Exploring religious theory

[DigitalShadow]

One reason we must live by faith, is because it is a measure of protection that a loving Heavenly Father has given us while in this imperfect and mortal state.

A mother has four children. Let's say that she set some cookies on the dining room table for guests that are coming over later, and only three of her children were around to hear her say, "Do not touch the cookies, they are for guests." A few minutes later, while the mother was out of the room, the fourth child comes in and sees the cookies on the table. He grabs one right away and eats it and walks away. Later, one of the other children sneaks in and steals a cookie. When the mother returns, she notices that two cookies are missing. She calls the children into the dining room, and inquires of them who took the cookies.

When she finds out that the one child who did not know that they were off limits ate one, she tells him that he should have asked first before taking a cookie. He says he is sorry and she has mercy on him. But the other child, who knew they were off limits, is more severely punished. He has to wash the dishes after the guests are gone, because he knew it was wrong to take a cookie.

Heavenly Father knew that we would make mistakes and act contrary to his will because of the imperfect and mortal state we would enter. If we had retained our former knowledge from the pre-mortal existence, we would be under greater condemnation when we sinned. The veil of forgetfulness and having to live by faith allows us a little buffer, because we start out not having a perfect knowledge. However, as we gain the necessary knowledge to save us from this condition, we are more accountable for our actions. That's why blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is so serious. If it wasn't for the need to live by faith, we would all be Sons of Perdition by now...

But there's more to faith then just that. That's just one example.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

I like that example. It does give me greater insight into some of the reasons that faith might be necessary. I think it is a reasonable explaination, but I still think that it is a more reasonable explaination that faith is a religious escape clause. I'm open to changing that viewpoint as more evidence comes in, but at the moment it is my best guess.

[rural]

I hate when people use the Wager (whether knowing of it or not) as a reason for believing. It's such a shallow reason for adhering to a lifestyle or set of beliefs.

[ElementalMist]

Hey Digi-kun,

I like the link on Pascal's Wager. I have actually never read that before.

Rural-

True, using the wager is a shallow reason for believing something, yet it is still interesting to look at.

[Vanhin]

I like that example. It does give me greater insight into some of the reasons that faith might be necessary. I think it is a reasonable explaination, but I still think that it is a more reasonable explaination that faith is a religious escape clause. I'm open to changing that viewpoint as more evidence comes in, but at the moment it is my best guess.

Well there certainly is a enough evidence to support that faith is used as a religious escape claus by some, I won't deny that. But there are many who are witnesses to the power of faith and the power of God; enough that any just court of law would not be able to down right disregard the testimonies.

I'm one of those. I am a witness to God's hand in my life. I have learned that He does answer our prayers, 100%. If He hasn't already, He will answer your humble prayers as well. Sometimes the answer is no, sometimes it's yes. At other times the answer seems silent, and we think we're not answered, only later to find out that He answered it in his own way and in his own time. Because life is partly a time for us to learn through our own experience, God often allows us to struggle through the answer before he confirms it. That way we really learn it. Be thankful for those times. They are the times that really stretch us and bring us closer to Him.

Sometimes our pride is a great stumbling block to receiving answers to prayers. No wonder the Lord taught that we must humble ourselves, like little children. Those are the ones who find that narrow way that we've spoken about.

And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things. And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God. (3 Nephi 11:37-38)

Being humble means that we are willing to accept the answer, even if it's not the one we wanted. And that can be a challenge, believe me I know. Anyway, just some some more things to think about along your journey, brother.

Sincerely,

Vanhin

[rameumptom]

I agree with VanHin. It is easy to explain away many so-called prophets, who are the only witness of their spiritual experience. But how does one explain the 3 and 8 Witnesses? How does one explain the Mormon Pentecost at the Kirtland Temple dedication, where hundreds experienced spiritual events (speaking in tongues, angels in the rooms and on the roof, etc)? How does one explain Joseph having revelations with others also witnessing them, such as with Oliver Cowdery: John the Baptist, Peter, James and John, Jesus Christ, Moses, Elijah, Elias; or with Sidney Rigdon: Christ, and the 3 kingdoms of heaven?

