Expelled

[DigitalShadow]

I don't know how many of you have heard of Ben Stein's upcoming "documentary" called Expelled, but I have heard quite a bit about it in the forums that I frequent. The basic premise is that "Big Science" (I kid you not, that is the phrase he uses) is unfairly discriminating against creationist scientists who do not fall in line with the "Darwinist" (I have never heard a scientist use that word) agenda. The movie highlights a few tales of such "injustice" and then goes on to claim that the theory of evolution directly caused The Holocaust and then shows clips of famous atheist scientists talking spliced with images of Nazi concentration camps.

For those who are interested, here are a few links: Expelled, Expelled Exposed

I'm not sure how this movie can be classified as anything other than anti-evolution propaganda promoting the growing anti-intellectualism in America. It acts as if Creationism is a superior competing scientific theory that is not looked at because scientists are "dogmaticly" following Darwin. The problem with their claim is that Creationism is not a theory, it is a belief. There is nothing wrong with believing in it, but it offers no predictions, testable conditions or insight into anything. It simply has nothing to do with science and has no place in a science class or anywhere but a church really. What would Creationism research and experiments even look like anyway?

Evolution is the generally accepted theory because there is ample evidence for it and many experiments have supported the conclusion. If there is evidence for another theory that explains life on earth so well, then it will be looked into but so far, no such theory has even been proposed. It is true that in science sometimes good theories are stifled by the status quo, but in those cases experiments are done and evidence is presented and finally the paradigm shifts; science in general is a self-correcting system. Crying foul to the public and presenting no evidence to back up your claims does nothing to further the cause of science and can only be seen as a blatant politcal move serving to only further divide America.

Why am I ranting about all this? Because I've already seen people blindly eating up this propaganda who are outraged at science in general. The success of this movie deeply depresses me and almost makes me wish I lived in a more secular country.

[Misshalfway]

I can understand why you might feel a little disturbed. The reaction of some to dismiss evolution all together perhaps seems too extreme. I think that some feel that the doctrine of evolution eliminates God and His ability to create man. I am not sure that is what the evidence of evolution is saying. I do think that is what some of its interpretations are leading some to believe and I think that alarms people of faith.

I for one believe in evolution......at least in principle. I am not convinced that every conclusion that is made as a result of the evidence is accurate. I think God uses evolution as one of his creative tools. But it isn't the only one. I think that closing ones mind to other possibilities just because we don't see all the evidence of it, is all just as much of an exaggerated response as the above.

This is actually one of the reasons I love the LDS church so much. Science is viewed as a harmonious part of earth life and religious understanding. To us it helps us to understand God and the world he created. It is all about truth and finding truth in all of its areas.

[JohnBirchSociety]

I don't know how many of you have heard of Ben Stein's upcoming "documentary" called Expelled, but I have heard quite a bit about it in the forums that I frequent. The basic premise is that "Big Science" (I kid you not, that is the phrase he uses) is unfairly discriminating against creationist scientists who do not fall in line with the "Darwinist" (I have never heard a scientist use that word) agenda. The movie highlights a few tales of such "injustice" and then goes on to claim that the theory of evolution directly caused The Holocaust and then shows clips of famous atheist scientists talking spliced with images of Nazi concentration camps.

For those who are interested, here are a few links: Expelled, Expelled Exposed

I'm not sure how this movie can be classified as anything other than anti-evolution propaganda promoting the growing anti-intellectualism in America. It acts as if Creationism is a superior competing scientific theory that is not looked at because scientists are "dogmaticly" following Darwin. The problem with their claim is that Creationism is not a theory, it is a belief. There is nothing wrong with believing in it, but it offers no predictions, testable conditions or insight into anything. It simply has nothing to do with science and has no place in a science class or anywhere but a church really. What would Creationism research and experiments even look like anyway?

Evolution is the generally accepted theory because there is ample evidence for it and many experiments have supported the conclusion. If there is evidence for another theory that explains life on earth so well, then it will be looked into but so far, no such theory has even been proposed. It is true that in science sometimes good theories are stifled by the status quo, but in those cases experiments are done and evidence is presented and finally the paradigm shifts; science in general is a self-correcting system. Crying foul to the public and presenting no evidence to back up your claims does nothing to further the cause of science and can only be seen as a blatant politcal move serving to only further divide America.

Why am I ranting about all this? Because I've already seen people blindly eating up this propaganda who are outraged at science in general. The success of this movie deeply depresses me and almost makes me wish I lived in a more secular country.

Hmmmm.....

Would you be willing to show me a single piece of evidence for evolution?

I would LOVE to see some.

As to "Creationist", I think you're missing their point. Scientific observation leads to me thinking that the premise of "Evolution" (trans-species) is absurd. I think that science actually shows that the reasonable conclusion based upon the evidence is that there was an initial, intelligent design behind the appearance of Man / Earth in the Universe.

