Religion and Science for us LDS

[Guest tomk]

Thank you for reading my post. There is a time and a season appointed for all things. At one time of my youth, I played softball. My father who was a very spiritual and devoted man that did not play softball once explained to me that although the scriptures are important there are times to look to and pay attention to other things. He said that while I was playing second base is not the time to be reading the scriptures. He then counseled me not to be so heavenly minded that I am of no earthly use.

If we are to integrate science and religion we must understand both. If we are to expect those expert in the methods of science to try the methods of faith we must also be willing to try the methods of science as an example of how we would like our concepts of faith accepted.

The technical advances that allow us more time to pursue religious things have come about because of the understanding of scientific principles that many religious individuals do not accept; yet they are will willing to enjoy the comfort of the advances. This results in many scientists resenting and looking upon those who focus mostly on that which is religious as hypocrites.

The Traveler

I agree. I am not one of those who shuns science. I am grateful for science!! As you say -- without it we would not have many of the advances we have today. There is no doubt about that. And the scientific method DOES have value.

My only beef with science is that (it is my perception) they exclude from their "method" the One Source that could potentially help them! Imagine if scientists went about what they do with a prayer in their hearts.

I also think it is ironic that, from my point of view, it is God who is inspiring us and powering us from moment to moment anyway. King Benjamin put it better than I ever could:

Mosiah 2: 21

21 I say unto you that if ye should serve him who has created you from the beginning, and is preserving you from day to day, by lending you breath, that ye may live and move and do according to your own will, [AND HAVE YOU NOTICED? WE DO EXACTLY THAT!] ] and even supporting you from one moment to another—I say, if ye should serve him with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants.

Religionists could also be served by not taking the Creation account and other things so literally and narrowly as they do. God works by law, people. He's not up there with a magic wand. He works by means. Yes, He made the Grand Canyon, but by millions of years of erosion and weathering! Science, in my view, opens up a window into the workings of God. They can't help but do this, for God is "in" everything.

Jacob 4: 8

8 Behold, great and marvelous are the works of the Lord. How unsearchable are the depths of the mysteries of him; and it is impossible that man should find out all his ways. And no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him; wherefore, brethren, despise not the revelations of God.

Alma 30: 44

44 But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had signs enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me a sign, when ye have the testimony of all these thy brethren, and also all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator.

I am for a world where science and religion "join forces". I believe they are already joined -- we're just in the process of realizing it, by degrees.

[Guest tomk]

I Wanted to bring this up too. The idea of an "Outer Darkenss or "Hell" where non shall escape sounds to me like this....

Black hole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WARNING: SPECULATION POLICE, CLOSE YOUR EYES:

Based on this book I read:

Obtaining Your Calling & Election

That is indeed where Satan and the Sons of Perdition are headed: A black hole in the universe. They face total dissolution. They will return to their native "raw intelligence" -- perhaps to be scooped-up and begin the journey again -- as my book says "hopefully this time with better results."

Notice the wording the Lord uses when He describes their fate:

from D&C 76:

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

Now, if you just take a moment to think about this, the Lord is not saying IT HAS NO END. He is only saying that it is NOT REVEALED UNTO US, UNLESS WE ARE TO SHARE IN SATAN'S FATE.

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

HE DOES SHOW THE VISION TO "MANY" BUT STRAIGHTWAY SHUTS IT UP AGAIN.

NOW, WHY WOULD HE DO THAT? I HAVE MY OWN IDEAS, BUT I WON'T GO INTO THAT HERE.

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

[Hemidakota]

I Wanted to bring this up too. The idea of an "Outer Darkenss or "Hell" where non shall escape sounds to me like this....

Black hole - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Black hole information paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Take a closer look at a Neuron...there is something that looms from the center nuclease.

What do you think is the location of those who commit murder like Starlin or Hitler type characters?