[lilered]

Actually what I'm saying is quite a bit different. I am suggesting that people use logic, reasoning, and observable repeatable evidence to determine for themselves what is true. Other people appear to be supporting allowing your feelings and preference to dictate to you what is true and what is not.

The problem I see with your suggestion is that not all people have the same I.Q. and life expierence. Therefore if the filters are logic, reason, and observed repeatable expierence, then there is no reason for faith. The human would be a sum total of their expierence based on their intellect, environment and comprehension skills.

Love woiuld be lust without feelings. Friendships would not exist. There would be no need of hope.

[lostnfound]

I would consider it evidence if I could honestly and humbly ask God a question and get a correct answer 100% of the time. But it doesn't work that way, you have to have faith when God doesn't answer. I don't see how faith is anything other than a convenient escape clause for religion to get away with not having emperical evidence.

I should open a faith based fast food joint. 10% of the time I'll give them food and the rest of the time I'll give them empty wrappers and claim that they didn't have enough faith that they would get their food. I would save a fortune in expenses.

Yes that was a silly example and no I am not mocking you. I'm simply trying to give a more concrete example as to what I mean when I say that I don't see the point of faith.

Probably the experiment cited most often by advocates of prayer is the one performed by Byrd, a cardiologist at San Francisco General Medical Center. According to his report, he studied 393 patients between August 1982 and May 1983. He divided the group into 192 patients who were prayed for, and 201 who were not prayed for. [7] He reported that, among other things, the people who were prayed for were five times less likely to develop pulmonary edema. None required endotracheal intubation, and fewer patients died.

okay here is one example for you Digital that prayer works..but for me..prayer/faith worked to bring two people I love back from the dead and all the docters looked on with amazement when they had already said they are gone. Prayer/Faith is not determined by what we percieve are the correct answers. Sometimes God does not answer. I have been in that situation. I about gave up on faith altogether too until God showed me that this was not about me and he is much bigger then you can ever imagine and once I humbled myself to that point then he answered my prayers. Read the book of Job for a great example of this.

[Guest tomk]

What I take away from that is to have faith because the scriptures that you are supposed to have faith in tell you that you will be rewarded for it. To me that borderlines on circular logic, but vaguely reminds me of Pascal's Wager which I find very interesting. I recomend following the link if you are not familiar with it, it's an interesting read.

It's not "circular logic."

The scriptures come from God.

[DigitalShadow]

It's not "circular logic."

The scriptures come from God.

That is an assumption. Other men tell you that the scriptures come from God, you had enough faith in the scriptures that your feelings confirmed that information.

If you don't already believe the scriptures are from God, yes it is circular logic.

[DigitalShadow]

The problem I see with your suggestion is that not all people have the same I.Q. and life expierence. Therefore if the filters are logic, reason, and observed repeatable expierence, then there is no reason for faith. The human would be a sum total of their expierence based on their intellect, environment and comprehension skills.

Love woiuld be lust without feelings. Friendships would not exist. There would be no need of hope.

If you read some of my other posts in this thread you will see that I advocate feelings as a valid source of input, but tempered by logic and reasoning. Without the influence of logic and reason we are no better than an animal reacting only with instinct and feelings.

I really dislike the persistant argument that if you don't have faith, the world is a cold and lifeless place. My philosophy is simply that a belief based solely on feelings is not a very reliable one. I'm not advocating that we all become emotionless robots like so many people seem to think I am saying, I simply think that a solid belief should include some form of emperical evidence, otherwise it is just an opinion.

[DigitalShadow]

Probably the experiment cited most often by advocates of prayer is the one performed by Byrd, a cardiologist at San Francisco General Medical Center. According to his report, he studied 393 patients between August 1982 and May 1983. He divided the group into 192 patients who were prayed for, and 201 who were not prayed for. [7] He reported that, among other things, the people who were prayed for were five times less likely to develop pulmonary edema. None required endotracheal intubation, and fewer patients died.

okay here is one example for you Digital that prayer works..but for me..prayer/faith worked to bring two people I love back from the dead and all the docters looked on with amazement when they had already said they are gone. Prayer/Faith is not determined by what we percieve are the correct answers. Sometimes God does not answer. I have been in that situation. I about gave up on faith altogether too until God showed me that this was not about me and he is much bigger then you can ever imagine and once I humbled myself to that point then he answered my prayers. Read the book of Job for a great example of this.

