Vanhin

They are different. Being sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise is not the same as being sealed to your spouse. After you have entered into the new and everlasting covenant (all of the ordinances including being sealed to your spouse), and then you "overcome by faith", God will "[seal] you up unto eternal life" (D&C 131:5), thus your election is made sure. That is also called being "sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise". And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true. They are they who are the church of the Firstborn. They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things— (D&C 76:53-55) Regards, Vanhin

If they received all the ordinances of salvation contained in the New and Everlasting Covenant, were true and faithful to those covenants and were sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise, then yes. If you take a few minutes to read the scripture references in the two "Guide to the Scriptures" links I posted for "Holy Spirit of Promise" and "Calling and Election", especially the references to D&C 88 and 84, I think you will see the correlation that I am seeing. That is the only way the passages in question in D&C 132 make sense. Regards, Vanhin

Exactly. The Book of Mormon specifically mentions the offices of teacher and priest in conjunction with the authority to teach "repentance and remission of sins" (Moro. 3). Interestingly in the next chapter, only priests (and elders) are mentioned as having authority to administer the sacrament (Moro. 4). Clearly, from our modern example, others besides Levites can hold the Aaronic priesthood in certain circumstances when the High Priesthood is in operation (see D&C 107). However, the Book of Mormon allows for even Levites to have been among them through the Mulekites, who were Jews (Lehites were Manasseh and Ephraim). Judah and the greater part of Benjamin were represented in the Southern Kingdom of Judah, and there were also Levites among all the tribes. We know who was with Lehi and his company, but we don't know who all came with the Mulekites - so it's possible. Anyway, we know from the great work for the dead that is being performed in our temples that only the Melchizedek priesthood and office of "elder" is required by men for salvation. All priesthood is Melchizedek anyway (see D&C 107 again). Regards, Vanhin

Salvation, in the most complete sense, comes only through the merits of Jesus Christ, to those who live according to His gospel. The first principles of the gospel of Jesus Christ, are faith in Jesus Christ, and repentance. Not only is faith, in Christ and His Atonement, necessary, but repentance (which is something we ourselves do) is made possible by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, no amount of pleading and begging would release us from the debt of our sins. We are able to repent, to begin with, because of the merits of Jesus Christ. So, when we repent, and engage in holy acts, such as baptism, and work hard to keep our covenants with God, it brings salvation to our souls because of the grace of God, through the Atonement of Christ. Faith, to Latter-day Saints, is more than mere belief. Regards, Vanhin

Well yes, the Holy Spirit of Promise is the Holy Ghost, but the phenomenon of being "sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise" is synonymous with having our "calling and election made sure". Regards, Vanhin

They are in deed. The Guide to the Scriptures summarizes it quite nicely. The Holy Spirit of Promise witnesses to the Father that the saving ordinances have been performed properly and that the covenants associated with them have been kept. (Guide to the Scriptures: Holy Spirit of Promise) Righteous followers of Christ can become numbered among the elect who gain the assurance of exaltation. This calling and election begins with repentance and baptism. It becomes complete when they “press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end” (Guide to the Scriptures: Calling and Election) When we have proven to the Lord that we will be true and faithful in all things, and at all times, and places, He will seal us unto eternal life by the Holy Spirit of Promise. 3 Wherefore, I now send upon you another Comforter, even upon you my friends, that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise; which other Comforter is the same that I promised unto my disciples, as is recorded in the testimony of John. 4 This Comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life, even the glory of the celestial kingdom; 5 Which glory is that of the church of the Firstborn, even of God, the holiest of all, through Jesus Christ his Son— (D&C 88:3-5) After this, if we sin and do not repent, we will still pay for those sins like anyone else, but after the suffering, we will receive exaltation according to D&C 132. Except if we commit the unpardonable sin, which is blasphemy against the Holy Ghost - which means that we are willing to shed innocent blood, and crucify the Lord "unto [ourselves]" (D&C 76:35), after having been made partakers of eternal life. Regards, Vanhin