[Hemidakota]

WARNING: SPECULATION POLICE, CLOSE YOUR EYES:

Based on this book I read:

Obtaining Your Calling & Election

That is indeed where Satan and the Sons of Perdition are headed: A black hole in the universe. They face total dissolution. They will return to their native "raw intelligence" -- perhaps to be scooped-up and begin the journey again -- as my book says "hopefully this time with better results."

Notice the wording the Lord uses when He describes their fate:

from D&C 76:

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

Now, if you just take a moment to think about this, the Lord is not saying IT HAS NO END. He is only saying that it is NOT REVEALED UNTO US, UNLESS WE ARE TO SHARE IN SATAN'S FATE.

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

HE DOES SHOW THE VISION TO "MANY" BUT STRAIGHTWAY SHUTS IT UP AGAIN.

NOW, WHY WOULD HE DO THAT? I HAVE MY OWN IDEAS, BUT I WON'T GO INTO THAT HERE.

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

If it pertains to your personal salvation FATHER will revealed this very truth for a reason. I will say this, there is an end to those who are perdition.

[Stampede]

Take a closer look at a Neuron...there is something that looms from the center nuclease.

What do you think is the location of those who commit murder like Starlin or Hitler type characters?

we are not to judge any of them

you know what? maybe Hitler never had the opportunity to hear the gospel. maybe he was clinically insane? maybe he is taught the gospel in the hereafter and accepted it and repented of his sins?

How would you react if you saw Hitler in the Celestial kingdom?

But according to scripture if he did not accept the gspel he would obtain either the telestial or Terrestrial kingdom

[Stampede]

WARNING: SPECULATION POLICE, CLOSE YOUR EYES:

Based on this book I read:

Obtaining Your Calling & Election

That is indeed where Satan and the Sons of Perdition are headed: A black hole in the universe. They face total dissolution. They will return to their native "raw intelligence" -- perhaps to be scooped-up and begin the journey again -- as my book says "hopefully this time with better results."

Notice the wording the Lord uses when He describes their fate:

from D&C 76:

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

44 Wherefore, he saves all except them—they shall go away into everlasting punishment, which is endless punishment, which is eternal punishment, to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, which is their torment—

45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;

46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;

Now, if you just take a moment to think about this, the Lord is not saying IT HAS NO END. He is only saying that it is NOT REVEALED UNTO US, UNLESS WE ARE TO SHARE IN SATAN'S FATE.

47 Nevertheless, I, the Lord, show it by vision unto many, but straightway shut it up again;

HE DOES SHOW THE VISION TO "MANY" BUT STRAIGHTWAY SHUTS IT UP AGAIN.

NOW, WHY WOULD HE DO THAT? I HAVE MY OWN IDEAS, BUT I WON'T GO INTO THAT HERE.

48 Wherefore, the end, the width, the height, the depth, and the misery thereof, they understand not, neither any man except those who are ordained unto this condemnation.

49 And we heard the voice, saying: Write the vision, for lo, this is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly.

Wonderful, absolutely wonderful. a Black hole is theory is the onyl thing capable of destroying matter, but even then it is not destroyed.

the speghettification woudl rip anything that goes past the event horizon apart then go into an orbit around the singularity point and then later (if a certain theory is correct) ejected out past the event horizon once it has gained enough velocity.

so quite possibly this is the "outer Darkness" to which the Lord refers to.

Also, if you think about our particular Solar System within the Milky Way Galaxy We have 9 Planets.

Image:UpdatedPlanets2006.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Earth will be renewed and recieve it's Paradasiacal Glory and become a great Urim and Thummim. (which i also have an interesting theory of ont hat as well.) and the earth wil becoem the Celestial kingdom, and the highest tier in That if i Remember correctly.

Celestial - Glory of the Sun..... the first inner 3 planets being Mercury Venus and Earth. as we know there are 3 tiers int he Celestial kindom as well.

then you take a look at the rest of the planets..... Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. The largest planets in the solar system, Terrestrial - Glory of the Moon.... light is not as bright on those planets and thier massive size would make for enough room for all of the Many masses of people who will be in that particular kingdom.

