Science and Religion: Not Mutually Exclusive Pt. 1

[VisionOfLehi]

I actually plan to address several aspects of this statement, in a series of threads.

A statement I have made, and believe firmly in, is as follows:

Science explains everything. God explains science.

(Although I don't believe we know all the science there is, yet, or that what we know now is 100% right.)

The first topic I want to talk about is:

Feelings

I often, on forums and sometimes in real life, hear people asking about the LDS belief in "feelings" and "impressions" that we are given by the Holy Ghost. There's plenty of confusion about it, and in some cases disdain.

I'd like to discuss where exactly feelings come from.

Based on scientific study we know a great deal about the nature of emotions! They're caused by biochemical reactions in our brain, as well as hormones and other chemicals in the rest of our body.

We even have drugs which interact with these chemicals in our bodies and brains that directly affect our emotions. It's all biological.

This even includes the powerful emotion of love! When two people are strongly in love, certain chemicals in the brain are at much higher levels than usual. This usually lasts up to 2 years, and then it fades away and one falls "out of love." This, unless they have worked to "fall in love" again. (Being good to one another and fostering the relationship.)

Our thoughts alone can be enough to change our emotions. Recalling a moment when somebody really ticked you off can make you more irritable in the present. Recalling a particularly touching moment can bring tears to your eyes.

And then emotions themselves can alter our emotions! Ask anyone with depression. Being depressed is likely to have an effect on every other emotion.

Why on Earth would we, Latter-day Saints, trust anything so errant as emotions?

I believe that these biochemical reactions were designed by God, for one, and not a mere chance of evolution. Complexities of the human mind, emotions, personality, etc. are what brought me to a belief in God in the first place. I do not believe science can explain their origin.

God would thus know perfectly well that our emotions are open to being affected! He would take this into account in His dealings with us! I don't think He'd leave us with these physical emotions alone.

As a Latter-day Saint I believe my spirit existed before I came to Earth in this mortal form of mine. In the pre-existence, or pre-mortal life, my spirit experience joy! And pain, for I know I wept, as well, as taught in the Scriptures.

This establishes for me that my spirit also experiences emotions. And, "All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;"

Being more fine, more pure, I do not think they are subject to all the weaknesses our physical emotions are. I think our spirits are much more trustworthy.

And the Holy Spirit of God, or the Holy Ghost, is even more trustworthy (100% so!)

I personally also believe that our spirits, and the Holy Spirit, speak also to our physical bodies. In the case of emotions, it elicits changes in our biochemical reactions.

But these changes are subtle, as we're taught as Saints. The Holy Spirit is a "still, small voice." If we are not in the right mindset, our own natural man, non-spirit emotions can overwhelm and block out what the Spirit is trying to tell us.

We do not believe we're supposed to blindly follow our every emotion! We're not taught that "If it makes you happy, go with it!" But instead, we're taught to enter prayer, and read the scriptures, and "become closer to the Spirit."

I believe that by praying and reading the scriptures we bring our mind (and thus chemical reactions) to a state of peace and receptiveness. In this state your emotions don't retard the subtle changes by the Holy Ghost, but instead receive and even enhance them.

So, final summation of the reason I trust my feelings:

I believe emotions are designed by God, and that He has provided us a way to clear out the worldly influences upon them that we may allow our spirit and the Holy Spirit to affect them.

Thoughts, comments, disagreements, counter arguments, etc., etc. are all welcome.

[Guest tomk]

I agree, and I applaud your efforts to describe the indescribable. I have tried, many times, in several posts, and have always come-up short. People just don't "get it" until they experience it for themselves.

Matters of the Spirit fall outside the realm of measurability. You cannot "measure" the power of the witness inside of a person.

As Joseph Smith said:

25 So it was with me. I had actually seen a light, and in the midst of that light I saw two Personages, and they did in reality speak to me; and though I was hated and persecuted for saying that I had seen a vision, yet it was true; and while they were persecuting me, reviling me, and speaking all manner of evil against me falsely for so saying, I was led to say in my heart: Why persecute me for telling the truth? I have actually seen a vision; and who am I that I can withstand God, or why does the world think to make me deny what I have actually seen? For I had seen a vision; I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it; at least I knew that by so doing I would offend God, and come under condemnation.

Until someone investigating our faith has such an experience, it is pointless to try and explain to them or convince them or do anything to demonstrate what it means to receive such a witness. It is not the domain of man to explain God's method of witness unto us. It is between God and that person.

