Lost Books Of The Bible

[boloki]

There are about 20 lost books mentioned in the Bible. Because they're mentioned IN the Bible does that mean that they are SUPPOSED to be IN the Bible? We don't have those lost books and so who does? Where are they? I've checked Lost and found and...hmmm... Nothin'.

[HiJolly]

There are about 20 lost books mentioned in the Bible. Because they're mentioned IN the Bible does that mean that they are SUPPOSED to be IN the Bible? We don't have those lost books and so who does? Where are they? I've checked Lost and found and...hmmm... Nothin'.

Very funny. You checked. Right.

I think it's quite pointless to talk/debate concerning whats "supposed" to be in the Bible. That was decided over 1600 years ago, and it's totally not up to us.

Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon speak of several prophet's writings that were accepted as true by the faithful of that day, but are not found in today's Bible. Do you disagree?

Maybe they burned up with the rest of the library of Alexandria. Maybe they're still hidden in yet ANOTHER cave. Considering the evidence, that second idea is quite likely accurate.

HiJolly

[Snow]

There are about 20 lost books mentioned in the Bible. Because they're mentioned IN the Bible does that mean that they are SUPPOSED to be IN the Bible?

Only if you think that the person mentioning them is the one who is authorized by God to decide what gets into the bible. Is that what you believe?

In as much as the bible did not exist until centuries after the last of the bible books was written - and so the ones picking the bible books were not the ones writing the books, I'd say no.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Maybe it doesn't actually matter what is 'supposed' to be in the Bible if we remember that the Bible is not in itself a book but simply a collection of individual writings. Perhaps these 'lost books' have survived somewhere and will come to light one day. That will be when it will be important to treat them with the respect that those writers in our Bible who mention them obviously did and not just dismiss them because they are not part of our current Bible.

[Snow]

...remember that the Bible is not in itself a book...

???

[EruditioSalvatus]

There's several texts not included in the bible for various reasons.

Most, or all, of the 'missing books' are old testament references to texts that contain decrees, records, and histories. The best guess as to why these texts were left out of the old testament is either 1) they were boring or 2) the old testament was modeled after the Pentateuch and if those texts got cut once they were probably unknown or inaccessible to christian scribes.

WillowTheWisp makes a good point. The bible is less of a book and more of an omnibus of sorts. There are several christian texts that were never seen as good enough to make it in the bible. This gave rise to idea of 'lost books' of the bible, namely the apocrypha. So why, especially if they have access to the texts, are the texts absent?

Politics, politics, politics is the best answer.

Some books were written too late and didn't make it under the 'canon deadline.' Others were considered unimportant; contradicted other, more important texts; weren't popular enough; or deemed heretical because their teachings or ideas were contrary to what the bible consolidators believed or wanted. Finally, some were considered too fantastic to be believed or true (ironically, the book or revelations almost didn't make it because of the reason, go figure).

~ES

[Guest GhostRider]

In my studies there as stated here missing books of the bible. The Book of Jashure is one of them. There are also many boks that are mysteries to us. like the Q documant.

Personally I would love to read these old documents. There would be a wealth of information of historical value that would go along with these. That is just the history buff coming out in me

[WillowTheWhisp]

???

No need for the ??? if you read the second half of the sentence and don't just quote the first half out of context. It is people regarding the Bible as a single entity which causes all those problems with the quote in Revelation about not adding to or removing anything from 'this book' - they assume 'this book' means the Bible when in fact it means the Book of Revelation.

Just the clarify: the Bible is a collection of books, compiled into one volume (a bit like an omnibus edition of a series of novels all bound into the one publication). It hasn't always contained the same books and in fact some editions of the Bible used in different churches today contain different books.

Finally, some were considered too fantastic to be believed or true (ironically, the book or revelations almost didn't make it because of the reason, go figure).

~ES

That's quite an interesting point when you think of how much importance is placed on it now.

[Snow]

No need for the ??? if you read the second half of the sentence and don't just quote the first half out of context. It is people regarding the Bible as a single entity which causes all those problems with the quote in Revelation about not adding to or removing anything from 'this book' - they assume 'this book' means the Bible when in fact it means the Book of Revelation.

Just the clarify: the Bible is a collection of books, compiled into one volume (a bit like an omnibus edition of a series of novels all bound into the one publication). It hasn't always contained the same books and in fact some editions of the Bible used in different churches today contain different books.

Okay, but the bible is a book, in itself or otherwise.

[WillowTheWhisp]

Would you accept that there are different editions of the Bible which contain different books though? I've got different ones here and some have more books in them than the King James version which our church uses - so how can we define 'the Bible' when there are different Bibles containing different books?

[tubaloth]

There are about 20 lost books mentioned in the Bible

If you count the the book of mormon the D&C and the Pearl of great price. This number not found in the bible would be larger.

Because they're mentioned IN the Bible does that mean that they are SUPPOSED to be IN the Bible?