Then you have Uranis, Neptune Pluto, Eris, and Ceres..... The Telestial kingdom, the glory of the stars.... not as many people will go here as the 2nd kingdom but the planets in comparasin tot he size of ours is still spectacular and gargantuan....

maybe our Solar system will become the 3 degrees of Glory? that would make sense considering that there is a purpose to everything, all of the planets and stars....

[Stampede]

I think alot of people who have had ideas regarding science and things were definitely inspired of God to help us understand the nature of our universe, Laws of physics, quantum mechanics, Light particles and other such fields of study have opened up a vast field of knowledge.

for instance, The urim and Thummim.....

People Say god is all knowing right? and then we have free will right? well how can we have free will if God knows what we are goign to do before we do it.

I propose thos theory - God is all knowing because he knows all of the possible outcomes of our decisions, he also has raised us and formed our spirits and knows us each personally and how we react in different situations based on an eternity of preparing us to come to earth.

How does he know all of the outcomes? look at Chess for example. Computer nowadays can map out all possible combinations of chess moves and outcomes of a given game from a clean chess set-up.

all of the possible algorithims is an astonishingly high number and not something that is easly described as a single number but as a mathematical therum.

Well imagine a being with far superior intelligence than everyone on the earth combined. a being could easily deduce the most logical outcome in any given situation based on the position of the pieces.

We do not suprise God, but i'm sure we disappoint him because he wants us to do certain things but then we go ahead and not do them. Why do you think he got angry enough to flood the whole earth? because his children were being exceptionally bad and not doing what he had hoped they would do. But he did what he knew they were capable of doing.

Now, the greath urim and Thummim is a sea of Sire and Glass correct? how else would you describe what you saw in a vision when you have no idea what a Plasma LCD screen is back in the 1800's? I know if i saw one i would think it was fire and glass.... computer technology, advanced microphysics, Neural Networks, the internet... ALL i am very sure exist spiritually as wella s physically. how do you think we will learn things int he Celestial Kingdom? we have to be taught right? God works in a natual order of things and i'm sure we will learn the same way we do today...

[Guest tomk]

God knowing what we will do does not equal we must do it.

We still make the choices we make based on OUR desires. God just happens to know what choice we're going to make.

[Hemidakota]

we are not to judge any of them

you know what? maybe Hitler never had the opportunity to hear the gospel. maybe he was clinically insane? maybe he is taught the gospel in the hereafter and accepted it and repented of his sins?

How would you react if you saw Hitler in the Celestial kingdom?

But according to scripture if he did not accept the gspel he would obtain either the telestial or Terrestrial kingdom

That is an incorrect statement. Those who stand in that authoritian leadership, have to be judges over the flock. There judgment will stand as a testament to the wicked or the unrighteous.

I hardly doubt Adolph or even Stalin will make it to the Celestial kingdom; be glad they will at least [hopefully] make it to the Telestial Glory.

Hitler at this point will have to pay for his time and then ask for that forgives from each person he had affected in his life. Though, even his father, who at times severely beaten Adolf, will have to pay for his crime that led this man on a different path in life.

[Hemidakota]

I think alot of people who have had ideas regarding science and things were definitely inspired of God to help us understand the nature of our universe, Laws of physics, quantum mechanics, Light particles and other such fields of study have opened up a vast field of knowledge.

for instance, The urim and Thummim.....

People Say god is all knowing right? and then we have free will right? well how can we have free will if God knows what we are goign to do before we do it.

I propose thos theory - God is all knowing because he knows all of the possible outcomes of our decisions, he also has raised us and formed our spirits and knows us each personally and how we react in different situations based on an eternity of preparing us to come to earth.

How does he know all of the outcomes? look at Chess for example. Computer nowadays can map out all possible combinations of chess moves and outcomes of a given game from a clean chess set-up.

all of the possible algorithims is an astonishingly high number and not something that is easly described as a single number but as a mathematical therum.

Well imagine a being with far superior intelligence than everyone on the earth combined. a being could easily deduce the most logical outcome in any given situation based on the position of the pieces.