Please cite your sources, I would be curious to see how scientificly the study was conducted. For every study affirming that prayer does something, I guarantee there are plenty that show that prayer had no effect. For every person that was miraculously "brought back from the dead" to the amazement of doctors, there are thousands of people who simply died and the prayer had no effect for. Were their prayers somehow not as good as the ones that "worked"? How does God pick which prayers to answer and which to simply ignore? I find it far more likely that if God exists he is not intervening and that people look at the times their prayers were answered as confirmation and ignore the times their prayers weren't answered as "it was meant to be" or some such.

[DigitalShadow]

I agree with VanHin. It is easy to explain away many so-called prophets, who are the only witness of their spiritual experience. But how does one explain the 3 and 8 Witnesses? How does one explain the Mormon Pentecost at the Kirtland Temple dedication, where hundreds experienced spiritual events (speaking in tongues, angels in the rooms and on the roof, etc)? How does one explain Joseph having revelations with others also witnessing them, such as with Oliver Cowdery: John the Baptist, Peter, James and John, Jesus Christ, Moses, Elijah, Elias; or with Sidney Rigdon: Christ, and the 3 kingdoms of heaven?

How would you explain it if I said there was a different person claiming to be a prophet who had 3 and 8 Witnesses as well? If you really think about that question you'll see how easy it is to dismiss extrodinary claims when you don't already believe them.

[Guest tomk]

And the scriptures come from God because they say so... do you at least see my point?

DS:

Good morning. How are you?

The scriptures do say so. Also, He says so. Why wouldn't God speak about Himself in His words to us? He wants us to get to know Him better. Why wouldn't He say they are from Him?

I would say the progression is:

1) Willing to know if God exists. FAITH

2) You do what He says we must do to know if He exists. OBEDIENCE

3) God witnesses to you that He exists. PROOF

4) You continue to obey his commandments.

5) Over time, you come to know God's attributes as He, Himself, infuses you with them.

6) Eventually you become like Him.

Given how stubbornly you cling to your "being unconvinced" -- perhaps you will spend the rest of your life wondering if God exists. In fact, I could easily see that being the case, if you continue as you are. Your having to be "compelled" is a form of pride.

God is not going to change how things work just for you. You need to be the one to bend to His will. In this case, the scientific method will prove unhelpful. You might consider trying a different method for a while.

Signs follow faith, they do not precede them. Signs given because we are "demanding proof before we will believe" tend to condemn us. Signs to not breed more faith. They do the opposite. They serve to harden our hearts.

We've given you ample testimony that He lives. We've invited you to take the steps necessary to find out for yourself. All that remains is for you to take those steps. You are never going to get that witness through our words alone. Not because I say so, but because that is the way God works. His witness comes through the Holy Ghost. Through your feelings.

Feelings of peace, love and assurance. Such that you will have a hard time putting the experience into words (which is what most of us suffer from as we try to help you understand, I might add! God's witness to our souls is unspeakable)

[Guest tomk]

How would you explain it if I said there was a different person claiming to be a prophet who had 3 and 8 Witnesses as well? If you really think about that question you'll see how easy it is to dismiss extrodinary claims when you don't already believe them.

The Book of Mormon counters practically any negative, doubting viewpoint you can come up with:

1 Ne. 19: 7

7 For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at naught and trample under their feet. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words—they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

It "feels good" to the carnal man to doubt and "prove God wrong". It can be very satisfying, intellectually. It makes them feel "prudent, wise and smart." It's heady stuff.

Unfortunately, by having a doubting heart, we close ourselves off from that which God would give us.

2 Ne. 9: 42

42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

cast these things away (your insistence on the scientific method, your insistence on proof, your pride in your logic and learning)

consider yourself a fool before God (you acknowledge that He is superior to you in every way, mentally, logically, physically, spiritually -- in every way)

and come down in the depths of humility (become willing to listen to your feelings, and become willing to receive an answer from Him through your feelings)

if you do not do these things

"He will not open unto you" -- He will not give you the "proof" you seek.

if you do these things

"He will open unto you" -- He will give you the "proof" you seek.

