Vanhin

I ran accross a couple of quotes that have been shared before, but I think they are worth mentioning again. "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil was rent to-day, and the Great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him to-day, you would see him like a man in form—like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image, and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another."—Joseph Smith; see Compendium, p. 190. "As the Father hath power in himself, so hath the Son power in himself, to lay down his life and take it again, so he has a body of his own. The Son doeth what he hath seen the Father do: then the Father hath some day laid down his life and taken it again; so he has a body of his own; each one will be in his own body."—Joseph Smith; see Hist, of the Church, vol. 5, p. 426. It is evident from those quotes that God the Father entered mortality, and being God, had the power to lay down his life and take it back up again - just like God the Son did. Though I can see how an infinite regress of gods can be specualted from what we have, the understanding is not specifically implied in the above quotes. The main points seem to be something else. From them I get: 1) God is an Exalted Man who has an immortal, glorified body of flesh and bone. 2) He gained his body by entering mortality, like the rest of us. 3) He was God before, during, and after said mortal experience, where he had power to lay down his life and take it back up again, like the Son. 4) He is the God of all worlds and all things. I think those truths can be established from the scrpitures. Beyond that, I think it is safe to say we know very little. Regards, Vanhin

I love this stuff. Here's more from the same chapter... As heretofore shown in another connection, the Father operated in the work of creation through the Son, who thus became the executive through whom the will, commandment, or word of the Father was put into effect. It is with incisive appropriateness therefore, that the Son, Jesus Christ, is designated by the apostle John as the Word; or as declared by the Father "the word of my power".[71] The part taken by Jesus Christ in the creation, a part so prominent as to justify our calling Him the Creator, is set forth in many scriptures. The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews refers in this wise distinctively to the Father and the Son as separate though associated Beings: "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds."[72] Paul is even more explicit in his letter to the Colossians, wherein, speaking of Jesus the Son, he says: "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist."[73] And here let be repeated the testimony of John, that by the Word, "who was with God, and who was God even in the beginning, all things were made; and without him was not anything made that was made."[74] Regards, Vanhin

Dove, Have you read "Jesus the Christ", by James E. Talmage, before? This is one of the handful of books that missionaries are allowed to read besides the scriptures. I highly recommend it - even for those who have not read it in a while. In it, the antemortal Godship of Jesus Christ is made in unequivocal terms. It is one of my all time favorites, and just thinking about it now makes me want to read it again. Check out this sample: It now becomes our purpose to inquire as to the position and status of Jesus the Christ in the antemortal world, from the period of the solemn council in heaven, in which He was chosen to be the future Savior and Redeemer of mankind, to the time at which He was born in the flesh. We claim scriptural authority for the assertion that Jesus Christ was and is God the Creator, the God who revealed Himself to Adam, Enoch, and all the antediluvial patriarchs and prophets down to Noah; the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; the God of Israel as a united people, and the God of Ephraim and Judah after the disruption of the Hebrew nation; the God who made Himself known to the prophets from Moses to Malachi; the God of the Old Testament record; and the God of the Nephites. We affirm that Jesus Christ was and is Jehovah, the Eternal One. The scriptures specify three personages in the Godhead; (1) God the Eternal Father, (2) His Son Jesus Christ, and (3) the Holy Ghost. These constitute the Holy Trinity, comprizing three physically separate and distinct individuals, who together constitute the presiding council of the heavens.[67] At least two of these appear as directing participants in the work of creation; this fact is instanced by the plurality expressed in Genesis: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"; and later, in the course of consultation concerning Adam's act of transgression, "the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us."[68] From the words of Moses, as revealed anew in the present dispensation,[Pg 33] we learn more fully of the Gods who were actively engaged in the creation of this earth: "And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." Then, further, with regard to the condition of Adam after the fall: "I, the Lord God, said unto mine Only Begotten: Behold, the man is become as one of us."[69] In the account of the creation recorded by Abraham, "the Gods" are repeatedly mentioned.[70] (The Project Gutenberg eBook of Jesus The Christ, by James E. Talmage - Chapter 4) Here's a link to the whole book online. The Project Gutenberg eBook of Jesus The Christ, by James E. Talmage. Regards, Vanhin

