Vanhin

Yeah HethePrimate, I don't mind going with the crowd as long as they are going where I am going. Regards, Vanhin

That is a good question to ask in class, after you have taught the material (or a principle) from the Chapter. That's where the real teaching and the learning occurs. Appoint among yourselves a teacher, and let not all be spokesmen at once; but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings, that when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man may have an equal privilege. (D&C 88:122) Prepare yourself by studying the materials provided and the scriptures associated with the topic, and then teach as the Spirit leads you to teach. Therefore, why is it that ye cannot understand and know, that he that receiveth the word by the Spirit of truth receiveth it as it is preached by the Spirit of truth? Wherefore, he that preacheth and he that receiveth, understand one another, and both are edified and rejoice together. And that which doth not edify is not of God, and is darkness. (D&C 50:21-23) Oh and one more thing. And the Spirit shall be given unto you by the prayer of faith; and if ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach. (D&C 42:14) Regards, Vanhin

A couple of things to add to this. That's right. Adam fell because of transgression. But obviously he had to be cast out of the garden and guarded from partaking of the tree of life any more, or he would have lived forever in his sins. That's right from the scriptures. :) Since Adam did not know the difference between good and evil, and had not yet been tested and prevailed, whatever his body was in the garden, it was not a celestial body, as those redeemed from the fall will receive in the resurrection. He did not have the fullness of the Father before the fall, which appears to be your premise. The garden and the tree of life obviously played a role in the maintenance of the their terrestrial bodies, or else there would not have been a need to prevent them from access to them after the fall. Yeah, it has been an interesting conversation, as always. I'm actually glad we had it because this is where you and I left off before. :) I think at least we understand one another a little better now. Sincerely, Vanhin

Two things further. First being born is being created. God has fashioned all of our bodies, not just Adam and Eve's. I'm not sure what you think the difference is. In case you did not know yet, magic plays no part in our religion... Everything that happens is governed by eternal law. In case you missed it before here is the reference. ...inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul... (Moses 6:59) The above reference was the Lord speaking to Adam. To be created of the dust of the earth, is to be born. Second, if the spirits of Adam and Eve were born of heavenly parents, then I have no hard time at all believing that spirit bodies have navels as well... I think you are having a hard time accepting that this world was "patterned after" the world where God exists and where we came from. It's only the corruption that is going away when the earth receives it's celestial glory, and we are exalted. The variety and beauty (things that you call random) will remain, because when God created it, He said it was good. The magnificence and glory of it all, however, will be that of God. Regards, Vanhin

It's not that we just "want the answer to be yes", it's that it is the most consistent answer with everything that we know from our own experience and the scriptures. The scriptures strongly suggest that Adam was born, as we have already demonstrated (See Moses 6:59). The scriptures constitute revelation on the matter... That is the main reason we believe it. I also have no problems with the idea that bodies can be fashion by the power of God... I believe even the process that produced my mortal body is done by the power of God, as He is my Creator. My parents were participants in that miracle. I also believe in the reality of the resurrection. The Lord fashioned for Adam a garment of the holy priesthood, as a shield and a protection, and to cover his nakedness. Adam and Eve were first of us here on this earth to wear the garment, and obviously some of the symbolism in the garment would be lost to them if they did not have navels... No matter how Adam and Eve's bodies came to be, they had navels. Regards, Vanhin