[DigitalShadow]

DS:

Good morning. How are you?

The scriptures do say so. Also, He says so. Why wouldn't God speak about Himself in His words to us? He wants us to get to know Him better. Why wouldn't He say they are from Him?

I would say the progression is:

1) Willing to know if God exists. FAITH

2) You do what He says we must do to know if He exists. OBEDIENCE

3) God witnesses to you that He exists. PROOF

4) You continue to obey his commandments.

5) Over time, you come to know God's attributes as He, Himself, infuses you with them.

6) Eventually you become like Him.

Given how stubbornly you cling to your "being unconvinced" -- perhaps you will spend the rest of your life wondering if God exists. In fact, I could easily see that being the case, if you continue as you are. Your having to be "compelled" is a form of pride.

God is not going to change how things work just for you. You need to be the one to bend to His will. In this case, the scientific method will prove unhelpful. You might consider trying a different method for a while.

Signs follow faith, they do not precede them. Signs given because we are "demanding proof before we will believe" tend to condemn us. Signs to not breed more faith. They do the opposite. They serve to harden our hearts.

We've given you ample testimony that He lives. We've invited you to take the steps necessary to find out for yourself. All that remains is for you to take those steps. You are never going to get that witness through our words alone. Not because I say so, but because that is the way God works. His witness comes through the Holy Ghost. Through your feelings.

Feelings of peace, love and assurance. Such that you will have a hard time putting the experience into words (which is what most of us suffer from as we try to help you understand, I might add! God's witness to our souls is unspeakable)

I'm not proposing He "change how things work just for me." I'm stating that the "way things work" looks suspiciously like He doesn't exist and religions make rules compensating for that.

You say that I am stubbornly clinging to being unconvinced but I could just as easily say that you are stubbornly clinging to being convinced. I've told you before, I came here to have honest and open discussions about religion, not to simply be convinced that your brand of Truth is the right one.

[DigitalShadow]

The Book of Mormon counters practically any negative, doubting viewpoint you can come up with:

1 Ne. 19: 7

7 For the things which some men esteem to be of great worth, both to the body and soul, others set at naught and trample under their feet. Yea, even the very God of Israel do men trample under their feet; I say, trample under their feet but I would speak in other words—they set him at naught, and hearken not to the voice of his counsels.

It "feels good" to the carnal man to doubt and "prove God wrong". It can be very satisfying, intellectually. It makes them feel "prudent, wise and smart." It's heady stuff.

Unfortunately, by having a doubting heart, we close ourselves off from that which God would give us.

2 Ne. 9: 42

42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

cast these things away (your insistence on the scientific method, your insistence on proof, your pride in your logic and learning)

consider yourself a fool before God (you acknowledge that He is superior to you in every way, mentally, logically, physically, spiritually -- in every way)

and come down in the depths of humility (become willing to listen to your feelings, and become willing to receive an answer from Him through your feelings)

if you do not do these things

"He will not open unto you" -- He will not give you the "proof" you seek.

You entirely missed my point. He was basically saying that I must explain the 8 witnesses if I reject the Book of Mormon as truth and I was replying by asking how he would explain 8 witnesses to a prophet with conflicting teachings. My point being that if I wanted, I could probably gather 8 friends together to claim they saw something, that doesn't make it true or even necessitate other people either having to prove that it is not true or believe it.

[Guest tomk]

I'm not proposing He "change how things work just for me." I'm stating that the "way things work" looks suspiciously like He doesn't exist and religions make rules compensating for that.

You say that I am stubbornly clinging to being unconvinced but I could just as easily say that you are stubbornly clinging to being convinced. I've told you before, I came here to have honest and open discussions about religion, not to simply be convinced that your brand of Truth is the right one.

I am sorry I have misunderstood your desires. I thought you were trying to find out what we believe and why we believe so strongly in what we do.

All I know is my own religion, my own beliefs. I can speak to what I know and how I know it. That is about all I can do.

Since we believe our Church is the only true Church -- how would you expect us to respond and behave?

[Guest tomk]

You entirely missed my point. He was basically saying that I must explain the 8 witnesses if I reject the Book of Mormon as truth and I was replying by asking how he would explain 8 witnesses to a prophet with conflicting teachings. My point being that if I wanted, I could probably gather 8 friends together to claim they saw something, that doesn't make it true or even necessitate other people either having to prove that it is not true or believe it.

