Vanhin

No one would blame you if you were outwardly angry and a little irrational. However, even though it is painful, I say stick with not letting anger get the best of you, like you have thus far. Regardless of what happens, maintaining your cool will allow you to stay clear headed and rational throughout the process. That doesn't mean you don't cry and that you are not hurt. It simply means you have something he didn't have... self control. Regards, Vanhin

miyone, I like everyone's advice. I just wanted to add that it is important that you try to avoid letting him elaborate on his sins to you before he has confessed to the bishop, so that he doesn't think that that counts as a "confession". Sometimes people rationalize that disclosing their sins to their friends counts as a confession for serious transgressions, and they put off actually going to the bishop. If he does confess to you, then make sure you explain to him that he still needs to see the bishop. :) Regards, Vanhin

I like both PC's and Blackmarch's suggestions. Consider the following: Alma and his people were forbidden from praying, or they would be put to death, yet they prayed in their hearts. And Alma and his people did not raise their voices to the Lord their God, but did pour out their hearts to him; and he did know the thoughts of their hearts. (Alma 24:12) What PC said about saying "In Your holy name, amen." sounds good too. John the baptist said, "in the name of Messiah", when he conferred the priesthood on Joseph and Oliver, which is similar. Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah, I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness. (JS-H 1:69) So, I might say something like "In your holy name, amen." but in my heart I am thinking in the name of "Jesus Christ". Regards, Vanhin

I also take issue with this assertion for another reason. I challenge you to find anything in the Book of Mormon that is "clearly designed to sour it's readers to Christianity". Nothing could be further from the truth as far as the Book of Mormon is concerned. I would argue that there is not another book in all the world that promotes Christianity to Jewish, Christian, or Gentile readers, better than the Book of Mormon does. 2 Nephi chapter 25 is just a sample of what I am talking about, if you want to check it out. Even your references (1 Ne. 13-14) are promoting membership in the "church of the Lamb of God", above everything else. To latter-day saints, as with other Christians, the Lamb of God is Jesus Christ. Regards, Vanhin

Although many have read 1 Nephi 13-14 to mean the RCC alone, I think from the text it can be established that it is not the case. Take the following excerpt from the passages. And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth. (1 Ne. 14:10) Simply put, the church of the devil is what everyone belongs to who do not belong to the church of the Lamb of God. So, it is not a matter of "knocking out the champ" as you have asserted from a mistaken understanding of our scriptures. If one were to assume that the RCC is the "mother of harlots", and that the LDS Church is the church of the Lamb of God, where does that leave the other religions in the world? It doesn't make sense to argue that Hinduism, for instance, is a "harlot" of the RCC. The church of the devil is not a specific organization. What Nephi is talking about is no more or less than the "whore that sitteth upon many waters" that John describes in Revelation 17 (see also 1 Ne. 14:18-30). Just as a brief side note- There are members of the LDS Church who belong the to church of the devil, because they do not keep their covenants, and love mammon (for instance) more than God; and there are members of other religions, who will be considered members of the Church of the Lamb of God in the end. Concerning the urgency of our missionary efforts, the following is written in our Doctrine and Covenants: For there are many yet on the earth among all sects, parties, and denominations, who are blinded by the subtle craftiness of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, and who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it— Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven— These should then be attended to with great earnestness. (D&C 123:12-14) Little children who have not reached the age of accountability, and others who are not accountable for their actions, because of mental illness, are also considered members of the church of the Lamb of God, regardless of their current religion or their parents religion, because they are "redeemed from foundation of the world through [the] Only Begotten" (see D&C 29:46, and Moroni 8:12) Regards, Vanhin

And just for trivia... By way of policy, the Church discourages surgical sterilization (including vasectomy), and it should only be considered for serious health reasons, or if a person is mentally incompetent, and unaccountable for their actions. Regards, Vanhin

He's coming back. He has been having some health issues lately. Vanhin

Welcome aboard!