mordorbund, President Monson (while still a counselor in the First Presidency) said the following: "God Himself is a soul, composed of a spirit and of a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man’s. He is a resurrected, glorified, exalted, omniscient, omnipotent person and is omnipresent in spirit and power and influence, the ruler of the heavens and the earth and all things therein." (LDS.org - Liahona Article - An Invitation to Exaltation) While its just a simple nuance, it is notable that "spirit" is not capitalized in conjunction with omnipresence - perhaps to point out that it is not a personal omnipresence by the Holy Ghost, but one of influence. When we all are able to observe General Conference throughout the world in our meeting places and homes, it may seem unremarkable to a generation acquainted with the technology of our day, but to ancient generations, our feat would be nothing short miraculous. It would be a display of omnipresence, of which workings, the world would know nothing about. There is an influence, or power, that proceeds forth from the Father through His Son, that gives life and light to all things, and is the law by which all things are governed in heaven and on earth. One of its many manifestations to us, is conscience. It is the light of truth, or the light of Christ, which is also sometimes referred to in scripture as simply truth, spirit, and intelligence. It is light - perhaps more than metaphorically. When we consider electromagnetic radiation in the physical world, some of it radiates in wavelengths outside the spectrum of visible light. We don't see it, but it is everywhere, and we have learned to utilize that unseen radiation to broadcast messages to more than one place at a time. Surely the Creator, who is both omniscient and omnipotent, knows and is able to be omnipresent in spirit, power, and influence in order to accomplish his purposes. I love the scriptures. Check this out. The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall comprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him. Then shall ye know that ye have seen me, that I am, and that I am the true light that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound. ... And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things. Therefore, sanctify yourselves that your minds become single to God, and the days will come that you shall see him; for he will unveil his face unto you, and it shall be in his own time, and in his own way, and according to his own will. (D&C 88:49-50, 67-68) Regards, Vanhin

Please brush your teeth on fast Sunday... please... Regards, Vanhin

1. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (100%) 2. Jehovahs Witness (86%) 3. Orthodox Judaism (80%) 4. Eastern Orthodox (77%) 5. Roman Catholic (77%)

This might be somewhat helpful. Q: Is a mission for everyone? Elder Hinckley: I would not say that a full-time mission is for everyone. Missionary work is rigorous. It is demanding. It is difficult. It has never been easy, and it never will be. It requires strength of body, strength of mind; strength of spirit. We must face the fact that there are a few who should not try to perform a full-time mission. Those who cannot should not feel discouraged because some incapacity will not permit them to go. We should remember that there are many ways to serve the Lord acceptably. I feel strongly, however, that every member of the Church should live to be worthy to go on a mission and teach the gospel to others. Then, of course, we need to accept the judgment of our church officers concerning our qualifications. If the bishop feels that it would be better that we not go on a mission, then we should accept that judgment and go forth and do those things that we can do. There are many ways to help build the kingdom. If every young person tries to equip himself for missionary work, he will be better qualified to teach the gospel as the opportunity presents itself in his normal walks of life. (LDS.org - New Era Article - A Visit with Elder Gordon B. Hinckley about Missionary Work) Regards, Vanhin

Congratulations BluePlastic! You did it! Welcome into the fold of Christ. Sincerely, Vanhin

Me too justice. I have been trying to show that without further light and knowledge on the matter, an alternate understanding is possible, that seems to me to more readily agree with the definitive statements of God's character in the scriptures. I don't mind criticism from the enemies of the Church about our very peculiar doctrines. But when they approach us about matters that are not established doctrines, we don't have to try to prove them. We can agree with them that God is God, from everlasting to everlasting, because that is the language of our scriptures. If there is more profound meaning to those statements than meet the eye, then we shall surely know them when God makes them manifest to us through the process that makes the binding. Then we are bound to teach them and even defend them. I enjoy our conversations as well. Thank you. Regards, Vanhin