[DigitalShadow]

I don't believe that science and religion are mutually exclusive, moreover they refer to two different methodologies that sometimes come into conflict. I will state my opinions counterpoints here (at the risk of exasperating Tom who will see that I still don't "get it" :)). I look forward to the discussion that ensues.

I often, on forums and sometimes in real life, hear people asking about the LDS belief in "feelings" and "impressions" that we are given by the Holy Ghost. There's plenty of confusion about it, and in some cases disdain.

I'd like to discuss where exactly feelings come from.

Based on scientific study we know a great deal about the nature of emotions! They're caused by biochemical reactions in our brain, as well as hormones and other chemicals in the rest of our body.

We even have drugs which interact with these chemicals in our bodies and brains that directly affect our emotions. It's all biological.

This even includes the powerful emotion of love! When two people are strongly in love, certain chemicals in the brain are at much higher levels than usual. This usually lasts up to 2 years, and then it fades away and one falls "out of love." This, unless they have worked to "fall in love" again. (Being good to one another and fostering the relationship.)

Our thoughts alone can be enough to change our emotions. Recalling a moment when somebody really ticked you off can make you more irritable in the present. Recalling a particularly touching moment can bring tears to your eyes.

And then emotions themselves can alter our emotions! Ask anyone with depression. Being depressed is likely to have an effect on every other emotion.

Why on Earth would we, Latter-day Saints, trust anything so errant as emotions?

I'm with you so far, I agree completely.

I believe that these biochemical reactions were designed by God, for one, and not a mere chance of evolution. Complexities of the human mind, emotions, personality, etc. are what brought me to a belief in God in the first place. I do not believe science can explain their origin.

Evolution has less to do with "chance" than most people assume. It is a proven algorithm both in life and computer science. As a programmer, I have used genetic algorithms with astounding success before. I believe evolution is a well supported theory and while scientists may quibble about the mechanisms, very few doubt it happens.

God would thus know perfectly well that our emotions are open to being affected! He would take this into account in His dealings with us! I don't think He'd leave us with these physical emotions alone.

If God knows exactly how our emotions work and how deceptive they can be, why would the all-powerful creator choose such an imperfect mechanism for communicating with us?

As a Latter-day Saint I believe my spirit existed before I came to Earth in this mortal form of mine. In the pre-existence, or pre-mortal life, my spirit experience joy! And pain, for I know I wept, as well, as taught in the Scriptures.

This establishes for me that my spirit also experiences emotions. And, "All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;"

If emotions are a well documented and understood physical phenomenon as you stated previously, how is it that they can be a part of our immortal soul that does not require a body to function?

Being more fine, more pure, I do not think they are subject to all the weaknesses our physical emotions are. I think our spirits are much more trustworthy.

And the Holy Spirit of God, or the Holy Ghost, is even more trustworthy (100% so!)

I personally also believe that our spirits, and the Holy Spirit, speak also to our physical bodies. In the case of emotions, it elicits changes in our biochemical reactions.

If you are saying that your spirit communicates with God which then triggers emotions in our physical form, I say that is a possibility. Howerver, it still does not account for a "perfect" being resorting to using such an imperfect mechanism to communicate with His children. If you don't believe me that it is an imperfect mechanism, just look at all the other religions out there.

But these changes are subtle, as we're taught as Saints. The Holy Spirit is a "still, small voice." If we are not in the right mindset, our own natural man, non-spirit emotions can overwhelm and block out what the Spirit is trying to tell us.

People have a wide variety of thoughts and emotions, cherry picking the ones that say the Church is true proves nothing. You could just as easily look for the feelings that the Church is not true and take those as God trying to lead you to a more correct church.

We do not believe we're supposed to blindly follow our every emotion! We're not taught that "If it makes you happy, go with it!" But instead, we're taught to enter prayer, and read the scriptures, and "become closer to the Spirit."

I believe that by praying and reading the scriptures we bring our mind (and thus chemical reactions) to a state of peace and receptiveness. In this state your emotions don't retard the subtle changes by the Holy Ghost, but instead receive and even enhance them.

By praying and reading the scriptures you bring your mind closer to accepting those same scriptures. That comes as no surprise to me but it also doesn't demonstrate anything other than the ability for people to convince themselves something is true. If someone having never heard of your religion could pray and receive an answer to seek out the Mormons, then I would say that is evidence of a God. I can hear everyone's response now "But God doesn't work that way..." Why not? Too useful? Too direct? We're talking about an all-powerful creator wanting his children to know his true nature, why would he rely on a feeling that could be from anywhere (physical or spiritual) to give His message?

