Jewish Friend, Law of Moses 4ever?

[zenoxman]

Christ came to fulfill the law, says Matt. 17. But didn't the Old Testament say somewhere that the "law shall stand forever"? I don't know where, and I can't find it. If the Old Testament never said that the law of Moses was permanent, my problem is solved. Otherwise, how can I explain it to a Jew?

P.S. Do jews just call the OT the scriptures?

[Traveler]

If you have interested Jewish friends I would tell them how following the murder of the Prophet Joseph Smith the saints fled into the wilderness where 1 of ever 5 died. Our enemies thought we all would perish but many survived and the great settlement of the western wilderness took place in one of histories greatest epoch of human migration. Despite severe hardships missionaries were sent though out the world and thousands came from all over the world to Utah to establish the Mormon empire.

The Mormons pressed for state hood but were denied as their territory of Deseret was divided and given to other settlers. Finely when the Mormons were to be given state hood the enemies of Mormonism in a last effort to antagonize the settlers forced a change in the name of the new state from Deseret to Utah. No power on earth could bring about the prophesies of G-d more distinctly and dramatically. For the name Utah in the language of the native Ute peoples literally means “The Top of the Mountains”.

Quoting now from the prophesy of Isaiah verses 2 and 3. “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the L-rd’s house shall be established in {the top of the mountains}, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the L-rd, to the house of the G-d of Jacob; and he shall teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the L-rd from Jerusalem.”

The Traveler

[Vanhin]

Hey Xenoxman,

Not to put too fine a point on it, but our Jewish brothers and sisters have been apostate for a bit longer than our Christian friends. What is nice about the Law of Moses, is that it was designed by God to be prepratory to the coming of the Messiah, and the priesthood of Melchizedek that he would restore. The deep symbolism in the the Law taught of the coming Redeemer, and his mission.

I think Jesus explained it pretty well.

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt. 5:17-19)

And the Book of Mormon gives us more understanding about the purpose of the Law of Moses:

23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we keep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled.

25 For, for this end was the law given; wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments.

26 And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins.

27 Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. And after the law is fulfilled in Christ, that they need not harden their hearts against him when the law ought to be done away.

28 And now behold, my people, ye are a stiffnecked people; wherefore, I have spoken plainly unto you, that ye cannot misunderstand. And the words which I have spoken shall stand as a testimony against you; for they are sufficient to teach any man the right way; for the right way is to believe in Christ and deny him not; for by denying him ye also deny the prophets and the law.

29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

30 And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses. (2 Ne. 25:23-30)

Anyway, those are some ideas I had.

Regards,

Vanhin

[WillowTheWhisp]

Yes I think this bit answers the question perfectly:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Christ came to fulfill the law, says Matt. 17. But didn't the Old Testament say somewhere that the "law shall stand forever"? I don't know where, and I can't find it. If the Old Testament never said that the law of Moses was permanent, my problem is solved. Otherwise, how can I explain it to a Jew?

P.S. Do jews just call the OT the scriptures?

A quick search through my memory and Scriptures.lds.org brings up no results for the key words you mentioned. If you have a Jewish friend who mentioned it, ask them for a specific reference and then we can compare notes.

As regards your postscript, the general easy answer is "yes" but most Jews will likely refer to their books of scripture using their proper names: the Torah and the Tanakh. You'll also often haer the Torah, which contains Genesis through Deuteronomy, referred to as "The Law" or "The Book of the Law", and technically the Torah is the 1st of 3 sections in the Tanakh. The Tanakh is, with a few differences, basically our Old Testament.

[EruditioSalvatus]

It is mentioned once or twice that I am aware of that the Covenants made between God and Moses are "perpetual" or lasting "for all generations," thus until the world ends there's Covenants and laws to be had. However, these Covenants were between the children of Israel and not the Goy, so the Goy would only have to follow the Noahide Laws, or "Seven Laws of Noah," instead of the standard 613 Commandments of God.

(here lies yet another extremely weird idea)

Now, following the extremely simple basis of 'God's Covenants are perpetual' and 'we are all children of God,' and ignoring the whole Goy issue, here's an 'outside the box' idea: what if the Laws of Moses still stand?

Jesus says he's not here to, "destroy, but to fulfill" and that until, "heaven and earth passes away" and until such time the Laws stand, unaltered, until it is wholly fulfilled.

Last time I checked heaven and earth are still here.

What if this is a prophecy Jesus is making for when he returns for his Millennial Reign? Knowing his corporeal time was short, Jesus is simply speaking of what was to transpire at some future point in time when the whole world is ready to accept a set of new laws and commandments.