The King Follett discourse, or the version that we have, has been quoted extensively in the many discussions we have had concerning the topic - by both sides of the debate. It is clearly not sufficient enough to settle the matter. I have quoted from it while making my case in recent active posts. On the surface, your challenge of my "premise" seems accurate. I do maintain that the official doctrine of this Church is found in our scriptures. However, I have not, nor do I discount the fact that living prophets can supersede scripture. However, until a doctrine has gone through the process that makes it binding, and it is added to our canon, it is not the official doctrine of this Church, and we are not bound by it. There have been many things said by prophets and apostles in their many sermons that are not "true revelations". You are not just disagreeing with me, and this concept is not original with me. It is the policy of the Church. Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. A single statement made by a single leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, but is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church. With divine inspiration, the First Presidency (the prophet and his two counselors) and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (the second-highest governing body of the Church) counsel together to establish doctrine that is consistently proclaimed in official Church publications. This doctrine resides in the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Isolated statements are often taken out of context, leaving their original meaning distorted. (Approaching Mormon Doctrine - LDS Newsroom) I am reminded about a quote from the Preach My Gospel manual: As you pray for inspiration, you should also confirm your feelings. For example, compare your decisions with the scriptures and the teachings of the living prophets. Be certain that the feelings are consistent with the assignment you have; for example, you will not receive revelation to tell a local bishop how he should perform in his calling. Discuss your decisions and conclusions with your companion, your district leader, or your mission president when appropriate. (http://www.lds.org/languages/additionalmanuals/preachgospel/PreachMyGospel___11_04_RecognizeTheSpirit__36617_eng_011.pdf) The most recent encounter a living prophet had with the question of the origin of God, as it pertains to this disagreement, happened with the late President Gordon B. Hinckley. In a 1997 Time Magazine interview President Hinckley was asked about the couplet, "As man is now, God once was; as God is now man may be", his answer cause quite a stir. He said: I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it. (see Nature of God/Hinckley downplaying the King Follett Discourse - FAIRMormon) Obviously he is referring to the first part of the couplet (As man is now, God once was) in his response. That is something we do not know much about. Obviously we know much more about the second part - concerning exaltation. President Hinckley's answer was correct, and was in harmony with the scriptures. Not only that, I have been in a Q&A session with a General Authority when he was asked the questions, "Does God the Father have a father?", and the answer was a sharp "We do not know.", followed by a discussion on avoiding speculation and about how sometimes "I don't know." is the right answer. Anything spoken from the pulpit in this Church, that is considered doctrine of this Church, has been in harmony with the scriptures. I don't know of any exceptions. I maintain that if it is the doctrine of this Church, you can demonstrate it from the official sources of doctrine, which are - the four “standard works” of scripture (the Holy Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), official declarations and proclamations, and the Articles of Faith. Regards, Vanhin

Justice, My point, without the long drawn-out speculative explanations is simply this. We do not know. I think it has been a big disservice to the cause of our religion to constantly speculate so publicly about things beyond what is binding doctrine, or even worse, teach things as doctrine that even current general authorities and the president of the Church would answer "We do not know!" to. I have heard it with my own ears when the question was asked, "Does God have a Father?" The answer is "We do not know." For whatever the reasons are for God to say the things that He has, he has been quite clear on the point that there is not beginning of days or end of years to him. Even if an infinite regress of gods is the reality, it has not been revealed to the world, and we should be content to describe God the way he has described himself and just leave it at that. He is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God and framer of the universe. Regards, Vanhin