We do not suprise God, but i'm sure we disappoint him because he wants us to do certain things but then we go ahead and not do them. Why do you think he got angry enough to flood the whole earth? because his children were being exceptionally bad and not doing what he had hoped they would do. But he did what he knew they were capable of doing.

Now, the greath urim and Thummim is a sea of Sire and Glass correct? how else would you describe what you saw in a vision when you have no idea what a Plasma LCD screen is back in the 1800's? I know if i saw one i would think it was fire and glass.... computer technology, advanced microphysics, Neural Networks, the internet... ALL i am very sure exist spiritually as wella s physically. how do you think we will learn things int he Celestial Kingdom? we have to be taught right? God works in a natual order of things and i'm sure we will learn the same way we do today...

Inspiration only comes to those who have the desire, whether it is a direct relationship with their fields or not. Without this desire, there is no prompting of the spirit to lead or show to that person.

IMHO - Backhoes or more like conduits; I don't agree on destroying matter since matter cannot be destroyed. It just becomes inert and lifeless. Even the planet that once existed reside after Mars is a good case study on what will transpire to worlds that have an ending. Professor Nibley was ahead of this known theory for quite sometime concerning what becomes of worlds after devoided of life. Sometime in the distance future, our own solar system will be divided. As this earth will be rolled out of this orbit and again reside back to its original location. Perhaps, Venus will become the next Earth as it is be readied and will push to this orbit for Telestial habitants. Something to think about...

There is a company located in Irvine California, back in the mid 90s that has been working on Crystal Array storage; the next evolution to disk storage. Sounds familiar?

Always remember, what natural law applies to our known Telestial state is not applicable to those glories or state above us.

[stockoneder]

A few years ago I came across the Electric/Plasma Universe theory and have since studied it quite a bit. Under that theory none of the observed phenomena require exotic and unproven things like black holes, neutron stars, pulsars, dark matter, dark energy etc.

All those "things" have simple explanations based on the known and observed laws of physics. Here is a great place to start exploring this theory which is gaining more and more adherents from a variety of scientific disciplines. And this theory ties in with the gospel far better than the standard model of the universe.

Remember how Joseph Smith said the Sun gets its light from Kolob?

"Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars,"

The electric universe theory shows how this is possible and even probable. Standard model says it is impossible.

Black holes tear logic apart | holoscience.com | The Electric Universe

thunderbolts.info | A voice for the Electric Universe

[Seminarysnoozer]

A few years ago I came across the Electric/Plasma Universe theory and have since studied it quite a bit. Under that theory none of the observed phenomena require exotic and unproven things like black holes, neutron stars, pulsars, dark matter, dark energy etc.

All those "things" have simple explanations based on the known and observed laws of physics. Here is a great place to start exploring this theory which is gaining more and more adherents from a variety of scientific disciplines. And this theory ties in with the gospel far better than the standard model of the universe.

Remember how Joseph Smith said the Sun gets its light from Kolob?

"Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars,"

The electric universe theory shows how this is possible and even probable. Standard model says it is impossible.

Black holes tear logic apart | holoscience.com | The Electric Universe

thunderbolts.info | A voice for the Electric Universe

I am not sure why we assume that the "observed laws of physics" relate to fine matter. Fine matter, or the realm of God may have totally different physics from what we observe. Kolob may be made up of material that we are not able to "see" while in this condition. It may not be observable until the world is transformed as well as everything around us. It is interesting to me that people assume those two spheres must follow the same laws. We cannot build a "Tower of Babel" (the thought that we can understand God's realm on our own and therefore don't need a Savior) to reach God, that has been tried already. Even considering it is not a good idea.

[Traveler]

A few years ago I came across the Electric/Plasma Universe theory and have since studied it quite a bit. Under that theory none of the observed phenomena require exotic and unproven things like black holes, neutron stars, pulsars, dark matter, dark energy etc.