So, final summation of the reason I trust my feelings:

I believe emotions are designed by God, and that He has provided us a way to clear out the worldly influences upon them that we may allow our spirit and the Holy Spirit to affect them.

I disagree. See arguments above.

Thoughts, comments, disagreements, counter arguments, etc., etc. are all welcome.

Good :)

[Guest tomk]

The problem is not in God's ability to communicate, only in our utter inability to explain it to you with words. :)

He communicates just fine. You'll see. :)

Perhaps the problem is word-choice.

"Feelings" are the closest we can come to describing how God communicates with us. How or What He actually does is not able to be uttered in the language of men. We can describe the manifestations in the body -- feelings, emotions, etc., but the actual process is beyond the scope of mere words. But nonetheless it is real!

DS, let me ask you. WHY do you suppose we keep encountering the phrase "unspeakable" in the following scriptures?

2 Cor. 9: 15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

2 Cor. 12: 4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

1 Pet. 1: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

Hel. 5: 44 And Nephi and Lehi were in the midst of them; yea, they were encircled about; yea, they were as if in the midst of a flaming fire, yet it did harm them not, neither did it take hold upon the walls of the prison; and they were filled with that joy which is unspeakable and full of glory.

3 Ne. 26: 18 And many of them saw and heard unspeakable things, which are not lawful to be written.

Hint: No, this does not mean the police are going to give them a ticket. In this context "not lawful" means "unable." :)

3 Ne. 28: 13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.

D&C 121: 26 God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now;

Why is the gift called "unspeakable" ???? (I know why -- I am hoping you can figure-out why)

[Moksha]

So , no one is saying that feelings trump scientific evidence are they?

[VisionOfLehi]

DigitalShadow:

Why would He use such an "imperfect" method? Because it puts the burden on US. HE is speaking clearly, but it makes US have to be in the right state to listen.

I never said anything bad about evolution, just that I don't think it alone accounts for the creation of man, nor his mind. In fact, I believe pretty strongly that evolution is happening even right now.

"If emotions are a well documented and understood physical phenomenon as you stated previously, how is it that they can be a part of our immortal soul that does not require a body to function?"

PHYSICAL emotions are well documented.

[sgallan]

So , no one is saying that feelings trump scientific evidence are they?

To take this rhetorical question a bad place..... God told a lady to drown her children in Texas. God told those male folks in Texas to do whatever they are doing to those women and kids, and also told the women it is Gods will and instructions.

Do some of you really want to go down this road rhetorical road?

[Guest tomk]

So , no one is saying that feelings trump scientific evidence are they?

To take this rhetorical question a bad place..... God told a lady to drown her children in Texas. God told those male folks in Texas to do whatever they are doing to those women and kids, and also told the women it is Gods will and instructions.

Do some of you really want to go down this road rhetorical road?

Just because somebody says "God told me to" does not make it so.

I also want to make it clear that it is not between "you" and "us" but between "you" and God. You have nothing to gain by proving us right or wrong. In other words, it does not let you off the hook.

[Guest tomk]

So , no one is saying that feelings trump scientific evidence are they?

There is no "vs" here. God is the source of both (ultimately).

The only place where God is not interfering is our choosing.

[VisionOfLehi]

As I said, there's a way for us to actually be attuned to what God is saying. "I felt" or "God said" isn't good enough if you're not actually in a mode to receive it.

Or, well, a Prophet. Some of them get told rather bluntly with angels and heavenly appearances.

[Traveler]

Some time ago I implied that we all should consider the origin of our thoughts. I would make reference to J. Rawlings (or whatever the name of the author of Harry Potter is) and Nicola Tesla. Both indicated that their “inventions” were not internally generated but thoughts that “would come to them” from time to time. Many of the world’s genius claimed that their “abilities” were not really theirs but that things came to them. Some other examples; Beethoven, Gandhi, Jesus, Mohammad and Alexander the Great.

Many think that the scriptures indicate that if a person claims to believe the “correct” doctrine that we can know if they were inspired of G-d. Jesus taught that the results of the inspiration indicates if it was good or evil and thus if it was of G-d or not – by their fruits you shall know them.