My anxiety is for your soul, not analytical debate.

[DigitalShadow]

I am sorry I have misunderstood your desires. I thought you were trying to find out what we believe and why we believe so strongly in what we do.

All I know is my own religion, my own beliefs. I can speak to what I know and how I know it. That is about all I can do.

Since we believe our Church is the only true Church -- how would you expect us to respond and behave?

I believe that I have found out what it is you believe and why you believe so strongly. The question now is whether I will accept that for my own beliefs as well. I know this is mostly a personal question, but the main purpose of this thread is to explore religion from an objective perspective and to discuss the reliability of personal subjective experiences, why they conflict so much from person to person, and why so many people describe them as undeniable experience when obviously some if not many are wrong since their experiences conflict.

I encourage debate, citing evidence, and even philosophical reasoning on this thread. What I somewhat discourage is dogmatic reasoning of "it is this way because the scriptures say so!" because while I find it fascinating, to someone who does not accept the scriptures as the word of God, it means the same as pointing to a book that is right because it says it is right.

[Vanhin]

Since we believe our Church is the only true Church -- how would you expect us to respond and behave?

I think TomK asked a good question here. I would suggest the following: Faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, godliness, charity, humility, and diligence (D&C 4:6).

It's easy for us to be like the less-effective example out of the old Missionary Guide, where you go to the eye doctor and tell him that you are having trouble seeing, and the first thing he does is give you his glasses and says "try these, they work for me". It's better to help others learn for themselves these things. We can help, since we have learned many things already, but everyone must ultimately learn the truth themselves, by little steps of faith.

I think DigitalShadow is looking to have a reasonable conversation about this topic. He is interested in what we believe, and how we view faith and the spiritual experience, and he's also interested in the larger topic surrounding the claims of different religious traditions and their subjective experience. I have really enjoyed this thread, and have even learned things myself while pondering these things.

I think we should reason with him, and try to understand where he is coming from. Even the Lord is not above that:

And now come, saith the Lord, by the Spirit, unto the elders of his church, and let us reason together, that ye may understand; Let us reason even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face. Now, when a man reasoneth he is understood of man, because he reasoneth as a man; even so will I, the Lord, reason with you that you may understand. (D&C 50:10-12)

Kind Regards,

Vanhin

[lostnfound]

Please cite your sources, I would be curious to see how scientificly the study was conducted. For every study affirming that prayer does something, I guarantee there are plenty that show that prayer had no effect. For every person that was miraculously "brought back from the dead" to the amazement of doctors, there are thousands of people who simply died and the prayer had no effect for. Were their prayers somehow not as good as the ones that "worked"? How does God pick which prayers to answer and which to simply ignore? I find it far more likely that if God exists he is not intervening and that people look at the times their prayers were answered as confirmation and ignore the times their prayers weren't answered as "it was meant to be" or some such.

Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population Page 1

You can look into the study if you wish.

As far as God not answering a prayer. You are correct that sometimes it is God's will to let people die. My dad was killed very young. Just because we pray for something does not mean that God will answer it the way we would like. Sometimes Digital I am very thankful that God did not answer my prayers exactly how I wanted it to happen because I can't see my whole life and see what He sees. Sometimes it has been years later that I saw what God was doing in a situation. But I was only giving you...1. Science evidence that prayer works and 2. A personal account where I saw God work..a think no human can explain...3. I work in the medical field..there is no greater place to this carried out then here.

[lostnfound]

How would you explain it if I said there was a different person claiming to be a prophet who had 3 and 8 Witnesses as well? If you really think about that question you'll see how easy it is to dismiss extrodinary claims when you don't already believe them.

Which there have been..many of them.

[lostnfound]

One more question for you digital that I personally am curious about is. You seem to be a very bight guy. You seem to read alot and ask lots of questions. And I would bet that this is not the first forum that you have asked these kind of questions to right? Which is a good thing in my opinion..but have you ever just done a in depth study on who Jesus is? What did he say about himself? What did others say about him? In the bible and not in the bible..and how he compares to the world's reglions of what they believe..how he is different or the same...It would interesting for you to do that..and I think if you did it with an open mind to the possiblity but using logic and reason to support it you will have all your answers met.