But, again, if you'd be so kind as to show me any evidence whatsoever for evolution, I'd be happy to re-evaluate my position.

When we remove GOD from the equation of life, then we are teaching our children that we don't have God-given rights (because God had nothing to do with our creation, etc). And we are teaching the ultimate in relativism, where there is no actual source for what is right and what is wrong. This is the danger behind "evolution" and "darwinism" in general. The scientific danger is great as well. It is such trumped up "science" that results in the absurdity of "Global Warming" etc...

I eagerly await your response.

[Hemidakota]

There bits of truths in Evolution. Whether or not Darwin and Lyle would confess the true nature of writing these postulations to the general public was not the intent to show the truth but to disprove the local religionists fanatics that GOD did not create the earth. Maybe that is why we have the Darwin award [humor].

Only a few handful of people ever seen the creation and really know what did transpired and the mechanics on how it was done. We must always remember, the Dinos were not part of the latter creation as Abraham saw and did not roam when Adam was created. This maybe hard to grasp for many, including LDS members, it goes back to Joseph in seeing what happened prior to this earth second round of creation. The one prior stopped at the animals.

Now, is this important to know this? We I see the term Church of Abomination [Nephi quoted], I see the mixture of both man made religions and science mixed in the heap. We as saints must have at least a basic understanding of the past and why.

I do believe if we remove all the global factories, automobiles, and so forth, the earth will still have global warming. There is reasoning behind this since it readying for a change to its state from Telestial to Terrestrial.

[DigitalShadow]

Hmmmm.....

Would you be willing to show me a single piece of evidence for evolution?

I would LOVE to see some.

As to "Creationist", I think you're missing their point. Scientific observation leads to me thinking that the premise of "Evolution" (trans-species) is absurd. I think that science actually shows that the reasonable conclusion based upon the evidence is that there was an initial, intelligent design behind the appearance of Man / Earth in the Universe.

But, again, if you'd be so kind as to show me any evidence whatsoever for evolution, I'd be happy to re-evaluate my position.

When we remove GOD from the equation of life, then we are teaching our children that we don't have God-given rights (because God had nothing to do with our creation, etc). And we are teaching the ultimate in relativism, where there is no actual source for what is right and what is wrong. This is the danger behind "evolution" and "darwinism" in general. The scientific danger is great as well. It is such trumped up "science" that results in the absurdity of "Global Warming" etc...

I eagerly await your response.

Have you ever even talked to a biologist? Let's start with the simplest example I can think of.

Have you ever been to a doctor, found out you had a bacterial infection (like strep throat) and been given antibiotics? They tell you to make sure that finish all of them and keep taking the antibiotics even if you start feeling better. Do you know why? Because if you don't kill the entire bacteria population there is a chance that since bacteria breed so quickly the mutations in their DNA combined with the strong selective pressure of the antibiotic could create a new strain resistant to the antibiotic you're taking.

Is that not enough for you? Are you one of those people who pretends there is "microevolution" but a magical barrier preventing it from becoming "macroevolution" over millions of years of change and that there is no such thing as speciation? Here, I'll give you more conclusive evidence.

You can use the DNA evidence and find ancestry between different species in existance today through common endogenous retroviruses (ERVs) embedded in our DNA through the eons. Basically a class of virus called a retrovirus embeds its own DNA into an arbitrary place of the cell it infects. Sometimes, very rarely, it manages to infect a sperm or egg cell which manages to get carried to term and then that organism and its children will now have this virus DNA as a part of every cell in their body and pass it on to their children as well. It turns out that roughly 8% of our DNA is from these viruses and essentially 'junk DNA' we carry around. It is however useful in tracking when the divergence of species occurred and which species are more closely related. This is direct evidence that seperate species can share a common ancestor and it has been confirmed that we (humans) do indeed share several ERVs with chimpanzees.

This is the strongest piece of evidence for evolution I've seen so far and I have yet to hear any theory that offers an alternate explaination for these shared ERVs. We've seen how they get into the gene pool, we've seen how they are transferred from parent to child and we've seen that we share them with other species. I don't see how any intellectually honest scientist can casually disregard this evidence and believe that speciation through evolution is impossible.

If you have an open mind and truly want to learn more about the subject I suggest starting here: Evolution

I eagerly await the re-evaluation of your position.

[DigitalShadow]

I can understand why you might feel a little disturbed. The reaction of some to dismiss evolution all together perhaps seems too extreme. I think that some feel that the doctrine of evolution eliminates God and His ability to create man. I am not sure that is what the evidence of evolution is saying. I do think that is what some of its interpretations are leading some to believe and I think that alarms people of faith.

I for one believe in evolution......at least in principle. I am not convinced that every conclusion that is made as a result of the evidence is accurate. I think God uses evolution as one of his creative tools. But it isn't the only one. I think that closing ones mind to other possibilities just because we don't see all the evidence of it, is all just as much of an exaggerated response as the above.