In the epoch story of Alice in Wonderland, Alice comes to a fork in the path and she asks the cat what path she should take. The cat asks, “Where are you going.” To which Alice answered, “I do not know.” The cat responded, “Then it does not matter.” Likewise if we do not know from where our thought come or where they take us – our will and choice cannot play a part.

To my friend Digital Shadow: Good software design will not only take into account the possibilities of how the various outcomes of that program cna be reached but the variety in which the “operator” interface will be utilized. Maybe it is not just the destination that must be acquired but the “intelligence” that must be “mastered” in order to proceed.

The Traveler

[Guest tomk]

Not sure if this is the same "vein" as what Traveler has been talking about (by the way, I enjoy your comments very much Traveler) but he reminds me of something.

It matters what we are becoming. And what we are becoming has to do with our connection with Jesus Christ.

The scriptures talk about a "rebirth" -- about becoming new creatures. This has to do with Traveler's statement above:

"Maybe it is not just the destination that must be acquired but the “intelligence” that must be “mastered” in order to proceed."

It is a process. What "qualifies" us to enter God's presences is what we have become through our association with His Son Jesus Christ. That association changes us. We become new creatures.

Jesus desires for us to become "one" with Him, even as He and the Father are "one" - one in every way imaginable, except for being the same substance. They are two distinct, seperate individuals, but "one in purpose." We cannot become one with them without the process of sanctification:

2 Ne. 9: 41

41 O then, my beloved brethren, come unto the Lord, the Holy One. [NOTICE THE INVITATION FROM CHRIST!] Remember that his paths are righteous. Behold, the way for man is narrow, [YOU NEED TO FOLLOW HIS ACTUAL VOICE] but it lieth in a straight course before him, and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel; and he employeth no servant there; and there is none other way save it be by the gate; for he cannot be deceived, for the Lord God is his name.

and the keeper of the gate is the Holy One of Israel;

Christ is the way home. He alone is the one ordained to give us the knowledge that is required, and the transformation that is needed. He provides the knowledge and power.

and he employeth no servant there;

No man on this earth, not even a prophet of God, does what the Beloved Son has been ordained to do. Only He can do it.

and there is none other way save it be by the gate

The Gate. Authorized baptism by the proper priesthood authority. And that authority only resides in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

for he cannot be deceived

In these forums (myself included) we are strangers one to another, although I really enjoy these discussions and consider most of you to be my friends (even though we don't always see eye to eye). We can deceive each other, but we cannot deceive Him. He is the keeper of the gate and He employeth no servant there!!! We will look Him in the eye and all of our excuses will melt away. He just doesn't stand there to condemn us. He stands there to ensure that Mercy has full sway. But mercy cannot rob Justice. Only the penitent can be saved.

[DigitalShadow]

Why would He use such an "imperfect" method? Because it puts the burden on US. HE is speaking clearly, but it makes US have to be in the right state to listen.

-God is perfect and all-powerful

-We are God's creations and He designed every intimate detail of us

-God wants to communicate to us to let us know his true nature

Given those three statements, it makes absolutely no logical sense to me that God couldn't clearly communicate to us His will and that there would be so much confusion over it in the world.

I never said anything bad about evolution, just that I don't think it alone accounts for the creation of man, nor his mind. In fact, I believe pretty strongly that evolution is happening even right now.

It is undeniable that evolution is happening right now. That is why when you are prescribed an anti-biotic you are instructed to continue taking it even after your symptoms stop, because if you don't completely kill all the bacteria, a strain resistant to that antibiotic could appear and get into the population. Because the life cycle of bacteria is so quick, we can witness evolutions through the pressure of natural selection in real time. What boggles my mind is that so many people accept that evolution happens, but refuse to believe that over millions of years the changes would be so drastic they would lead to new species and even the origin of our own race, especially given much evidence (ERVs) that evolution IS the origin of our own race.

"If emotions are a well documented and understood physical phenomenon as you stated previously, how is it that they can be a part of our immortal soul that does not require a body to function?"

PHYSICAL emotions are well documented.

My point is that physical emotions are well documents and understood, if our spirits had some kind of equivilent it would not be through the same mechanism so they wouldn't even be called emotions, and I see no evidence for such a thing.

[DigitalShadow]

Just because somebody says "God told me to" does not make it so.

This is my point exactly. Think about that really hard and you might get greater insight into my situation.

[VisionOfLehi]

"Given those three statements, it makes absolutely no logical sense to me that God couldn't clearly communicate to us His will and that there would be so much confusion over it in the world."