Remember, he specifically says whomever breaks the commandments, or instructs others to, will get the room next to the noisy air conditioner in the Kingdom of Heaven, but whomever follows and teaches the commandments get the room with the extra pillow. No where does it say these commandments are to be ignored or done away with (I'm probably wrong, but don't know of any offhand) only that he shall fulfill said commandments.

[lilered]

I might be mistaken, but I thought the Jewish Faith doesn't believe in the NT. If so, then scriptures from the NT will not be valid to try to convince them.

[Vanhin]

Good post EruditioSalvatus. There are, of course, some parts of the law that were fulfilled in Christ, including the law that had been given even to Adam concerning sacrifice by the shedding of blood. That was done away with in the great and last sacrifice of the Lamb of God.

19 And ye shall offer up unto me no more the shedding of blood; yea, your sacrifices and your burnt offerings shall be done away, for I will accept none of your sacrifices and your burnt offerings.

20 And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost, even as the Lamanites, because of their faith in me at the time of their conversion, were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not. (3 Ne. 9:19-20)

But as Jesus Taught, "keeping the commandments" were still in effect. He even kicked up the requirements a little. In Matthew we read:

21 ¶ Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. (Matt. 5:21-22)

Jesus Christ is Jehovah (JHWH) of the Old Testament. He was the one who gave the law, and is the only One who can fulfill it.

Regards,

Vanhin

[Vanhin]

I might be mistaken, but I thought the Jewish Faith doesn't believe in the NT. If so, then scriptures from the NT will not be valid to try to convince them.

I see what you mean, but it is valid, in my opinion. In fact, the Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, and all the revelations of God, are a witness to all people that Jesus is the Christ. Moroni wrote the following about the Book of Mormon, that it was " to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations" (BoM, Title Page)

As you point out, however, many will probably reject them outright.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[EruditioSalvatus]

Jesus Christ is Jehovah (JHWH) of the Old Testament. He was the one who gave the law, and is the only One who can fulfill it.

That must be a LDS thing, right? Because the hundreds of Jewish people I know have never told me that, neither have I heard it in any Temple service I attended.

[Vanhin]

That must be a LDS thing, right? Because the hundreds of Jewish people I know have never told me that, neither have I heard it in any Temple service I attended.

Obviously if the Jewish people believed that Jesus is Jehovah, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. :) If the Jewish people believed that God himself is the Messiah, we wouldn't be having this discussion. You follow me?

It is a Christian thing to associate Jesus with God. Either way, it is Jehovah who gave the law to Moses, and if it is to be fulfilled, as we claim, then it is Jehovah that will do it.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[zenoxman]

Thank you all for your help.

I've found scriptures in the OT that say the law of Moses will be forever, but specifically for the children of Israel and their generations. I have enough evidence to try to convince my friend that the NT is real.

Goodbye, or see you on another thread,

zenoxman

[lostnfound]

It is mentioned once or twice that I am aware of that the Covenants made between God and Moses are "perpetual" or lasting "for all generations," thus until the world ends there's Covenants and laws to be had. However, these Covenants were between the children of Israel and not the Goy, so the Goy would only have to follow the Noahide Laws, or "Seven Laws of Noah," instead of the standard 613 Commandments of God.

(here lies yet another extremely weird idea)

Now, following the extremely simple basis of 'God's Covenants are perpetual' and 'we are all children of God,' and ignoring the whole Goy issue, here's an 'outside the box' idea: what if the Laws of Moses still stand?

Jesus says he's not here to, "destroy, but to fulfill" and that until, "heaven and earth passes away" and until such time the Laws stand, unaltered, until it is wholly fulfilled.

Last time I checked heaven and earth are still here.

What if this is a prophecy Jesus is making for when he returns for his Millennial Reign? Knowing his corporeal time was short, Jesus is simply speaking of what was to transpire at some future point in time when the whole world is ready to accept a set of new laws and commandments.

Remember, he specifically says whomever breaks the commandments, or instructs others to, will get the room next to the noisy air conditioner in the Kingdom of Heaven, but whomever follows and teaches the commandments get the room with the extra pillow. No where does it say these commandments are to be ignored or done away with (I'm probably wrong, but don't know of any offhand) only that he shall fulfill said commandments.

are you lds or some other faith background? :)

[VisionOfLehi]

Quoting now from the prophesy of Isaiah verses 2 and 3. “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the L-rd’s house shall be established in {the top of the mountains}, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the L-rd, to the house of the G-d of Jacob; and he shall teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths; for out of Zion shall go forth the law and the word of the L-rd from Jerusalem.”

The Traveler

Please note that "mountain" also refers to the temple. More like than referring to an actual location, in my place.

Try reading it as such:

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the chief temple of the Lord’s house shall be established in Zion (Independence, MO), and shall be exalted above the other temples; and all nations shall flow unto it.