All those "things" have simple explanations based on the known and observed laws of physics. Here is a great place to start exploring this theory which is gaining more and more adherents from a variety of scientific disciplines. And this theory ties in with the gospel far better than the standard model of the universe.

Remember how Joseph Smith said the Sun gets its light from Kolob?

"Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars,"

The electric universe theory shows how this is possible and even probable. Standard model says it is impossible.

Black holes tear logic apart | holoscience.com | The Electric Universe

thunderbolts.info | A voice for the Electric Universe

My background (education) is in math and physics. I currently work as an contract engineer in automation, robotics and artificial intelligence. I read through your links. There have long been problems with the big bang theory and elements of relativity and special relativity. I can highlight some of these problems but in the same light there are significant problems with the electrical universe theory. In particular there are known and proven principles of particle physics and quantum mechanics that are being overlooked and ignored in the links which you gave. First and most important is that not all matter has properties associated with mass (gravity) or electrical charge. But all matter is associated with the large and small nuclear forces.

The main problem in resolving inconsistencies in our current models are in the fact that a general theory or universal field theory does not exist that will explain the relationships of the 4 known forces. Without these missing pieces we are forced to rely on approximations. The only way around these calculations is in using various methods imbedded in partial differential equations. It is in these calculations that we encounter infinity. I would point out that there are many kinds of infinities that are not congruent or equal. For example there are bounded and unbounded infinities as well as continuous and non continuous. It is important to note that dividing a number by zero creates a unbounded non continuous type of infinity. If you like I can provide some examples of different kinds of infinity.

What is important to understand is that the standard electrical theory relies on Laplace transforms - which uses calculations that include infinity. This creates a significant problem in the critical argument to replace aspects of relativity that predicts black holes with the electrical universe theory.

I would also point out that the recent discovery of the Higgs boson (predicted you the standard symmetrical particle model) is proof that science is on the right track in filling in the gaps that currently exist in our model that includes exotic matter such as black holes. The electrical universe model may be a nifty idea - but it is not taking us anywhere and I am unaware of any similar predictions (like the Higgs boson) that have been verified.

But then who knows - sometimes these things take time to shack out. I just do see anything to get that excited about yet. From a religious standpoint - I find the concept of multiple dimensional space time as a rather interesting and possible explanation of “spirit” matter.

The Traveler

[stockoneder]

I am not sure why we assume that the "observed laws of physics" relate to fine matter. Fine matter, or the realm of God may have totally different physics from what we observe. Kolob may be made up of material that we are not able to "see" while in this condition. It may not be observable until the world is transformed as well as everything around us. It is interesting to me that people assume those two spheres must follow the same laws. We cannot build a "Tower of Babel" (the thought that we can understand God's realm on our own and therefore don't need a Savior) to reach God, that has been tried already. Even considering it is not a good idea.

Seminary snoozer, I am not sure I understand your reply. I wasn't trying to make any judgements on fine matter or its properties. But my comment on the the electrical universe theory was meant to refer to a theory which explains(possibly) the universe as we see and observe it, without resorting to creating imaginary and unproven "things" or other dimensions needed to make the mainstream model work. Black holes are theorized but completely unproven 'science."

They were theorized as a way to make the math work in the standard model, where gravity is the main creative and regulating force in the universe, even though it is a very, very weak force when compared to the electrical force. Without black holes, neutron stars and things like dark matter, all of which are merely theorized, the math wouldn't work and the whole standard model collapses. So there must be black holes and dark matter because the main stream scientific community says that model is proven. See the problem?

The universe we see and try to understand is not a different "sphere" so I am a little confused as to the point you are making. You could say black holes and dark matter are in a different sphere but nobody has yet proven they even exist. We do have "proven" physical laws which are somewhat understood and those laws could be used to explain the phenomena we see in space if applied to their understanding without resorting to different unknown laws and processes.