Then there is "mild drinks": Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain. (Doctrine and Covenants 89) Beer! Vanhin

I wish he would come back and say something. Personally, I think he can handle himself better than he thinks he can, because he's pretty smart about this stuff. You should have seen him on CF when he making a case for an unorthodox Jewish understanding of the Creation, and all the "experts' came out of the woodworks in opposition. That entire thread has been deleted or I would link to it. I just did a search, but here's the stub. The Beginning of Creation (in Ancient Hebrew) - Christian Forums Regards, Vanhin

Clearly we were all mistaken. If that is the case, I think Finrock is right, and we should get off your case. Sincerely, Vanhin

I figured you would get what I was saying. It was a harsh way to point out that not all Jews were alike. Like I said, it was a little over the top. Alright. Well, it initially came off that way to him, and he brought it to our attention, and to some of us who watch over this forum it did seem that you were trying to discredit Kabbalah, or point out that he wasn't even Jewish. Even in some of your communications with me privately I got that impression from you. I'm glad you are not his enemy after all. Now that it's all cleared up, let's just go forward from here. I really don't think he minds questions and corrections. I think he is a little gun-shy because of the response his interest in the Book of Mormon has solicited from others from the start. Regards, Vanhin

Alright, Volgadon, that was a little too much on my part. Forgive me. I'm just saying give him a break. That's all. Besides, 1 Nephi 16 maybe the last of his commentary, since we haven't heard from him in a while. Hopefully he comes back when he can and continues. In the meantime, I for one am grateful that he took the time to do all this, and I have found his commentary both interesting and useful. On the Book of Mormon names, I bet he would have even more insight now than in the beginning, because he has had a little more exposure to the time and setting of the BoM and the narrative. Regards, Vanhin

Now there is a stereotype. You are from Utah for sure.

Hey Blackmarch, my friend, welcome! Vanhin

What do you mean? You think that all Jews like to argue and debate; that there are no "sensitive" Jews - no individuals that differ from the stereotypes? I wonder if you think all Jews are "scheming merchants" and must have large hook-noses too. Besides, Maya is not a Jew, so you are baffled at a statement made by a Finnish/Norwegian Mormon about a person that she is friends with. He is tired of the arguing since he became involved with the troublesome Mormons. First with the anti-Mormons at Christianforums.com who immediately sprang into action when he started "validating" the Book of Mormon as an ancient Hebrew record, and then with skeptical members here who think he is trying to deceive them. Just give the guy a break, or you won't be posting here much longer. Regards, Vanhin

That's okay, the same is true about non-members raised almost entirely in Utah. They are surprisingly baffled at things they don't understand about Mormons. For example, people familiar with our faith and people, are often surprised to find out that not all American Mormons are Republicans - we actually have some who are Democrats and members of other political parties. I guess proximity alone does not make one an expert. So, don't feel bad. Regards, Vanhin

Exactly, which many good Home Teachers do not do that well... Vanhin

JS is not mistaken. The temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt, and the sons of Levi will be authorized to once again offer sacrifices unto the Lord. these are the words John the Baptist used when he conferred the priesthood of Aaron on Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. “Upon you my fellow servants, in the name of Messiah I confer the Priesthood of Aaron, which holds the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; and this shall never be taken again from the earth, until the sons of Levi do offer again an offering unto the Lord in righteousness.” (D&C 13.) I don't think many of us will participate at all, unless we are Levites. Regards, Vanhin

It's a setup. Be ready for Joseph Smith, polyandry, and 14 year old brides... again.

I would do it. I see no problems with plurality of wives if God commands it. My initial struggle would be with increasing my income... Regards, Vanhin

I understand what he means. If the standard works are binding doctrine on members of the Church, which they are, then we have to accept that some doctrines or practices are superseded by others, yet the old ones remain in the canon - like circumcision. The law of circumcision was done away in Christ. Mormon wrote his son Moroni about this: Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me. (Moroni 8:8) Now the Lord requires us to circumcise our hearts, so the principle exists, but the practice is done away. (Rom. 2:25-29) Regards, Vanhin

D&C 132 has not been superseded, only the doctrine of plural marriage, which is found in D&C 132 is superseded by OD1. Everything else in 132 is binding doctrine on members of the Church, and is mostly concerned with the New and Everlasting Covenant of marriage. This is in harmony with the rest of our scriptures that acknowledge that plural marriage can been authorized in mortality, by God, as he sees fit. Jacob in the Book of Mormon explains that monogamy is the rule, and polygamy is an exception that must be authorized. Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none; ... For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things. (Jacob 2:27,30) Regards, Vanhin