[DigitalShadow]

Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population Page 1

You can look into the study if you wish.

As far as God not answering a prayer. You are correct that sometimes it is God's will to let people die. My dad was killed very young. Just because we pray for something does not mean that God will answer it the way we would like. Sometimes Digital I am very thankful that God did not answer my prayers exactly how I wanted it to happen because I can't see my whole life and see what He sees. Sometimes it has been years later that I saw what God was doing in a situation. But I was only giving you...1. Science evidence that prayer works and 2. A personal account where I saw God work..a think no human can explain...3. I work in the medical field..there is no greater place to this carried out then here.

I browsed the study, thanks for the link, I do appreciate it. My point however is that if a principle is true, studies tend to agree. I have seen multiple studies to the effect that prayer made no difference, I have now seen one study that seems to point to prayer being effective. While I will grant you that it is evidence, I have still seen more evidence (both personal and scientific) that prayer has no effect.

You say that no human can explain a personal account of seeing God work. Well I'm a human and I'll give it a shot. Your eyes sometimes see what your mind wants you to see, your brain fills in the gaps to make sense of what you don't understand and finally where religion is concerned, people find a way to make God look good and events purposeful sometimes because it supports their view of the world. There, explained. It may not be the correct explaination but it is certainly very plausible. To say certain events are unexplainable is quite misleading.

Let's look at how I've seen religious people react to certain situations:

A person almost gets in a car accident - I have been blessed and God was looking out for me

A person gets in a minor car accident - Thank God I don't have any serious injuries, God was looking out for me.

A person gets in a major car accident and lives - It's a miracle I'm still alive, God was looking out for me.

A person gets in a major car accident and dies - [friends and family] It was their time to go, and they're in a better place now.

All of those situations happen whether God exists or doesn't. Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Sometimes good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people, but simply looking at those specific examples and saying "ha! I told you so!" is rediculous unless you look at all the opposite examples and explain why they are equally likely.

[lostnfound]

I browsed the study, thanks for the link, I do appreciate it. My point however is that if a principle is true, studies tend to agree. I have seen multiple studies to the effect that prayer made no difference, I have now seen one study that seems to point to prayer being effective. While I will grant you that it is evidence, I have still seen more evidence (both personal and scientific) that prayer has no effect.

You say that no human can explain a personal account of seeing God work. Well I'm a human and I'll give it a shot. Your eyes sometimes see what your mind wants you to see, your brain fills in the gaps to make sense of what you don't understand and finally where religion is concerned, people find a way to make God look good and events purposeful sometimes because it supports their view of the world. There, explained. It may not be the correct explaination but it is certainly very plausible. To say certain events are unexplainable is quite misleading.

Let's look at how I've seen religious people react to certain situations:

A person almost gets in a car accident - I have been blessed and God was looking out for me

A person gets in a minor car accident - Thank God I don't have any serious injuries, God was looking out for me.

A person gets in a major car accident and lives - It's a miracle I'm still alive, God was looking out for me.

A person gets in a major car accident and dies - [friends and family] It was their time to go, and they're in a better place now.

All of those situations happen whether God exists or doesn't. Bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Sometimes good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people, but simply looking at those specific examples and saying "ha! I told you so!" is rediculous unless you look at all the opposite examples and explain why they are equally likely.

I agree with your reasoning and can see what your saying.

as far as no human being able to explain comment i posted..I meant..person was laying on the stretcher.no heart beat, no brain activity and clinicaly dead..no doctor in that room could account for the fact as to why he came to life..and nobody could explain it even one step further in that there was no brain damage. 4 min of no heat beat and that equalls brain damage. It is beyond reason or intellect or science. It was God.

I think if you took one isolated arguement a christian gives you for God and you might be able to come up with a reasonable rebuttel but when you lay all the evidence on the table it is hard to ignore.This where I put my faith in. My faith does not contridict my logic.

Now that is only part of the equation Digital..then it comes down to which path right? If you come to the conclusion there is a God then at some point you've got to figure out which path to God right? And this is where I purposed to you a analytical study on Jesus and the bible.