If we can use them why wouldn't we? Why shouldn't we? Isn't Occam's razor applicable? The electrical universe model uses "known laws" and the properties of plasma, electrical currents, magnetic fields, etc., to demonstrate how stars could be formed, operate, move, etc. It seems to have better answers and predictions for phenomena which are not yet understood. A very simple example is the process of planetary scarring. Standard model has no real explanation for how or why this happens yet its effects are seen on many moons and planets. Electrical model has a very simple logical explanation.

Their is no need to over-complicate things when you don't have to.

I don't see how this has anything to do with the "tower of Babel"

[Seminarysnoozer]

Seminary snoozer, I am not sure I understand your reply. I wasn't trying to make any judgements on fine matter or its properties. But my comment on the the electrical universe theory was meant to refer to a theory which explains(possibly) the universe as we see and observe it, without resorting to creating imaginary and unproven "things" or other dimensions needed to make the mainstream model work. Black holes are theorized but completely unproven 'science."

They were theorized as a way to make the math work in the standard model, where gravity is the main creative and regulating force in the universe, even though it is a very, very weak force when compared to the electrical force. Without black holes, neutron stars and things like dark matter, all of which are merely theorized, the math wouldn't work and the whole standard model collapses. So there must be black holes and dark matter because the main stream scientific community says that model is proven. See the problem?

The universe we see and try to understand is not a different "sphere" so I am a little confused as to the point you are making. You could say black holes and dark matter are in a different sphere but nobody has yet proven they even exist. We do have "proven" physical laws which are somewhat understood and those laws could be used to explain the phenomena we see in space if applied to their understanding without resorting to different unknown laws and processes.

If we can use them why wouldn't we? Why shouldn't we? Isn't Occam's razor applicable? The electrical universe model uses "known laws" and the properties of plasma, electrical currents, magnetic fields, etc., to demonstrate how stars could be formed, operate, move, etc. It seems to have better answers and predictions for phenomena which are not yet understood. A very simple example is the process of planetary scarring. Standard model has no real explanation for how or why this happens yet its effects are seen on many moons and planets. Electrical model has a very simple logical explanation.

Their is no need to over-complicate things when you don't have to.

I don't see how this has anything to do with the "tower of Babel"

That is all great if this was a forum to discuss those scientific theories but you stated that you wanted to tie this into the gospel and how it related to receiving light from Kolob, etc.

Tell me specifically how this; "The electrical universe model uses "known laws" and the properties of plasma, electrical currents, magnetic fields, etc., to demonstrate how stars could be formed, operate, move, etc. It seems to have better answers and predictions for phenomena which are not yet understood. A very simple example is the process of planetary scarring. Standard model has no real explanation for how or why this happens yet its effects are seen on many moons and planets. Electrical model has a very simple logical explanation." ties into the gospel.

Encyclopedia Judaica Jr.; "According to some modern commentators, the building of the tower was an example of man's extreme pride in his own ability. The building became such an obsession that, according to the Midrash,when a builder fell off the tower to his death, the other builders paid no attention, but when a brick fell,they would cry: "When shall another come in its place?" According to this interpretation, every generation has its own Tower of Babel, when it begins to idolize its technology. The moral of the story is thus as applicable today as it was thousands of years ago."

Nephi's prayer; " O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm."

Making flesh one's "arm" pertains, in part, to the process of making the things around us, worldly things, our passion and our heaven, our treasure. All I am saying is that it is dangerous to make the carnal world findings equivalent to heavenly things. And more so if they become one's heart desire. It is prideful to think that we can reach heaven via scientific study. There is only one path there.

Now, if you weren't relating those things to heavenly realms then I don't understand your point in discussing them in this forum. Maybe I don't understand the connection you are trying to make and if that is the case then I am sorry for misunderstanding you.

[stockoneder]

Do you remember this from the pearl of great Price," Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob". Joseph Smith said the sun borrowed its light From Kolob. The electric universe model postulates stars are capacitors which are charged by galactic electrical currents which agrees with what JS said. I can't possible tell you how all the things you asked about are created here but I can give you a link to a site you might find interesting with tons of this info coming from an LDS perspective: Plasma (ELECTRIC) Universe thread.. - LDS Freedom Forum -

It is a big site and takes a bit to load so be patient with it.