This is actually one of the reasons I love the LDS church so much. Science is viewed as a harmonious part of earth life and religious understanding. To us it helps us to understand God and the world he created. It is all about truth and finding truth in all of its areas.

Whether or not people accept evolution was not the point of the post. I will correct misconceptions about evolution (such as there being no evidence for it) on this thread, but what is bothering me is this growing anti-science attitude the public is getting and the fact that they're more likely to be swayed by a shoddy sensationalist "documentary" than by evidence and experiments and critical thinking.

There is no such thing as a "Darwinist agenda" or massive consortium of scientists that go on Creationist witch hunts. But do people investigate the stories before buying into the nonsense? No, they hear someone who they think is a smart guy ranting about a nonexistant conspiracy and they're absolutely convinced. Ben Stein is an actor / gameshow host / ex-Nixon speech writer/ Visine salesman. He isn't even a part of the scientific community and the producer lied to all the scientists they got to speak in the movie, then took out of context clips to make them look bad.

[Misshalfway]

Whether or not people accept evolution was not the point of the post. I will correct misconceptions about evolution (such as there being no evidence for it) on this thread, but what is bothering me is this growing anti-science attitude the public is getting and the fact that they're more likely to be swayed by a shoddy sensationalist "documentary" than by evidence and experiments and critical thinking.

There is no such thing as a "Darwinist agenda" or massive consortium of scientists that go on Creationist witch hunts. But do people investigate the stories before buying into the nonsense? No, they hear someone who they think is a smart guy ranting about a nonexistant conspiracy and they're absolutely convinced. Ben Stein is an actor / gameshow host / ex-Nixon speech writer/ Visine salesman. He isn't even a part of the scientific community and the producer lied to all the scientists they got to speak in the movie, then took out of context clips to make them look bad.

All the more reason for the need of revelation from God. Everyone has an agenda. And where there isn't an agenda there is limited understanding.

And I must say that praying to God is much more efficient than going to school for decades and reading long winded, hardly understandable science books. Which is really good for people like me who don't have scientific wiring!!

I can kneel, ask, and receive. God is my Father. He created me. He told me so. And I believe. See? Simple. So the rest of the world can go on and on about creationism and or evolution. And I can sit back with my perfect knowledge sipping on a lemonade.

[checkerboy]

Wow sounds like now that the shoe is on the other foot all the liberal "do gooders" are all up in arms. How dare we use sensationalism to try to sway public opinion? Tell that to Michael Moore!

[Misshalfway]

Wow sounds like now that the shoe is on the other foot all the liberal "do gooders" are all up in arms. How dare we use sensationalism to try to sway public opinion? Tell that to Michael Moore!

Ha ha ha! Good point.

[DigitalShadow]

Wow sounds like now that the shoe is on the other foot all the liberal "do gooders" are all up in arms. How dare we use sensationalism to try to sway public opinion? Tell that to Michael Moore!

I don't consider myself a liberal or a conservative and yes, I find Michael Moore equally offensive. In fact on the Expelled website, in the same sentence their call their own movie a documentary, they compare it to the documentaries of Michael Moore. Sensationalist crap is sensationalist crap no matter who is spewing it or what their agenda is.

[DigitalShadow]

All the more reason for the need of revelation from God. Everyone has an agenda. And where there isn't an agenda there is limited understanding.

And I must say that praying to God is much more efficient than going to school for decades and reading long winded, hardly understandable science books. Which is really good for people like me who don't have scientific wiring!!

I can kneel, ask, and receive. God is my Father. He created me. He told me so. And I believe. See? Simple. So the rest of the world can go on and on about creationism and or evolution. And I can sit back with my perfect knowledge sipping on a lemonade.

The only problem is that God seems to tell everyone different things so while it is certainly an "easier" method to just ask God everthing, I don't know how anyone can call it a "reliable" method

[crytsprospect]

Isn't it foolish for us to just believe one or the other theory. I believe in creation but evolution is a part of it or do I oversimplify things???

[DigitalShadow]

Isn't it foolish for us to just believe one or the other theory. I believe in creation but evolution is a part of it or do I oversimplify things???

It isn't foolish to believe one side or the other or both. People have felt "spiritual" evidence for Creationism and people have seen physical evidence for evolution. You can believe whatever you want but telling blatant lies in an attempt to sway the public to your side is bad form no matter which side you're on.

[crytsprospect]

Ok but for me I see the truth in both. They work in some ways hand in hand. Its not one or the other. Your very worked up but can you do something about it ???? If I can't do something it is a total waste of time to rant about it. Satan loves for us to all be worked up and rant at each other. I respect your freedom to believe all you want. If there is good I choose to see it.