Is this an argument against God or personal revelation? It seems to be both.

[DigitalShadow]

"Given those three statements, it makes absolutely no logical sense to me that God couldn't clearly communicate to us His will and that there would be so much confusion over it in the world."

Is this an argument against God or personal revelation? It seems to be both.

It is not an argument against anything specifically, it is merely an observation. Either one of those three statements is inaccurate or the conclusion is wrong, all I'm stating is that the conclusion does not match the 3 precepts I listed.

[Guest tomk]

This is my point exactly. Think about that really hard and you might get greater insight into my situation.

I don't disagree with your premise, just the conclusions you draw about God.

[VisionOfLehi]

It is not an argument against anything specifically, it is merely an observation. Either one of those three statements is inaccurate or the conclusion is wrong, all I'm stating is that the conclusion does not match the 3 precepts I listed.

I'm going to go with "One of those 3 statements"

-God is perfect and all-powerful

-We are God's creations and He designed every intimate detail of us

-God wants to communicate to us to let us know his true nature

Should be:

-God wants to communicate to us to let us know his true nature, but does not want to force us to do it, but let us of our own choosing.Very strong LDS belief that God does not want to force us to do anything, even listen, and that Agency is key.

I'd prefer to discuss that particular aspect in a different thread, though.

Just letting you know, I do appreciate the input, both from DS and Tom!

[DigitalShadow]

I'm going to go with "One of those 3 statements"

Should be:

-God wants to communicate to us to let us know his true nature, but does not want to force us to do it, but let us of our own choosing.Very strong LDS belief that God does not want to force us to do anything, even listen, and that Agency is key.

I'd prefer to discuss that particular aspect in a different thread, though.

Just letting you know, I do appreciate the input, both from DS and Tom!

God can communicate with us clearly and still leave following His word up to the individual, thus not violating my perception of free agency. I've brought this up before and given the analogy that I can see and hear and communicate with my parents just fine, but I don't always obey them.

With that said, whether listening is part of free agency or not is an entirely different discussion though so I will conceed that your rephrasing of the third premise makes it fit the conclusion, good catch. I can tell I'm going to enjoy these discussions :)

[VisionOfLehi]

M y parents can talk to me all I want, doesn't mean I'm listening.

>_< Ask my mom. She's constantly saying "I already told you to do this."

"I never heard you! You probably said it when I wasn't listening."

Hahaha.

P.S. This is not an anecdote made up for humor, but is in fact a true story... that's happened several times.

[DigitalShadow]

M y parents can talk to me all I want, doesn't mean I'm listening.

>_< Ask my mom. She's constantly saying "I already told you to do this."

"I never heard you! You probably said it when I wasn't listening."

Hahaha.

P.S. This is not an anecdote made up for humor, but is in fact a true story... that's happened several times.

Heh, I know what you mean, I have the same issue with my wife sometimes. But my point is that whether or not you are paying attention, you still know it is your parents talking to you and if you wanted to listen to them, you could. I am trying as hard as I can to listen to what God is presumably telling me, but I hear nothing. I have chosen to listen already and it would not violate my free agency to send me in the right direction, but I hear nothing.

[VisionOfLehi]

Actually, in some cases I'm not even aware my mom was telling me something, I'm so absorbed in whatever else I was doing that it doesn't register at all.

[DigitalShadow]

Actually, in some cases I'm not even aware my mom was telling me something, I'm so absorbed in whatever else I was doing that it doesn't register at all.

But if you take time to listen to her, you have no problem hearing what she is saying. I assume you relate reading scriptures and praying to taking the time to listen to God, but many people do just that and either don't get a response (like me) or get a response leading them to an entirely different church and message.

-God is perfect and all-powerful

-We are God's creations and He designed every intimate detail of us

-God wants to communicate with us to let us know his true nature, but does not want to force us to do it, but let us of our own choosing.

Given those premises, one could draw that conclusion that anyone who chooses to listen to God and honestly tries should be able to hear and communicate with Him. This is obviously not the case though. Many people all over the world pray to God and get a variety of responses ranging from nothing to instructions to go kill people in His name.

[Guest tomk]

But if you take time to listen to her, you have no problem hearing what she is saying. I assume you relate reading scriptures and praying to taking the time to listen to God, but many people do just that and either don't get a response (like me) or get a response leading them to an entirely different church and message.