MY belief for what it is worth is God created, operates and regulates the universe through the use and control of electrical processes. It certainly makes far more sense to me to believe that than to believe in the Big Bang expanding universe theory.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Do you remember this from the pearl of great Price," Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob". Joseph Smith said the sun borrowed its light From Kolob. The electric universe model postulates stars are capacitors which are charged by galactic electrical currents which agrees with what JS said. I can't possible tell you how all the things you asked about are created here but I can give you a link to a site you might find interesting with tons of this info coming from an LDS perspective: Plasma (ELECTRIC) Universe thread.. - LDS Freedom Forum -

It is a big site and takes a bit to load so be patient with it.

MY belief for what it is worth is God created, operates and regulates the universe through the use and control of electrical processes. It certainly makes far more sense to me to believe that than to believe in the Big Bang expanding universe theory.

Thanks for your response. Great explanation!

...it is also interesting that electrical forces are part of neuronal signals in the brain. May be a way to know one's thoughts.

[Traveler]

Do you remember this from the pearl of great Price," Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob". Joseph Smith said the sun borrowed its light From Kolob. The electric universe model postulates stars are capacitors which are charged by galactic electrical currents which agrees with what JS said. I can't possible tell you how all the things you asked about are created here but I can give you a link to a site you might find interesting with tons of this info coming from an LDS perspective: Plasma (ELECTRIC) Universe thread.. - LDS Freedom Forum -

It is a big site and takes a bit to load so be patient with it.

MY belief for what it is worth is God created, operates and regulates the universe through the use and control of electrical processes. It certainly makes far more sense to me to believe that than to believe in the Big Bang expanding universe theory.

Question #1: How do you feel about our sun changing its electrical polarity?

Question #2. If the universe is not expanding - why the red shift verified by the Hubble telescope?

Question #3. If you do not believe in the Big Bang - what is your explanation of background radiation that makes far more sense to you?

The Traveler

[stockoneder]

Fist of all I don't have your scientific background and don't claim to be an authority in those fields. I like to think I have common sense and that I can think logically although I might be deluding myself. The things I have brought up here are not concepts and theories I claim to fully grasp only ones that seem easier to believe in than the standard model 'myths'.

Question 1. I believe this is predicted and accounted for by the Electric universe proponents. If you google it, given your scientific background you should be able to answer this better for yourself than if I try to.

Question 2. This one is a little easier for me. Logically, it is ridiculous to me that an explosion could cause matter propelled by it to steadily increase in speed the further it gets from the blast. Especially if it is met by the resistance of all that "dark matter" in the universe. But luckily people a lot smarter than me have come up with sound scientific evidence refuting it. Halton Arp is the man who has done this by documenting many, many anomalies refuting the theory that redshift shows the distance and speed. According to him and the electric universe theory it is mainly a function of age. Here is a link to some of his findings: Articles - Halton Arp's official website

Question # 3. As I understand it it is localized radiation caused by interacting Birkeland currents in our galaxy. This is a PDF you might like to read- http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CFIQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thunderbolts.info%2FEU%2520Intro%2520and%2520Chap1.pdf&ei=HZGCUvq_GIidtQaZioBA&usg=AFQjCNEq_cXhu8j0T80axPd8c-KsUUWSZA&sig2=04f__xB5eljwRCnoTbStFw&bvm=bv.56146854,d.Yms&cad=rja

[Traveler]

Fist of all I don't have your scientific background and don't claim to be an authority in those fields. I like to think I have common sense and that I can think logically although I might be deluding myself. The things I have brought up here are not concepts and theories I claim to fully grasp only ones that seem easier to believe in than the standard model 'myths'.

Question 1. I believe this is predicted and accounted for by the Electric universe proponents. If you google it, given your scientific background you should be able to answer this better for yourself than if I try to.