I am who I really am right now, and so are you. That is the reality expressed in the quotes I provided. We have individual identity which is quite tangible. The plan of Happiness allows us to obtain bodies, which will ultimately become an inseparable part of our identity. We will not be changing into clones. I hope you are not counting on that too much. Your spirit looks like your physical body, without all the frailties, and that semblance is an eternal part of your identity. When we are resurrected, we will, like all the resurrected beings who appeared to Joseph Smith, continue our individual semblance and be as identifiable as were Peter, James, John, Moroni, and so forth. Also, the trees and the animals, and all the many things that bring joy and happiness in this life, including the associations we make with people and art - all things that are put in the temporal state to beautify the world and to give it variety, will be with us when the earth receives its celestial glory. Only the magnificence of it all will be beyond our wildest dreams. I think you are mistaken. The good things of this world are a shadow of things to come, and we are placed here to have joy. Don't think for one second that the physical is not needed, the melding of the spiritual and physical is the ticket to attaining the fullness of joy. The elements are the tabernacle of God (D&C 93:35) Your idea of heaven, and exaltation does not seem like either to me, but I respect your freedom to believe as you wish. Sincerely, Vanhin

That seems to be the case. I don't agree that the scriptures say any such thing, though I'm aware that some people believe it. I think it would mean that Jesus is not the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, whether the flesh was mortal or immortal is irrelevant to the designation. God the Father sired only one Son in the flesh. See -> LDS.org - Search Like I pointed out, the last three verses in Moses 6 clarify what is meant by "son of God" as applied to Adam in that chapter, and it teaches that we can all become sons of God (spiritually begotten, heirs) the same way. Moses was likewise called a "son of God" (Moses 1:13), and clearly his physical body was not sired by God the Father. Also, your application of "son of God" from Moses 6:22 is inconstant with all the other references to "sons of God" in the surrounding chapters in Moses. For example, in the very next chapter, Enoch is said to continue to teach the true meaning of the designation (as it applies to everyone else besides the Only Begotten) to his posterity. And it came to pass that Enoch continued his speech, saying: Behold, our father Adam taught these things, and many have believed and become the sons of God, and many have believed not, and have perished in their sins, and are looking forth with fear, in torment, for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God to be poured out upon them. (Moses 7:1) Clearly what is meant, as far as the genealogical reference in concerned, is that Adam was the first man, and first "son of God" in the spiritually begotten sense, which was possible because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which was forthcoming. The point is Adam had communion with God, and was redeemed from the fall, and was thus a "son of God", and he was commanded to teach his posterity the gospel so that they could likewise become sons and daughters of God in the same sense. I believe Adam and Eve were originally mortal beings, who were kept immortal in their innocent state by the Tree of Life. This is clearly a very plausible belief, since when they were cast out of the garden, the Lord placed Cherubim and a flaming sword to prevent them from access to that tree lest they should partake of it and live forever in their sins. It is therefore more likely that Adam and Eve were born to mortal parents and placed on earth (as BY opined), than they being born to God the Father and a heavenly mother, since the latter would render the doctrine false which teaches that Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. Regards, Vanhin

Also, about Moses 6:22. That is referring to Adam who was the first to become a son of God by the process by which all can become begotten sons and daughters unto God. the last three verses of Moses chapter 6 clarifies this point. And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever; And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity. Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen. (Moses 6:66-68) And that is exactly what is meant in the following scripture from the Doctrine and Covenants. That by him [the Only Begotten], and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:24) We are all spirit offspring of heavenly parents, and we can all become begotten sons and daughters of God, meaning heirs and joint heirs with Christ. That's what the scriptures in Moses 6 mean about being born again. Regards, Vanhin

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but I think you mean born to parents... Our spirits were born to heavenly parents, not our physical bodies (see The Family: A Proclamation to the World). There is only one who is the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh, else He is not the Only One. :) I believe Adam was born as Moses 6:59 indicates, which means he had a belly button, but I believe more along the lines of what Brigham Young once taught. Mankind are here because they are the offspring of parents who were first brought here from another planet, and power was given them to propagate their species, and they were commanded to multiply and replenish the earth. The offspring of Adam and Eve are commanded to take the rude elements, and, by the knowledge God has given, to convert them into everything required for their life, health, adornment, wealth, comfort, and consolation. Have we the knowledge to do this? We have. Who gave us this knowledge? Our Father who made us; for he is the only wise God, and to him we owe allegiance; to him we owe our lives. He has brought us forth and taught us all we know. We are not indebted to any other power or God for all our great blessings. (JD 7:286, Brigham Young, October 9, 1859) The process of creating bodies of the dust of the earth, which are the "rude elements", is the process of how you and I came to be here in mortality. To Adam the Lord said, "...inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten..." (Moses 6:59). Regards, Vanhin