Now I'm not going to claim that pre-Adamite creatures did not exist on this earth, for which fossils and remains have been found, such as dinosaurs and even humanoid looking creatures. But the scriptures say that Adam was the first man in several places. Whatever they were before Adam, however long ago that was, they are not mankind if they are not the posterity of Adam - if the scriptures are to be believed. From the Book of Moses we learn that "the first man of of all men" is always called Adam, whenever God, through His Only Begotten, creates an earth. "And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many." (Moses 1:33-34) There are those who believe (and they are free to believe this if they want) that mankind evolved from other species of animals. We learn from the scriptures that God brought forth fish, fowl, cattle, beasts, creeping things, and every living creature and commanded them to fill the measure of their creation, and to multiply upon the earth, "each after their kind"; I would ask the question, what were Adam's parents, if not humans? What species are the animals that finally bore a human? The absurdity implied in the belief that God created mankind upon the face of this earth through the process evolution, by having an animal species ultimately give birth to a human, seems improbable and inconsistent with the scriptures that state that the species are brought forth each after their kind. I submit that if Adam was created from the dust of this earth, by the process that brought the rest of us into these mortal bodies, in other words birth, it had to be through fully human parents. No other species can produce a human. Regards, Vanhin

Concerning the hill Cumorah, where the huge battle in the Book of Mormon occurred, we don't know where it is to begin with. So, I'm not sure how anyone can say that they have searched it and found no evidence of the battle. Regards, Vanhin

Along the same lines as the question Finrock asked, were we individuals before we became the spirit offspring of God? Were we individuals before we were born into mortality? Were we individuals before we were born again as children of Christ when we were baptized? Are we children of God right now, before we become his heirs when we are exalted? Was Christ God before he was exalted? Was Christ God before he entered mortality? Was Christ an individual before he was begotten as a spirit child of God the Father? Was he a God before? I say yes to all those questions, and what I believe about Christ's divinity, I believe about the Father's divinity as well. No, Christ did not receive a "fullness of the Father" at first, meaning He did not always have an exalted body, but as an intelligence, He was always like God. Jehovah, the pre-mortal Jesus Christ, taught Abraham that among intelligences there are varying degrees. ...if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal. And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all. (Abr. 3:18-19) Those are the words of Jehovah (See Abr. 2:8). No wonder He was chosen to be the Firstborn, when the Father found himself among spirits and glory, himself equally intelligent, when the great plan of happiness was put into motion. Taught the Prophet: The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon) God is God because he is more intelligent, and thus has the power exalt us with Himself. That's my belief, based on my understanding of the scriptures, for what it is worth. Regards, Vanhin

Well it is true. LISTEN to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Redeemer, the Great I Am, whose arm of mercy hath atoned for your sins; (D&C 29:1) I am not aware of any names of Christ that are "I Was" or "I Will Become", but I AM is one of his names. Why would that have any bearing on us being here? Regards, Vanhin

I worship God the Father and His Son, Jesus the Christ, in Spirit and truth. Nephi taught that we should "believe in Christ, and worship the Father in his name, with pure hearts and clean hands" (2 Ne. 25:16), and in the same chapter he taught: And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out. (2 Ne. 25:29) Our scriptures teach that "in the beginning" Christ was with God and he was God. The title page of the Book of Mormon, declares that "Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God" (Title Page), and there is rarely a reference to Christ in any of our scriptures that does not affirm his divinity. Abinadi, taught that "God himself" would come down and "redeem his people" (Mosiah 15:1). Jesus is not the God of just one world. Under the direction of the Father, He is the Creator and Redeemer of worlds without number, of which ours is just one (Moses 1:33) - and that "by him [Christ], and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:24). Though opinions have been made by members of this and other churches in the past, I see no equivocation in the scriptures of Christ's divinity. They are right there before us. He is the Great I AM, the Alpha and the Omega, the Eternal God. Glory to God on high! Let heav’n and earth reply. Praise ye his name. His love and grace adore, Who all our sorrows bore. Sing aloud evermore: Worthy the Lamb! Jesus, our Lord and God, Bore sin’s tremendous load. Praise ye his name. Tell what his arm has done, What spoils from death he won. Sing his great name alone: Worthy the Lamb! Let all the hosts above Join in one song of love, Praising his name. To him ascribed be Honor and majesty Thru all eternity: Worthy the Lamb! Glory to God on High - Text: James Allen, 1734–1804, alt. Regards, Vanhin