I didn't think is was a difficult question. It was a predictable question. Which is exactly what I answered. They were married while in mortality. That doesn't prove an infinite regress of gods. I'm not sure what to answer to you here. I believe those things too. How were you born to earthly parents if you already existed? How were you then born again as a child of Christ, if you already existed. Clearly a person can be born who already existed. You don't have any "real" basis for your claim that one can only be born if they do not exist. You don't know that, and scriptures do not teach it. It is your speculation. God is a glorified man. I have never argued otherwise. But that alone does not prove and infinite regress of gods. If you are going to go on what Joseph Smith taught, then you must accept that God did not create the spirit of man. I'm not talking about "spirit matter" I am talking who we really are. I want to reason more on the spirit of man; for I am dwelling on the body and spirit of man—on the subject of the dead. I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the housetops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself. Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The King Follett Sermon) It was during their mortal experience. I did not say probation. It is not a probation for everyone. Take those who die before the age of accountability, for example. We do not know anything about God's mortal experience - just that he has entered mortality, since He has a body. I have already pointed that out myself. I do believe God entered mortality to gain a body. I'm not sure what you are arguing again, since I believe that. That does not prove an infinite regress of gods. I don't know, why did you bring it up by asking "Where did God's wife come from, if there is no infinite regress of gods?" That's the same question as "Where did it all begin?" That's what I was trying to point out to you. Why is it easier for you to believe that there is an infinite regress of gods (with no beginning), but you cannot believe the words of the scripture that say God is infinite? But... you don't have any trouble applying the right definition for "infinite" when it comes to the regress of gods. We do not know from any canonized "revelations" that God has parents. This is speculation, and is not in harmony with the scriptures. What the story of Adam teaches us, is that God was first, and the rest of the "generations" came after. There is no mention of Adam's parents. His body was formed from the dust of the earth, according to scriptures, and was the first man on a given earth. Each creation is a type of the one eternal round we call eternity. God is the universal Adam and his wife the universal Eve of all mankind. That's what it teaches us. Really, so you will only be sealed to your spouse for all of "this" eternity? How come we never have any trouble understanding what eternity means in conjunction with the covenants we make? It means just as it appears to mean, forever and ever and ever...without end. Otherwise, there is an end. How did His atonement apply to anyone before He actually performed it. Like Adam, for example, and the brother of Jared, who was redeemed from the fall? I'll tell you how. It is infinite and eternal. There are no bounds to it, and was completed once and for all, and was in effect before it was performed. The intelligence who is Jehovah, existed before the covenant that made Him the Only Begotten... before He was the Firstborn of all of God's children. But I don't know that the atonement needed to apply to the Father. He was, after all, God. He had power over life and death, and could give up his life and take it back again... And further, the intelligence who became the Only Begotten Son was witness to this event, which allowed Him to make the following statement about power over death: Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19) How did Christ see the Father do similar things (heal the sick, raise the dead), if he did not exist during the Father's mortal experience? Joseph Smith taught that God found himself among the intelligences, and made a plan that allowed all to be exalted with himself, because He was more intelligent. There was another who was like unto God, this is who became the Firstborn. In the beginning we were all there with God (D&C 93:29), before the pact was made. This does not mean that the most intelligent being had already received the "fullness". Obviously He did not yet have a body. But still he was God, and possessed the power to organize matter and so forth. Just like the pre-mortal Christ did. That quote is saying that all the worlds are created by Christ, and that through Christ's atonement, the inhabitants of the worlds become "begotten" sons and daughters unto God. The exalted, will "bear" the souls of men, as the scriptures promise, and continue the work of the Father, thereby glorifying his name. But we will not be creating something out of nothing. I've already shown you that non-existence is not a prerequisite for being born. You yourself are an example of that. Regards, Vanhin

If it is our doctrine that God was once "not God", then you should be able to demonstrate it from our scriptures. Regards, Vanhin

Soninme and Jessica, the Book of Mormon appears to agree with the both of you in more than one place. Here's a sample. For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing. (Moroni 7:22) And so does our Doctrine and Covenants: By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them; (D&C 20:17) And so does our Pearl of Great Price: And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless? (Moses 1:3) And more from the Book of Moses: And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many... ...And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. (Moses 1:31-34, 37-39) Regards, Vanhin

