Vanhin

I totally understand, and I think I would be upset too if my wife decided to join a different religion without discussing it with me before making the decision. That said, I think the most prudent way to approach this is to show her by your patients and love why it would have been okay for her to approach you about this in the first place. :) You know what I mean? Sincerely, Vanhin

his wife...

Thanks for checking it out. Feel free to post any comments or questions you have about the perspective that thekabalist has provided. Vanhin

This was interesting to me that the name of the apostle who should write these things would be named John and that his name means "the L-rd is merciful". We know of course, that this is all in reference to the book of Revelations in the New Testament. So, basically Nephi is saying, for the rest of what will happen consult the writings of John. Regards, Vanhin

One more thing. Your commentary is great keep it coming! In Mormonism we value all canonized scripture as authoritative and binding, and we value an authorized living prophet above the scriptures. Through a living prophet, God can reveal new and wonderful things concerning the will of the Lord and his kingdom on earth. The message in the Book of Mormon makes in plainly clear that it came forth to convince the remnant of the seed of Lehi, the Jews, all of Israel, and the Gentiles that Jesus is the Christ, and that the records of the new testament and the old testament are authoritative from God, and also other books that will come forth. That seems to be the plain point that Nephi is trying to make. It is a prophecy about the restoration of the gospel and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. Nephi also points out that the record of the Jews originally contained the plain and precious points of doctrine, like the Book of Mormon does. I understand your hesitancy in addressing that topic, I just wanted to point that out from our perspective. I am reminded of the following passages from Jeremiah. 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jeremiah 31:31-34) Regards, Vanhin

Oh I loved this. This was very revealing, and represents an important thing to bear in mind. So, when God says, "...Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.", it is true that there could be other interpretations to God creating us in "his image and likeness", but they shouldn't take away from the plain meaning. According to LDS doctrine, those verses plainly teach that we look like God, we are in his image - the same species. This is also true at many other levels in scripture. The plain meaning should matter to us. Thank you, Vanhin

Though I think you are right, that by and large the symbolims of dark and white in the Book of Mormon concern purity, when speaking of the descendants of Nephi and Laman. However, it is important to note that the Book of Mormon seems to be pretty unequivical that there was a difference in the color of their skin. That the descendants of Laman and Lemuel were marked with a skin of darkness, as opposed to the Nephites who appear to have been white in comparison. Nephi is also equating the "Europeans" in his vision to be of the same complexion as his people, who would have been mostly of the tribe of Ephraim and Manasseh. There was also a signifcant representation of Judah (and Benjamin) through the Mulekites as well (which you have not read yet). I have included a few references from later in the Book of Mormon to demonstrate what I mean. 5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them. • • • 8 O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God. 9 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness; but ye shall remember your own filthiness, and remember that their filthiness came because of their fathers. (Jacob 3:5,8-9) 6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men. (Alma 3:6) 21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. (2 Ne. 5:21) 15 And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;(3 Ne. 2:15) Those are just some samples. It is clear that there is an actual skin color involved, for what it's worth. I just don't want you to be too dismayed when we get to those verses. Regards, Vanhin

One of our modern prophets, Gordon B. Hinkley, while still a counselor in the First Presidency made the following remark. In my private commemoration of this event, I have read and reread one important and prophetic verse from the Book of Mormon, and also a very long biography of Christopher Columbus. That verse from Nephi’s vision states: “And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.” (1 Ne. 13:12.) We interpret that to refer to Columbus. It is interesting to note that the Spirit of God wrought upon him. After reading that long biography, a Pulitzer winner of forty years ago, titled Admiral of the Ocean Sea—I have no doubt that Christopher Columbus was a man of faith, as well as a man of indomitable determination. I recognize that in this anniversary year a host of critics have spoken out against him. I do not dispute that there were others who came to this Western Hemisphere before him. But it was he who in faith lighted a lamp to look for a new way to China and who in the process discovered America. His was an awesome undertaking—to sail west across the unknown seas farther than any before him of his generation. He it was who, in spite of the terror of the unknown and the complaints and near mutiny of his crew, sailed on with frequent prayers to the Almighty for guidance. In his reports to the sovereigns of Spain, Columbus repeatedly asserted that his voyage was for the glory of God and the spread of the Christian faith. Properly do we honor him for his unyielding strength in the face of uncertainty and danger. We look at Columbus' discovery and the subsequent colonization of America by the Europeans as fulfillment of this prophecy. They found a people already here, which we claim include a remnant of the seed Lehi. Regards, Vanhin