Hey InquisitiveSoul, There is a saying among latter-day saints, quite possibly originating from one of our passages of scripture, that goes, "Lose yourself in the service of others". Nothing I can think of will uplift your spirits more than giving a helping hand to another of your own free will. Not because anyone told you to, or because it is your duty, but because you want to help. In our Church, we have many opportunities to serve other people. However, I think that whatever your faith is, or your situation in life, you can serve those around you. Do it impulsively without any desire for earthly rewards, and do it anonymously if you can. It is difficult to not care for or love people you serve, so I think it will help with your attitude. The scripture I was referring to above, is from the Book of Mormon. In it a King named Benjamin spent his entire life serving the people he ruled over. He even made his own living by his own labor rather than burdening his people with taxes. In an address to his people he said the following: And behold, I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; that ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God. (Mosiah 2:17) Those are words to live by. When we serve others, we are in the service of God. I think it is a good place to start. And I also agree with marts1. During those quiet moments when you are not working or serving others, take a moment to ponder the words of the Scriptures. If you believe in the Bible, then pick it up and read the "words of life" and apply them in your own daily life. I also recommend the Book of Mormon. Here is a link to the Online Edition -> Book of Mormon . Sincerely, Vanhin

Oh no that was just Snow. I don't think he can help himself. Though, I did find the following comment quite profound. Vanhin

The proposal also calls for a monthly payment to all family households of lawful U.S. residents as an advance rebate, or 'prebate', of tax on purchases up to the poverty level. ... With the [p]rebate taken into consideration, the FairTax would be progressive on consumption... (FairTax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) Regards, Vanhin

Currently I am a proponent of the "Fair Tax Act", which would "replace all federal income taxes[1] with a single broad national consumption tax on retail sales." (source) Regards, Vanhin

Let's see... So far, the participants have taught to our new friend doctrines that he did not know before, such as the following: 1) God is corporeal being, with a body of flesh and bone. 2) God is an exalted Man. 3) The spirits of mankind are the offspring of God. 4) Spirit is matter. 5) Mortality is part of God's plan for his children. 6) Through this mortal experience, man receives a body and an opportunity to exercise inherent free will. 7) God can and does make himself known to man. 8) Man can become like God. 9) Mormonism believes in modern prophets, who have seen God. 10) Joseph Smith saw and described God. 11) Mormonism believes the Book of Mormon to be the word of God. 12) Through a process of faith, as taught in that book, man can receive knowledge about and from God. 13) Reading and pondering the Book of Mormon is part of this process of faith. 14) And probably a few other points I did not list. How is doctrine not being taught here? Many of those points were made by people who have been discussing these things with Roundearth in ways that satisfy the OP. There's no reason to harass the participants here. Come on, let's just maintain mutual respect. Also, think about it, when has Snow been on the right side of the argument before? This is momentous, despite his clear abrasiveness. :) Regards, Vanhin

FunkyTown, I don't see anything inappropriate about this conversation, and I see it as furthering the understanding of God, which fills both of the purposes of the OP, which were to "hone [his] critical thinking skills" and "learn from [us]". It is my opinion that we are discussing the subject of God in terms that Roundearth understands, and that his understanding has in fact increased because of it. I don't think chiding the participants, when everyone seems to be enjoying each others contributions, is very helpful. Except for this particular contribution, which is in fact "off-track", even your very own contributions have been quite enjoyable up to this point. Regards, Vanhin