Sorry, I don't look at the dates of these threads always before I post. My apologies. I believe the scriptures are true on this matter. Interpretation is often flawed. We have arrived at the correct understanding of what "One God" means because of the teachings of modern prophets. I should also note, that our scriptures presently include these clear teachings. I would also argue that since our scriptures teach that God the Son prayed to and worshiped the Father, then that means that God the Father is ultimately the "One True God". The purpose and doctrine of the Son and the Holy Ghost, is one with the Father's purpose and doctrine. So, when God the Holy Ghost inspires or reveals something to us, it is the inspiration and revelation of the Father. Well, you can pray to know the truth of anything. The advantage you have with praying about the Book of Mormon, is that you have something to hold in your hands, to read and to ponder over, before you pray. But the end result is the same, and you are right, that if the Book of Mormon is true then you also know that Joseph Smith was a prophet. But you can also specifically pray to know that his experience in the sacred grove actually happened. You can know the truth of all things by the power of the Holy Ghost. I have no quarrels with that understanding. To latter-day saints, then, we are all of one "spiritual" substance at our core - meaning that we are made up of the same spiritual matter, as you put it. The bottom line is that the members of the Godhead are three individual persons who are in harmony with the will of the senior member, God the Father. That is their oneness. Regards, Vanhin

I knew exactly what you were setting me up for. But I'm comfortable with my beliefs. I know that I have a heavenly mother, and that's it. You don't know any more than that either. We know that God did not create our immortal spirit (intelligence), neither did He create hers. Clearly we have no record of it, but based on our scriptures, however, it would have been during their mortal experience, just like us. I have all sorts of speculation on the matter, but I'm not about to indulge in it any more at this time. If you think that an infinite regress of gods answers your puzzle, then you are not being honest. An infinite regress of gods is just as incomprihensible to the mortal mind as an infinite God is. The same questions must be asked and answered, where did it all begin? The big difference between the two is that an "infinite and eternal" God, who is from "everlasting to everlasting" is supported by scripture. An infinite regress of gods does not seem to enjoy such support from holy writ. Not one peep about other christs and other gods above the Most High God can be found. Only in the specualtion of men. Both the scriptures and modern prophets and apostles agree that God is not the God of just one earth, and that Christ's Atonement is "infinite and eternal" - universal - and was done once and for all. That is the language of the scriptures, and that is what I am going to stick with until (and if) God reveals more through his chosen oracle. And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:22-24) Regards, Vanhin

God the Father is married. He is the Man of Holiness, is He not? Regards, Vanhin

That is ultimately what exaltation is all about. In order to be exalted we must obey the will of the Father, by receiving the ordinances of salvation and being true to the associated covenants, including being sealed in the temple to our spouse. If covenants are kept, we will be made one with the Father, like the Son is. Of the new and everlasting covenant. It is given to us to "...multiply and replenish the earth, according to [God's] commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by [the] Father before the foundation of the world, and for [our] exaltation in the eternal worlds, that [we] may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of [the] Father continued, that he may be glorified." (see D&C 132:63) Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (D&C 132:20) Regards, Vanhin

Hey BluePlastic, You hang in there. Rarely have I seen someone convert and be baptized without any opposition at all. There are very real forces at work to oppose your baptism, and to discourage you and bring you down. Stay close to the Lord, through prayer and scripture study, as Just_A_Guy pointed out, and keep the commitments you have made. What kinds of things have been happening? Regards, Vanhin

Though I don't belive in "multiple christs" as you suggest in some of your language in the above post, I do agree with the above statement. Jesus Christ, and His At-one-ment is what makes it possible for us to be one with God in the end. Regards, Vanhin