I was wondering why I couldn't use the "Thanks" button on your other posts any more... I commend you for caring enough to look into this, to the extent of even participating in worship services and asking questions. Believe me there are plenty of nutty religions out there. Latter-day saints are clearly a peculiar people with peculiar beliefs and practices, but all in all, we are known for good virtues, and family values, generally speaking that is. A little known secret, outside of Mormonism, is the enormous value we place on personal agency. We even teach that God honors our agency and allows people to freely choose to follow him or not. We have a lay ministry, and as such, regular members of local congregations are called to fill positions of leadership, and to teach Sunday school. So, yes, your wife (and by extension you) will be encouraged to make changes in your life for the better, and yes, much is required of members of this Church. These are good things that I think you will appreciate, and they will help your wife stretch and grow. Did you know, that from an early age, latter-day saint children start gaining experience in public speaking? In our primary (children's organization), they are given opportunities to teach the other children through short "talks", and eventually will even have a chance in their teenage years to give a talk in our sacrament meetings (our main church service). Because of that experience, I am more at ease when I have to stand up in front of others in my career, for example, and speak publicly. The Church has been a source of little practical benefits like that, that I am so grateful for. You might even notice in the services that you attend, that regular soldiers, with no theology degree, are surprisingly capable of sharing their thoughts and beliefs, even with strangers. Anyway, just trying to think of a few things that might help you know about us more. Regards, Vanhin

Hey Volgadon, Not to put too fine a point on it, but what you were asked to do before was to follow the rules of a specific sub-forum, which did not allow debate. You are welcome to respectfully challenge, and even debate, topics on other forums. This being one of them. Whether anyone specifically wants to engage with you or not is up to them. Regards, Vanhin

One of the themes you will encounter throughout the Book of Mormon, is the promises of the Lord concerning the inhabitants of the Americas. In the narrative you are reading now, they have not yet made it to America, but the prophecies concerning the seed of Lehi are fulfilled in America. Throughout the BoM we learn that those who possess the land will be blessed greatly if they are righteous and worship God, but will be cursed with destruction if they become wicked. Even before the time of the Nephites, the Jaredites were aware of this promise. And thus the Lord did pour out his blessings upon this land, which was choice above all other lands; and he commanded that whoso should possess the land should possess it unto the Lord, or they should be destroyed when they were ripened in iniquity; for upon such, saith the Lord: I will pour out the fulness of my wrath. (Ether 9:20) Both the Jaredites and the Nephites ultimately saw the destruction of their civilizations because of their wickedness. Because they would not follow the word of God. And in each case, the destruction was by sword. Nephi, is not only trying to shepherd his own people into righteousness, that they would not be destroyed, but he is also shepherding the future readers of his words... us, that we should be aware, and follow the word of God, or we will be destroyed by the sword. The United States has enjoyed many blessings and prosperity from the Lord in this land, because the people have worshiped righteously the God of this land, who is Jehovah. However, our destruction will surely come if we forsake him and his word, like other civilizations before us. Regards, Vanhin

This I thought was interesting too. I have spoken with other Jews, and the concept of salvation from sins through the Messiah, is something that they do indeed frown upon. Often we are told that the Jewish Messiah would save Israel politically only and not from sins. Concerning salvation and Israel, it is important to note that salvation in the highest most complete sense, from an LDS perspective, is only available to Israel. Exaltation, in the Celestial Kingdom of God, is only available to faithful members of the house of Israel today. Latter-day saints believe that through authorized baptism, people who are not Israelites by birth, are adopted into the house of Israel, and are assigned to one of the tribes as if they were born of that lineage. The Messiah did suffer the sins for the whole world, and all the pains and sorrows too, but for those who will not repent and be baptized, and be cleansed of their sins through the blood of the Lamb, they must suffer as he did for their sins, and then enter a lesser kingdom of glory. Salvation from sins, is available to all who will join the house of Israel and be true and faithful to their covenants. There is kind of a word play (hehe I said word play) in the name of the Church that corresponds to this Idea. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Christ is the Holy One of Israel even today. The Redeemer of Israel. Regards, Vanhin