I guess that kind of could be a trick question in some sense. Are these books "Suppose to" be in the bible? Maybe not...

Does that mean they aren't scripture? No. Just because they didn't make the cut into the bible, doesn't mean mean

1. The words are unimportant

2. They words have no value, (Or they aren't as valued as the books in the bible).

In the LDS church we should know first hand about Lost books. Mostly the Book of Lehi is really a lost book. But we realize that God knew this from the start, and made a way so we could still get the same ideas? the same teachings in other books.

This is what I think the Lord did. He knew books would get tossed out (for what ever reason). He knew that bible would be "corrupt" in some ways. But the Lord new during the latter days he would bring forth MORE scripture. So not only do we have the correct version of Matthew 24, but also we have a deeper account of Enoch (which we know he has some writings and we know its bound to come forth again), we have the Jacob 5, because it was cut out of the bible. Even D&C 93 is a writing of John, that we don't even know where the writing (paper) is at? It was translation by vision.

Where are they?

God knows where they are. Really its kind of matter if we use what scripture we have, (and obey it), then he well give us more scripture!

[skalenfehl]

I recently posted in another thread (can't find the buried post) about a dozen or so books and writings, which are mentioned in the Bible, but are not found in the Bible such as the Book of Jasher (Joshua 10:13), the Book of Shemaiah (2 Chron 12:15) and more.

John 21: 25

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

As with the Book of Mormon there are countless books and writings of prophets that were not included in the canon of scripture known by us today as the Holy Bible and the same goes for the Book of Mormon.

From Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses:

...Oliver says that when Joseph and Oliver went there, the hill opened, and they walked into a cave, in which there was a large and spacious room. He says he did not think, at the time, whether they had the light of the sun or artificial light; but that it was just as light as day. They laid the plates on a table; it was a large table that stood in the room. Under this table there was a pile of plates as much as two feet high, and there were altogether in this room more plates than probably many wagon loads; they were piled up in the corners and along the walls...

source: Cumorah's Cave - Maxwell Institute JBMS

[skalenfehl]

I should also note something interesting. Nephi taught his people from the scriptures (brass plates containing the books of Moses, Isaiah and even some unknown prophets like Zenos, Zenock and Neum, which are all Hebrew prophets of Israel until the time of the prophet Jeremiah). Had it not been for Nephi and other Book of Mormon prophets, we would never know about them or Zenos' writing of the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees found in Jacob chapter five.

1 Ne. 19: 10, 12, 16

10 And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.

• • •

12 And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers.

• • •

16 Yea, then will he remember the isles of the sea; yea, and all the people who are of the house of Israel, will I gather in, saith the Lord, according to the words of the prophet Zenos, from the four quarters of the earth.

Alma 33: 3, 13, 15

3 Do ye remember to have read what Zenos, the prophet of old, has said concerning prayer or worship?

• • •

13 Behold, if ye do, ye must believe what Zenos said; for, behold he said: Thou hast turned away thy judgments because of thy Son.

• • •

15 For it is not written that Zenos alone spake of these things, but Zenock also spake of these things—

Jacob 5: 1

1 Behold, my brethren, do ye not remember to have read the words of the prophet Zenos, which he spake unto the house of Israel, saying:

Jacob 6: 1

1 And now, behold, my brethren, as I said unto you that I would prophesy, behold, this is my prophecy—that the things which this prophet Zenos spake, concerning the house of Israel, in the which he likened them unto a tame olive-tree, must surely come to pass.

Alma 34: 7

7 My brother has called upon the words of Zenos, that redemption cometh through the Son of God, and also upon the words of Zenock; and also he has appealed unto Moses, to prove that these things are true.

Hel. 8: 19

19 And now I would that ye should know, that even since the days of Abraham there have been many prophets that have testified these things; yea, behold, the prophet Zenos did testify boldly; for the which he was slain.

Hel. 15: 11

11 Yea, even if they should dwindle in unbelief the Lord shall prolong their days, until the time shall come which hath been spoken of by our fathers, and also by the prophet Zenos, and many other prophets, concerning the restoration of our brethren, the Lamanites, again to the knowledge of the truth—

3 Ne. 10: 16

16 Yea, the prophet Zenos did testify of these things, and also Zenock spake concerning these things, because they testified particularly concerning us, who are the remnant of their seed.

I suppose if those, who canonized the Bible, saw fit to include Zenos' and Zenock's writings in the Old Testament as found in the brass plates that were handed down until Laban, people today would know that, based on the last scripture I provided, the world would have known concerning the people of the Book of Mormon and would never have needed to ask "Why is the Book of Mormon not talked about in the Bible?" (Beside the brief mention of the Stick of Joseph found in the book of Ezekiel).

[Snow]

Would you accept that there are different editions of the Bible which contain different books though? I've got different ones here and some have more books in them than the King James version which our church uses - so how can we define 'the Bible' when there are different Bibles containing different books?