-God is perfect and all-powerful

-We are God's creations and He designed every intimate detail of us

-God wants to communicate with us to let us know his true nature, but does not want to force us to do it, but let us of our own choosing.

Given those premises, one could draw that conclusion that anyone who chooses to listen to God and honestly tries should be able to hear and communicate with Him. This is obviously not the case though. Many people all over the world pray to God and get a variety of responses ranging from nothing to instructions to go kill people in His name.

I think I would say they are all getting the SAME message from God.

Have you ever played the following game?

Sit in a circle with a group of friends. Whisper a message into your neighbor's ear that you have written down on a piece of paper. Then have your neighbor whisper the message into the ear of the one beside him, and so forth and so on. By the time the message gets back to you, more often than not, it bears **some** resemblance to the original message, but is not word for word. In the worst case, it bears no resemblance to the original message!!

Is it your fault that the message is garbled by the time it gets back to you? No, of course not.

Do you blame someone in the circle for not relaying the message properly? No, they did the best they could, but they're just human beings, for crying-out loud!! Things get lost in translation.

The scenarios you describe, including the extremes, are the result of people taking that pure message from God, and molding it to their own purposes, passions and desires.

As a general rule, God commands us not to kill. But in a time of war, we are commanded to take life, in the defense of our country and families, and God does not fault us for it.

One might argue that the Islamic extremists consider themselves to be in just such a war. What is actually in their hearts, maybe we don't really know, but based on the Light of Christ that is in me -- I suspect that what they are doing will not hold water when they face God. At some point I think they have rationalized themselves into going against their conscience. Nor are we expected to just sit on our butts and let them slaughter us. That is not pleasing to God, either.

But remember the message passed around the circle. It is not God's fault they got it wrong.

But my point is -- just because the rest of the world seems a bit GREY in their following of the ONE truth that God is broadcasting to us -- that has nothing to do with us individually. We each have to chart our OWN individual course in life by developing our relationship with the Savior.

Take the same "game" above and modify it. In the new "game" -- YOU, PERSONALLY, go to each person in the circle, and whisper the message into their ear as you read it off of the paper. Chances are much better that you will get back from them the basic contents of the original message. Much more so than if you trust that message to survive the circle.

God does not want us to rely on MAN for his truth. He wants us to come to Him personally.

I know I know -- :) --- you are waiting for it. Be patient and it will happen. I am still working on the words that will "make sense" to you, but I don't have high hopes of that, since it is between you and God alone. :)

[DigitalShadow]

I think I would say they are all getting the SAME message from God.

Have you ever played the following game?

Sit in a circle with a group of friends. Whisper a message into your neighbor's ear that you have written down on a piece of paper. Then have your neighbor whisper the message into the ear of the one beside him, and so forth and so on. By the time the message gets back to you, more often than not, it bears **some** resemblance to the original message, but is not word for word. In the worst case, it bears no resemblance to the original message!!

Is it your fault that the message is garbled by the time it gets back to you? No, of course not.

Do you blame someone in the circle for not relaying the message properly? No, they did the best they could, but they're just human beings, for crying-out loud!! Things get lost in translation.

The scenarios you describe, including the extremes, are the result of people taking that pure message from God, and molding it to their own purposes, passions and desires.

As a general rule, God commands us not to kill. But in a time of war, we are commanded to take life, in the defense of our country and families, and God does not fault us for it.

One might argue that the Islamic extremists consider themselves to be in just such a war. What is actually in their hearts, maybe we don't really know, but based on the Light of Christ that is in me -- I suspect that what they are doing will not hold water when they face God. At some point I think they have rationalized themselves into going against their conscience. Nor are we expected to just sit on our butts and let them slaughter us. That is not pleasing to God, either.

But remember the message passed around the circle. It is not God's fault they got it wrong.

But my point is -- just because the rest of the world seems a bit GREY in their following of the ONE truth that God is broadcasting to us -- that has nothing to do with us individually. We each have to chart our OWN individual course in life by developing our relationship with the Savior.

I think you are missing my point. God is a perfect and all powerful being. He also designed every detail of us. He is also trying to communicate his true nature to us. My contention was that He would have no trouble doing so if all those statements were correct. VisionOfLehi stated that forcing us to listen would violate our free agency, but then I revised my statements to include that many people are trying to communicate with God and have already decided to listen, so in no way would God be violating free agency by communicting clearly with them. If a perfect being designed a creature with the intent to communicate with it later, why would the message get so garbled as with the game you mentioned?