Finally!!! Now I can't keep up with you. :) You commentary, as always, has been quite fascinating. I especially like your commentary on the mountains. Latter-day saints equate mountains with temple worship, and temples - which are places where profound things are learned concerning the Lord and his ways, and God is worshiped like in no other place. In our temples, we feel we can come into the presence of God. One of my favorite scriptures from the Old Testament makes this connection, and we believe it is prophecy concerning the restoration of the gospel and of temple worship in the last days. And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. (Isaiah 2:2-3) We believe the building of our temples, especially the Salt-Lake Temple, is in partial fulfillment of this prophecy. The temple itself is built almost entirely out of granite, and having been erected in Utah, it is not only built on the "top of the mountains" but some believe the word Utah is a Ute indian word that means "top of the mountains" or "people of the mountains". Utah is indeed at the top of the mountains. As of this writing, we have 130 temples in operation throughout the world, 8 under construction, and 13 announced (see LDS (Mormon) Temples). We can say that "all nations" are flowing to the mountain of the Lord's house, and thereby learning "his ways" and walking "his paths", through the ordinances of the temple, for both the living and the dead. Regards, Vanhin

thekabalist, Much of what I was going to say about kings and the priesthood is actually found in this recent FairLDS article, so I'll just refer you to that. It's good reading and I think you will find it interesting. The Israelite Temple and the Early Christians Regards, Vanhin

He's a Rabbi. He can correct me if I am wrong, but I think he is supported by his community. Regards, Vanhin

Hey Scared, First off, I want to thank you for your service to our country (U.S.). There are so many sacrifices that our service men and women and their spouses have to make, and your sacrifice means so much to me. My father served two tours in Vietnam, and the appreciation for the sacrifice of Vietnam veterans was simply non-existent in his day. They suffered twice - abroad and at home. I have two brothers currently service active military. And so I offer you the sincerest thank you that I can possibly offer through this online forum. Secondly, I can totally understand your worry, and honestly, I would be worried too if I was in your shoes. It's totally understandable. That said, there are many things said out there about our church that are quite misleading. It is my opinion, as a life long member, that the principles of our Church offers freedom in the most truest sense, and is not heavy handed at all. Your family will be blessed tremendously for her acceptance of the gospel unless you (either of you) allow this decision of hers to become a wedge in your relationship. I have seen it both ways: I have seen a new convert in their zeal, pressure and push their spouse to convert, and I have seen the non-member spouse harass and oppose any activity that the member spouse wants to engage in at church. If she will respect your choices in life, and you hers, and you find ways to accommodate each others belief systems, there will be no wedge. Let her explain what she finds appealing in the religion, let her show you, because she will want to do that. That will help. I encourage you to learn as much as you can about the Church through reliable sources. Contact other Church members in the military serving with you, and ask them questions. Ask us questions, and check out Mormon.org - Home and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am curious. What do you find "heavy handed" about out religion? Welcome to lds.net! Regards, Vanhin

You should take it upon yourself not to partake of the sacrament, since it is you who will be held accountable for partaking of it unworthily. I would advise against eating or drinking damnation to your soul. Of course, your bishop should not knowingly allow you to partake of the sacrament unworthily either. (1 Cor. 11:29, 3 Ne. 18:29) In fact that is true for anyone who has unresolved sins that they have not properly repented of. You should prepare for sacrament like you would for your own baptism, by exercising faith in Christ by completely repenting of your sins. You will know when you have repented, because you have both confessed (to the bishop in this case) and forsaken your sins. By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them. (D&C 58:43) Sincerely, Vanhin

Hey Xoomer, I'm with Charlyc. Do everything you can to make it work. Repent and do the right things from here on out. You will have to come to terms with the consequences of your actions, and discussing all of this with your very own bishop is the right thing to do. There is no forgiveness without repentance, so make that a priority. Speaking as a regular sinner myself, I can assure you we are not without sin ourselves. It may not be the same exact sins for each of us as it is for you, but we all have fallen short of the glory of God a time or two. Here is the advice Alma gave his son - And now, my son, I desire that ye should let these things trouble you no more, and only let your sins trouble you, with that trouble which shall bring you down unto repentance. (Alma 42:29) Sincerely, Vanhin

Here's another name for you thekabalist. Sherrizah Thanks, Vanhin

I'd live in the redneck mansion... Vanhin

What HillCumorahCC and Hemidakota mentioned is my belief as well. When we have received all the ordinances of salvation, and been true to them and to our testimony of Christ, we will be sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. Then, only blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will keep us from our exaltation. Yes, we will suffer for all sins that we did not repent of, but after that we will enter our exaltation. Blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is committed when someone who has had their calling and election made sure sheds (or is willing to shed) innocent blood, or be willing to crucify the Lord again if they could, thereby rejecting Christ and His atonement. Basically sons of perdition reject knowingly salvation, after having received it. Such people cannot be saved, because they don't want it. Regards, Vanhin