I really don't know what your point is. The smallest bible is the Samaritan bible with just 5 books and the largest is the Ethiopian canon with 81 books. Both books are books however, in and of themselves or otherwise.

[Traveler]

The more we learn about the ancient tests that have become the modern version of the Bible the more we understand the evolution of religious thinking through time among Christians. There are a number of ancient texts of great interest. For example there is the epistle of Jesus. This text has been preserved by the Eastern Christians and has been carbon dated to the time of Christ and the parchment on which it was written could have only come from somewhere close to Jerusalem. The letter is said to be written by the hand of Jesus to an ancient Asian king. I have never heard a good reason why this manuscript is unacceptable to the Christian community that claims to have all the worthy “words” of G-d.

Another prominent text is the Book of Enoch that is quoted as scripture in the Book of Jude. All of the reasons argued in history as to why this book was not included were proven to be false with the manuscript of Enoch found in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Some other prominent texts are the Testaments of the Patriarchs. I especially find the Testament of Benjamin interesting because of the reference to a Prophet called to the gentiles in the last days that will be of the house of Joseph and how this prophet will “restore” many things that were lost and make known many things that were previously unknown.

There are also several New Testament texts that give insight to the time of Jesus and supply much of the information used by scholars to fill in most of the traditions surrounding major events like the birth of Jesus and why John the Baptist grew up in the “wilderness”.

I realize there are reasons why some of various Christian detonations are not excited to recognize the importance of many of the ancient text. When researching the texts of the Bible and other associated text of the time, I have learned when it comes to many regarding such things in religion that they would stand at noon day in broad daylight and declare it night.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

I should also note something interesting. Nephi taught his people from the scriptures (brass plates containing the books of Moses, Isaiah and even some unknown prophets like Zenos, Zenock and Neum, which are all Hebrew prophets of Israel until the time of the prophet Jeremiah). Had it not been for Nephi and other Book of Mormon prophets, we would never know about them or Zenos' writing of the allegory of the tame and wild olive trees found in Jacob chapter five.

1 Ne. 19: 10, 12, 16

10 And the God of our fathers, who were led out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel.

• • •

12 And all these things must surely come, saith the prophet Zenos. And the rocks of the earth must rend; and because of the groanings of the earth, many of the kings of the isles of the sea shall be wrought upon by the Spirit of God, to exclaim: The God of nature suffers.

• • •

16 Yea, then will he remember the isles of the sea; yea, and all the people who are of the house of Israel, will I gather in, saith the Lord, according to the words of the prophet Zenos, from the four quarters of the earth.

Alma 33: 3, 13, 15

3 Do ye remember to have read what Zenos, the prophet of old, has said concerning prayer or worship?

• • •

13 Behold, if ye do, ye must believe what Zenos said; for, behold he said: Thou hast turned away thy judgments because of thy Son.

• • •

15 For it is not written that Zenos alone spake of these things, but Zenock also spake of these things—

Jacob 5: 1

1 Behold, my brethren, do ye not remember to have read the words of the prophet Zenos, which he spake unto the house of Israel, saying:

Jacob 6: 1

1 And now, behold, my brethren, as I said unto you that I would prophesy, behold, this is my prophecy—that the things which this prophet Zenos spake, concerning the house of Israel, in the which he likened them unto a tame olive-tree, must surely come to pass.

Alma 34: 7

7 My brother has called upon the words of Zenos, that redemption cometh through the Son of God, and also upon the words of Zenock; and also he has appealed unto Moses, to prove that these things are true.

Hel. 8: 19

19 And now I would that ye should know, that even since the days of Abraham there have been many prophets that have testified these things; yea, behold, the prophet Zenos did testify boldly; for the which he was slain.

Hel. 15: 11

11 Yea, even if they should dwindle in unbelief the Lord shall prolong their days, until the time shall come which hath been spoken of by our fathers, and also by the prophet Zenos, and many other prophets, concerning the restoration of our brethren, the Lamanites, again to the knowledge of the truth—

3 Ne. 10: 16

16 Yea, the prophet Zenos did testify of these things, and also Zenock spake concerning these things, because they testified particularly concerning us, who are the remnant of their seed.

I suppose if those, who canonized the Bible, saw fit to include Zenos' and Zenock's writings in the Old Testament as found in the brass plates that were handed down until Laban, people today would know that, based on the last scripture I provided, the world would have known concerning the people of the Book of Mormon and would never have needed to ask "Why is the Book of Mormon not talked about in the Bible?" (Beside the brief mention of the Stick of Joseph found in the book of Ezekiel).

Just a note: The Hebrew names Zenok and Zadok are very similar and can be considered a typo. The Book of Zadok that was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls does indeed include all that is referenced in the Book of Mormon.

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

Interesting. Are the writings of Zadok from the Dead Sea Scrolls available for reading?