Roundearth, Here are links to 11 of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon for easy access. This is from the Internet Edition of our Scriptures. Testimony of Three Witnesses Testimony of Eight Witnesses Regards, Vanhin

Apparently, as far as the original poster is concerned, this thread is not off track and is fulfilling his purpose from many angles. His purpose is and was to "to hone [his] critical thinking skills and to learn from [us]." (http://www.lds.net/forums/general-discussion/30582-case-strong-atheism.html#post480666). I think he has had plenty of stimulating "debate" from smart latter-day saints, and has learned quite a bit from us as well. I've yet to see Roundearth complain about any of this, and he even seems capable of handling the volume of responses. So, don't be stirring up any trouble right now, and let him be the one to tell us when we are "off track". :) Regards, Vanhin

Hey Jody, welcome to the site and welcome back!

I will just make this one comment on this off topic conversation and then be done with it. You should have picked up a AMD Phenom II X2 555 Callisto 3.2GHz Black Edition instead! I just got my new parts in about a week ago and was able to unlock the additional cores with my ASRock Motherboard. I basically have a Phenom II x4 955 for the price of a a dual core ($101). Rock solid performance. Finrock has one too and he was able to over clock his to 3.7 with just air cooling. Regards, Vanhin

All of this reminds me of a "Star Trek: The Next Generation" episode, where Picard quotes Hamlet to Q, who appears to be worried that humans have the capacity to progress beyond the Q eventually. Here's the quote. "What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason, how infinite in faculties, in form and moving how express and admirable, in action how like an angel, in apprehension how like a god!" (II.ii.304-308). Regards, Vanhin

Hey Roundearth! Thank you for taking the time to read through those verses. I really appreciate you analyzing the message as well. Your summarization is very good. Not only is the "experiment" a road map for the faithful to follow in accomplishing happiness, or heaven, it is also offered as a method for those of little faith, who only can muster a "desire to believe", to know if something is true or not, concerning God. You have already planted the seed, by even considering the words that I asked you to read, and by your further willingness to read the Book of Mormon. And continuing to read and ponder the words of the Book of Mormon, for instance, you are certainly nourishing the ground where the seed is planted. As long as you do not cast the seed out, or if you fail to nourish it, because of you disbelief, the promise is that the seed will begin to sprout and swell within you, and you will know for yourself, like we do, that the seed is good. In your case, I propose that you study it with the intent of finding out for yourself if there is a God or not. See if the words, their meanings and their logic, will enlarge your understanding and compliment your intelligence concerning this matter. That is the experiment. There is no rush, and I cannot say how or when God will speak to you. Our scriptures teach that it will be after your faith is sufficiently tried. However, I can promise you that if you truly seek it, God will make himself known to you, and in a way that you cannot deny it. Regards, Vanhin

The following just prompted me to add a few thoughts. I am still convinced that our understanding of God must have some effect on how you argue this matter with us, despite what Bluejay has been saying. Mormonism asserts that mortal men are but seedlings and God a fully grown Oak. Our concept of God is so vastly different than the concept of other Christians, that many of them deny that we are Christians because of it. Our doctrine is heretical - that God is an exalted Man, and that we can become like him. Latter-day saint eye witnesses to God describe him as a Person, who is a resurrected Man, with a tangible body. For example, Joseph Smith described two personages who appeared to him in a pillar of light, who spoke to him as one man speaks to another. One of the Persons introduced the other as his Son, who then addressed Joseph. Here is a depiction of the type of God we believe in. Regards, Vanhin

Let me suggest The Scriptures, Internet Edition It includes all of our "standard works" online, complete with cross-references and study helps (such as the Guide to the Scriptures), and is easy to search. Regards, Vanhin