This is good stuff thekabalist! To latter-day saints, faith in the Messiah and repentance are the first principles of the gospel and are prerequisite to baptism. Baptism is the first ordinance of the gospel, and it goes hand in hand with repentance, since baptism is for the remission of all former sins. The purpose of the prophet who would come before the Messiah was to "bring the people back into a state of obedience so that they could ready themselves to receive the Anointed". Baptism in Mormonism has similar meanings. Since it is for the remission of sins, a sort of ritual purity is assumed at one's baptism. If they have truly repented of their sins through faith in the Redeemer, all former sins are "washed away", and they become clean and pure, like new born children - spiritually speaking. Baptism according to us, is also the way that converts who are not literal descendants of Israel, are adopted into the house of Israel. We also teach that it is significant that Jesus went to John the Baptist to receive this ordinance, because John, as a descendant of Aaron, was a rightful holder of the Aaronic priesthood, which priesthood has the authority to preach repentance and to baptize by immersion. Modern revelation also points out, that the keys of the Aaronic priesthood were committed to John when he was 8 days old. Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also; And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel; Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb. For he was baptized while he was yet in his childhood, and was ordained by the angel of God at the time he was eight days old unto this power, to overthrow the kingdom of the Jews, and to make straight the way of the Lord before the face of his people, to prepare them for the coming of the Lord, in whose hand is given all power. (D&C 84:25-28) So, not only was John a son of Aaron, through his father Zacharias and his mother Elisabeth (Luke 1:5), but the keys of this priesthood were committed to him, and thus, he would have been equivalent to a high priest after the order of Aaron. This speaks volumes to the need for priesthood and authority when performing holy acts unto God, such as the ordinance of baptism. The Messiah, who himself was the head of the higher order of priesthood, sought out one who was duly authorized in order to be baptized. In Mormonism, both references, the passover lamb and the story of Abraham and his son Isaac, are types of the coming of the Messiah, who would be slain for the sins of the world. I especially like your commentary on the Abraham and Isaac. The prophet Jacob, in the Book of Mormon, who was the brother of Nephi (he is born later) teaches the following. For, for this intent have we written these things, that they may know that we knew of Christ, and we had a hope of his glory many hundred years before his coming; and not only we ourselves had a hope of his glory, but also all the holy prophets which were before us. Behold, they believed in Christ and worshiped the Father in his name, and also we worship the Father in his name. And for this intent we keep the law of Moses, it pointing our souls to him; and for this cause it is sanctified unto us for righteousness, even as it was accounted unto Abraham in the wilderness to be obedient unto the commands of God in offering up his son Isaac, which is a similitude of God and his Only Begotten Son. (Jacob 4:4-5) Thank you so much for your commentary. I also want to comment on what you said about kings and the sons of God. But I have to go. So I will do that later. Regards, Vanhin

One thing you can try is downloading Windows Vista Service Pack 2 and installing it. It may restore missing or corrupt files or the right version of files. Here's a link to the 32 bit version. Download details: Windows Server 2008 Service Pack 2 and Windows Vista Service Pack 2 - Five Language Standalone (KB948465) Right click on "Computer" in the Start menu, and select "Properties". Look for something that says "System type:". If the system type is "64-bit Operating System" then you will need the 64 bit version of the service pack instead of the one I linked above. Here is the link to it. Download details: Windows Server 2008 Service Pack 2 and Windows Vista Service Pack 2 - Five Language Standalone for x64-based systems (KB948465) Try it. Afterwards run Windows Update again and download all the updates. Doing all that might work. Regards, Vanhin

Hey MichaelCraig, Here are a couple that I thought of from the Bible. They are the words of Christ: 43 ¶ Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. (Matt. 5:43-45) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (Matt 6:12-15) And here are a coupple from the LDS Doctrine and Covenants: 10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men. (D&C 64:10) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, my servants, that inasmuch as you have forgiven one another your trespasses, even so I, the Lord, forgive you. (D&C 82:1) Hope that helps. Regards, Vanhin

And you do want to talk to the Ward Clerk at some point so that they can get your records transferred over to that local congregation. That is how you join the "local LDS Church" so to speak. :) Regards, Vanhin