Question 2. This one is a little easier for me. Logically, it is ridiculous to me that an explosion could cause matter propelled by it to steadily increase in speed the further it gets from the blast. Especially if it is met by the resistance of all that "dark matter" in the universe. But luckily people a lot smarter than me have come up with sound scientific evidence refuting it. Halton Arp is the man who has done this by documenting many, many anomalies refuting the theory that redshift shows the distance and speed. According to him and the electric universe theory it is mainly a function of age. Here is a link to some of his findings: Articles - Halton Arp's official website

Question # 3. As I understand it it is localized radiation caused by interacting Birkeland currents in our galaxy. This is a PDF you might like to read- http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CFIQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thunderbolts.info%2FEU%2520Intro%2520and%2520Chap1.pdf&ei=HZGCUvq_GIidtQaZioBA&usg=AFQjCNEq_cXhu8j0T80axPd8c-KsUUWSZA&sig2=04f__xB5eljwRCnoTbStFw&bvm=bv.56146854,d.Yms&cad=rja

If one Googles Electric Universe, there is several astrophysicists directly involved in the particular science that go step by step to refute the theory. I stated in a previous post that there are several known problems with the Big Bang theory. A couple of my favorites are: First the universe is two massive (by many magnitudes) to have resulted from a single big bang. And Second: in order for a massive big bang there would have to be some kind of containment (like a supermassive black hole) and there is no evidence in the early universe of any such possibility. The best guess is that an 11 dimensional space universe collapsed – but in all honesty the possibility of such preconditions are significantly less than an evolution of a G-d creator. But that is another discussion.

The advent of Dark Matter and Dark Energy are relatively new concepts resulting from previously unobserved data recently provided by the Hubble telescope. The category of this dark stuff is not in violation of known physics but is a primitive attempt to explain (using known physics) what might be out there as part of the fabric of space time. It is my personal view that the more we understand recent science the closer we come to understanding the methods of G-d – which is in essence that the laws of physics established to govern our universe (including its creation) were not broken or suspended by a supernatural being (G-d) in order to create all things – including man. This, if one contemplates it, changes in theological understanding significant to the restoration as the most viable theological contribution in the history of mankind - making LDS theology the only possible Christian solution.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

The category of this dark stuff is not in violation of known physics but is a primitive attempt to explain (using known physics) what might be out there as part of the fabric of space time. It is my personal view that the more we understand recent science the closer we come to understanding the methods of G-d – which is in essence that the laws of physics established to govern our universe (including its creation) were not broken or suspended by a supernatural being (G-d) in order to create all things – including man. This, if one contemplates it, changes in theological understanding significant to the restoration as the most viable theological contribution in the history of mankind - making LDS theology the only possible Christian solution.

The Traveler

God's ways are not available to us even if we understood all the physical science around us unless one believes that the science of gross matter is the same as the science and physics that applies to fine matter. I am not sure how we could know that all science available to us is inclusive of all the science available to God. Since we are told that God's mysteries are only obtained via the spirit, I would assume that there is some science applicable to the "fine matter" world that is not accessible from the physical realm that we find ourselves in now. That doesn't mean that the laws around us are violated. He could have certainly used methods that are not possible in this environment to create this world.

If all I can see is a radio and don't have access to the broadcast station, at best, all I could do is hypothesize that there is some technology or method that allows a signal to be sent from some other location and received by the radio. Similarly, even if we detected somehow the location or receiving point of information transmitted from the spiritual realm we would only be commenting on the receiving end and not talking about the science or physics of the sending end.

One could ponder how the Liahona might be some real piece of technology but to hypothesis about the physics and science of how it is driven by whether the family of Lehi is righteous or not, probably would not be discovered by a scientific examination of the Liahona itself.

Even if we somehow we could identify the location of where the spirit communicates with the body, it would not speak of the physiology or the biophysical properties of the spirit. That doesn't mean that physical properties and laws of the body are violated just that the spirit realm is not accessed by the physical alone.

We don't have access to the science beyond the interface. All we can comment on, in terms of scientific discovery of man, is the world around us up to the point of interface.