[Misshalfway]

The only problem is that God seems to tell everyone different things so while it is certainly an "easier" method to just ask God everthing, I don't know how anyone can call it a "reliable" method

Wait until you get the answers. Then you will know. And I will pass the lemonade!

[DigitalShadow]

Ok but for me I see the truth in both. They work in some ways hand in hand. Its not one or the other. Your very worked up but can you do something about it ???? If I can't do something it is a total waste of time to rant about it. Satan loves for us to all be worked up and rant at each other. I respect your freedom to believe all you want. If there is good I choose to see it.

Evolution has shown its truth to me through evidence and experiments, so far Creationism has shown me nothing. If my view is a little one-sided it is because God hasn't seen fit to weigh in on the subject for me, so you can call it foolish if you like, but evidence is all I have to go on and evolution is where the evidence points.

Yes, I am a bit worked up over the movie, but all I can do about it is post here and maybe one or two people see the movie with a slightly more balanced view. Does it help the overall public view of science? Probably not, but it's all I can do and it does make me feel somewhat better to talk about it rather than to just let it stew in my mind.

[Misshalfway]

Vent away! It is all good.

[crytsprospect]

I guess this is one of those no brainers for me I see that evoulution cound not be without creation and visa versa. I have read many a scientist that believes in both but your free to belive what you choose. I wasn't trying to rile you I just don't understand how or why some people get so worked up on one side or the other and they both hold truths. Thats all.

[DigitalShadow]

I guess this is one of those no brainers for me I see that evoulution cound not be without creation and visa versa. I have read many a scientist that believes in both but your free to belive what you choose. I wasn't trying to rile you I just don't understand how or why some people get so worked up on one side or the other and they both hold truths. Thats all.

I'm not riled up about what other people believe, I'm riled up about the movie's portrayal of the scientific community and the utter crap it is spewing about the theory of evolution causing The Holocaust. I got slightly annoyed when someone claimed there was NO evidence for evolution and implied it was laughable to think that there was, but that was just a tangent.

[sgallan]

I wouldn't get to worked up about it Digital Shadow..... those who espouse creationalism will still be creating career suicide if they make an issue of this within science education. And I know I've mentioned this sort of thing on this board before so people shouldn't surprised. Legitimate education doesn't suffer mythology within science venues gladly. This documentary won't change this fact.

This is as it should be because if folks want the "Biblical" theory of creationalism taught, I have a whole slew of other creationalist theories that should also get equal time. All of which could have a clever person come up with legitimate science to suggest they are true. There are so many of them it would be impossible to attempt to do the science for them. It would be absurd.

Now if somebody wants to touch on all this stuff in a humnities class..... they can knock themselves out.

[DigitalShadow]

I wouldn't get to worked up about it Digital Shadow..... those who espouse creationalism will still be creating career suicide if they make an issue of this within science education. And I know I've mentioned this sort of thing on this board before so people shouldn't surprised. Legitimate education doesn't suffer mythology within science venues gladly. This documentary won't change this fact.

This is as it should be because if folks want the "Biblical" theory of creationalism taught, I have a whole slew of other creationalist theories that should also get equal time. All of which could have a clever person come up with legitimate science to suggest they are true. There are so many of them it would be impossible to attempt to do the science for them. It would be absurd.

Now if somebody wants to touch on all this stuff in a humnities class..... they can knock themselves out.

I agree with you completely. This documentary will pass by and science as a whole will remain unaffected and go on with business as usual.

But what bothers me is not the impact on the scientific community but the impact on the public's perception of the scientific community as dogmatic atheists feeding the public false information. Perhaps I'm just cynical, but when I hear people laughing about the "theory of evolution" and how there is no evidence behind it, it seems only to confirm my fears.

[sgallan]

Most of the people who are going to this film are basically of the "preaching to the choir" type. They already think bad things about legitimate science and would have continued to whether this film was made or not.

[crytsprospect]

I am having problems getting posted So here goes again.... DS I am sure I have oversimplified things and will be sure to view the propaganda which alot of these films are and see what your gripe is. Your last comments to me made me realize I need to know more of what i Speak..... I was speaking in general and forgive me if I offended you as I have respected your comments on many subjects for some time.

[DigitalShadow]

Most of the people who are going to this film are basically of the "preaching to the choir" type. They already think bad things about legitimate science and would have continued to whether this film was made or not.

I believe you are probably correct. Good point :)

[DigitalShadow]

I am having problems getting posted So here goes again.... DS I am sure I have oversimplified things and will be sure to view the propaganda which alot of these films are and see what your gripe is. Your last comments to me made me realize I need to know more of what i Speak..... I was speaking in general and forgive me if I offended you as I have respected your comments on many subjects for some time.

Don't worry, no offense was taken. I am actually very difficult to offend. I occasionally get riled up about things but I don't hold any grudges and usually end up enjoying the spirited discussions :)