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. I think having that kind of concern for one another is certainly a feature of being one with each other. I do indeed. The last two sentences in the scripture confirm my belief. Notice the boldface in the quote: Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine. In otherwords, if we are to be as God is, we must be unified in our efforts, together with God. That is what the oneness means to latter-day saints. Clearly it does not mean that we are combined into a single being, but something more profound. Take the preceding verses from the same chapter: But, verily I say unto you that in time ye shall have no king nor ruler, for I will be your king and watch over you. Wherefore, hear my voice and follow me, and you shall be a free people, and ye shall have no laws but my laws when I come, for I am your lawgiver, and what can stay my hand? (D&C 38:21-22) What makes the Son one with the Father, is his complete obedience to the will of the Father. Because of His perfect obedience to the Father, Jesus Christ does not say or do anything that is out of harmony with the will of the Father- His will being swallowed up in the will of the Father. So when the Savior speaks, it is as if the Father is speaking. Likewise, if we will act in complete obedience to the commandments and example of the Son, we are also acting in complete obedience to the will of the Father, and what we say and do, is as if the Father had said or done it. To Lord puts it this way: What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. (D&C 1:38) When the prophet receives direction from God the Son, the lawgiver, and teaches it to the Apostles and they in turn teach it to the other general authorities on down to the Bishops of the wards and further to the families in the world, and if there was perfect obedience at every level, then would we not be considered one with the Father? We would! Unfortunately we are not there as a whole right now. We are not yet "one". However, individually we can be one with the Lord. The Godhead, already enjoys this perfect unity, and it is what they desire for us. Consider these words of the Savior, as he prayed for his disciples: Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:20-24) What do you think? Regards, Vanhin

mordorbund, Hey there. There is a flurry of similar questions on the forums currently. But I don't mind engaging you here. What do you make of the following scripture? In it the Lord commands the saints to "be one". What does He mean by that? And again I say unto you, let every man esteem his brother as himself. For what man among you having twelve sons, and is no respecter of them, and they serve him obediently, and he saith unto the one: Be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here; and to the other: Be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there—and looketh upon his sons and saith I am just? Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine. (D&C 38:25-27) Regards, Vanhin

I don't see anything in any of the sources of latter-day saint official doctrine that suggests that God has not always been God. On the contrary, the scriptures teach that He is God from everlasting to everlasting. By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them; And that he created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness, created he them; (D&C 20:17-18) If there are gods greater than the Most High God, latter-day scriptures make no mention of him. We are therefore oblidged and bound to accept that there indeed is no other God. We, as offsprings of the Great Framer of the Universe, are by virtue of our existence gods in the sense that our spirits are co-eternal with God and our potential is to become heirs and join heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:17) - kings and priests, and queens and priestesses unto the Most High God forever and ever, but we are not "The God". We are his children. As to the origin of the Eternal Father we call God, we do not know. We do know that He is an exalted Man and has an immortal, glorified body of flesh and bone (D&C 130:22), and therefore has completed a process of mortality whereby he gained a physical body, but like Jesus Christ, He was God before, during, and after his mortal experience. On the origin of God and mankind, Joseph Smith taught the following: “The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.” (History of the Church, 6:310–12; capitalization modernized; from a discourse given by Joseph Smith on Apr. 7, 1844, in Nauvoo, Illinois; reported by Wilford Woodruff, Willard Richards, Thomas Bullock, and William Clayton; see also appendix, page 562, item 3.) The above statement is in harmony with our current canon of scripture, concerning God. Regards, Vanhin

Mudcat, When the U.S. Army advertises an "Army of One", or when Maximus in the Gladiator tells his comrades to "Be as one!", or when the Bible teaches that a man and a woman, when married, "shall be one flesh", people don't generally have any trouble understanding what kind of "oneness" or unity is being spoken of. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are One God in that same very real and practical way. They are one in purpose and love for mankind. The doctrine of the members of the Godhead is the exact same, and there is no variance. So they are "One God". The main reason latter-day saints do not struggle with this issue is because we don't start from trying to interpret the meaning of scriptures to come to the conclusion we have. We start with the First Vision of Joseph Smith, and the revelations of modern prophets who have conversed with God the Father and Jesus Christ. Revelation is the rock upon which this doctrine is built. Since we know from the experience of modern prophets that the spirits of mankind are the offspring of God the Father, and that the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost are individual persons, then we conclude that the oneness of members of the Godhead spoken of in the scriptures is of purpose, not of substance in the Trinitarian sense. Regards, Vanhin

Yeah that's no feat at all.