and have utterly convinced themselves that God is communicating to them. God has remained silent to me, but everyone tells me I have to make the choice of which one of them is right (if any). That essentially is why I am agnostic and my best guess is that none of them are right.

You don't have to do anything you don't want to do.

[Misshalfway]

I think those people are absolutely genuine. And I wouldn't doubt that God was indeed communicating to them. Perhaps they are assuming that because of the spiritual experience that they have had that they have all the truth..... or all the truth they need.

Beyond that one, DS, my answer is -- I don't know. It is a very good question. Had I not had the undeniable experience of knowing God, at least in part, I would probably make the same conclusion.

[DigitalShadow]

If only God can give them such a strong feeling of truth, how can so many people be so faithful about the wrong message?

What do you think is the wrong message?

Is it "better" for someone, at least for the short term, to follow a message that has "some truth" vs "no truth"?

We don't believe other religions are completely without truth. They just don't have a fullness of the Lord's gospel.

And Scientologists? Do you believe they hold some truth as well with talk of thetans and aliens hybernating in volcanoes? There are truly faithful scientologists as well.

All I'm saying is that from my perspective, I see people of different faiths who truly believe and have utterly convinced themselves that God is communicating to them. God has remained silent to me, but everyone tells me I have to make the choice of which one of them is right (if any). That essentially is why I am agnostic and my best guess is that none of them are right.

You don't have to do anything you don't want to do.

Obviously.

[Guest tomk]

And Scientologists? Do you believe they hold some truth as well with talk of thetans and aliens hybernating in volcanoes? There are truly faithful scientologists as well.

Obviously.

They believe in a power greater than themselves.

God will work with us bit by bit, no matter how small.

Let's not forget that the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms are degrees of GLORY as well. God works to save all of his children by means.

[DigitalShadow]

They believe in a power greater than themselves.

God will work with us bit by bit, no matter how small.

Let's not forget that the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms are degrees of GLORY as well. God works to save all of his children by means.

Why is believing in a higher power (no matter how rediculous) inherently better than not? Simply being in awe of the universe around us is not good enough?

[DigitalShadow]

They believe in a power greater than themselves.

God will work with us bit by bit, no matter how small.

Let's not forget that the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms are degrees of GLORY as well. God works to save all of his children by means.

Assuming a God exists and I were in the position of God. I think that I would find it preferable that someone remains agnostic on My existance rather than believe I am an alien named Xenu in control of the Galactic Confederacy.

[Guest tomk]

Why is believing in a higher power (no matter how rediculous) inherently better than not? Simply being in awe of the universe around us is not good enough?

Each of us are at a certain point along a continuum.

I say God is the one helping us along that continuum.

Based upon that, I would say it is better to believe in a higher power of some sort than to be agnostic or aetheist. Why? Cuz it seems to me that it gives God "more to work with" as regards to that individual, whereas an agnostic or aetheist is not even SURE that higher power exists, or refutes it completely.

Being in awe of the universe is a great thing, and I join you in the wonder of it all, I really do!!!!

If you were exposed to the idea that YOU could have a part in creating bits of that universe -- wouldn't you want the chance? You cannot deny the kewl "geek factor" present in that idea. To be able to create worlds, planetary systems, suns of all varieties, whatever, you-name-it!!!!

I can't wait to get there!!!

That is what God wants to share with us.

[Misshalfway]

Assuming a God exists and I were in the position of God. I think that I would find it preferable that someone remains agnostic on My existance rather than believe I am an alien named Xenu in control of the Galactic Confederacy.

I must agree with you. I think God very much wants us to know his true nature.

John 17:3

"This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

[Guest tomk]

Dear Father in Heaven,

Thank you for these forums, where we can discuss different things that interest us. Thank you for the internet and the ways it brings people together. What a great gift!

Please forgive me for my light-mindedness at times, and for my lack of patience!

I prayed for DS this morning, and I would like to do so again. Please help him find you, the REAL you. Lead him along as you see fit, in your timing and wisdom, may it happen for him. Bless him according to his desires. Touch his heart and mind in the way that only you can. Let him know you are there.

In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.