I think most problems with home teaching can be chalked up to undue emphasis on "numbers", by both leaders and home teachers. Despite the fact that our instruction manuals have cautioned us against it for as long as I can remember, almost every effort with either Missionary work or Home Teaching amounts to nothing short of quotas. I think if we look at it honestly, it is that and the pressure that comes with it that encourages "burn out" and lack of motivation. Not to say that individuals don't legitimately have a need to step up and be valiant in some cases, but that is my assessment. I'm normally the one in leadership meetings who gets turned off by the imposition of quotas in the guise of "goals", and I usually make that known. But then I drop it, since it falls on deaf ears, and just do the things that I know are effective when it comes to my home teaching efforts. I discuss our families with my companion, and we prayerfully seek the guidance of the Spirit as we minister to our families. We do what we can to meet their needs and report our results honestly. I try not to worry about anything else to tell you the truth. I love being a home teacher, and I love the way I feel when I am anxiously engaged in it for the right reasons. I feel exactly like I did when I was a missionary. To tell you the truth, I don't want any other calling. Give me ten families to home teach and nothing else, and I will be as happy as a lark. Well, I would love to be a young missionary again in Finland, so if God is granting wishes that is what I wish too. Elder Harold B. Lee taught, “Missionary work is but home teaching to those who are not now members of the Church, and home teaching is nothing more or less than missionary work to Church members.” (Improvement Era, Dec. 1964, p. 1078.) And for those who think that your authority to preach the gospel lasts only two years, if you are fortunate enough to have been able to serve a mission, I offer my favorite quote currently, by Elder Bednar - All of us who have received the holy priesthood bear the sacred obligation to bless the nations and families of the earth by proclaiming the gospel and inviting all to receive by proper authority the ordinances of salvation. Many of us have served as full-time missionaries, some of us presently are serving as full-time missionaries, and all of us now are serving and will continue to serve as lifelong missionaries. We are missionaries every day in our families, in our schools, in our places of employment, and in our communities. Regardless of our age, experience, or station in life, we are all missionaries. Proclaiming the gospel is not an activity in which we periodically and temporarily engage. And our labors as missionaries certainly are not confined to the short period of time devoted to full-time missionary service in our youth or in our mature years. Rather, the obligation to proclaim the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is inherent in the oath and covenant of the priesthood into which we enter. Missionary work essentially is a priesthood responsibility, and all of us who hold the priesthood are the Lord’s authorized servants on the earth and are missionaries at all times and in all places—and we always will be. Our very identity as holders of the priesthood and the seed of Abraham is in large measure defined by the responsibility to proclaim the gospel. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - Becoming a Missionary) We can fulfill our priesthood responsibilities by being good home teachers. I can't tell you how many wonderful people you can find for the missionaries to teach, even, through your own personal ministry as a home teacher. They are there, and we can help hunt and gather them unto Christ. You can teach too!! The new converts must be qualified for baptism by those who work under the direction of the Mission President, who holds the keys to convert baptisms, but we hold the priesthood and have the gift of the Holy Ghost, and "are the Lord’s authorized servants on the earth and are missionaries at all times and in all places—and we always will be." Long before our friends begin to seriously prepare for baptism, which is when the missionaries must ensure they are qualified for it, we are engaged in teaching the restored gospel of Jesus Christ by both word and deed; or we should be. This doesn't mean we must have formal lessons, but that we love, serve, teach, and invite our friends and neighbors to receive the ordinances and covenants of salvation, and to live them. In other words, we simply live the gospel. That's what home teaching is too. It is simply living the principles of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Regards, Vanhin

Like someone already pointed out, good thing Alma Jr. did hold back. He used his conversion story as an example in his ministry, which included his past transgressions. Sharing our uplifting experiences sometimes includes revealing that we have made mistakes. There is a way to tell the relevant parts without including any details about past sins or transgressions. For example the following true story about the effectiveness of good home teachers will demonstrate what I mean. When I was a teenager, I strayed away from the Church and from those things that I knew to be right. I found myself in an awful situation, that I could not overcome on my own. The missionaries and our home teacher played a critical part in helping overcome my challenges. I say home teacher, because once I started trying to come back, I was paired up with him, and so, not only was he our home teacher, I was his companion. We went out together faithfully, and he showed me how to care for the families we had stewardship over. In part because of his wisdom and diligence, I was able to put certain weaknesses behind me for good, and repent of my sins. I served an honorable mission after that, and will be forever grateful for that faithful servant of the Lord. Regards, Vanhin