Seminarysnoozer, My individual identity is inseparable from who I am. The characteristics (not blemishes) that make me recognizable are part of my eternal identity, which includes my gender. Our bodies have the identifying characteristics of our spirits. We are individuals, and the gospel plan is all about the continuation of our individual development. The spirit and the body is the true identity of ourselves. And in this dispensation the Lord revealed that “the spirit and the body are the soul of man” (D&C 88:15). A truth that really is and always will be is that the body and the spirit constitute our reality and identity. When body and spirit are inseparably connected, we can receive a fulness of joy; when they are separated, we cannot receive a fulness of joy (see D&C 93:33–34). (LDS.org - Liahona Article - Things as They Really Are) So that the man receiving his wife by the power of God, for time and for all eternity, would have the right to claim her and she to claim her husband in the world to come. Neither would be changed, except from mortality to immortality, neither would be other than himself or herself; but they will have their identity in the world to come, precisely as they exercise their individuality and enjoy their identity here. God has revealed this principle, and it has its bearing upon the evidence that we possess of the actual, literal resurrection of the body, just as it is, and as the prophets have declared it in the Book of Mormon. Now, that is the faith of the Latter-day Saints, and that is the doctrine of this Church as taught in the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, the Bible, and the Pearl of Great Price; and we are willing to stand by it; and our children and our children’s children after us, to the latest generation, will abide this truth, for it is founded on revelation from God.” Joseph F. Smith (LDS.org - New Era Article - Presidents of the Church Speak on Temple Marriage) You can believe how you wish, but what you are saying just does not seem right at all. We are not going to turn into clones, we are going to maintain our eternal individuality, as we did when we entered mortality. The main difference after the resurrection is immortality. Having the countenance of the Savior is not referring to the removal of individuality. We are here for these bodies which have taken our very own individual appearance, that of our spirit. Do our spirits have belly buttons? Regards, Vanhin

I like Ricky Van Shelton's "Keep it Between the Lines" -> Also Conway Twitty's "That's My Job" strums certain chords inside me as well. -> YouTube - CONWAY TWITTY - THAT'S MY JOB - 1991 - LIVE That kind of stuff. Vanhin

Do our spirits have belly buttons? Vanhin

I like my belly button... I would like to keep it as a token of my mortal experience. Vanhin

I think when a person professes to be a Christian, you can tell by the way they treat their fellow man. Most latter-day saints I know seek to serve and love their neighbor, and I know many of others of different Christian faiths who do likewise. I think that is how you can tell a true disciple of Christ. A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. (John 13:34-35) It is true, latter-day saints consider themselves Christians, because our religion is based on the teachings of Christ both from ancient and modern sources, however, I think true discipleship is based on how well we emulate the Master's love for others. Sincerely, Vanhin

As long as being married by your sheik constitutes a legal and lawful marriage, I don't see how that would be a problem technically speaking. If both of your were Muslims and married to each other by a sheik, but later you converted to Mormonism, then the LDS Church would recognize your marriage as legal and lawful and you would not be in violation of the law of chastity as we see it. To us it is really not any different from any other legal and lawful marriage outside of our temple marriages. They are valid for this life. That said, she may have a legitimate issue personally with being wed by the priest of another religion. But our religion doesn't prohibit it - we simply assert that such marriages are not in effect in the afterlife, as our temple marriages would be. Regards, Vanhin

Exactly, spamlds! It's really not that we are trying to be more mainstream, it's that we have decided not to sit around and let others define or faith any longer. Vanhin

Church leaders can perform civil marriages which are not priesthood ordinances. For example, our bishop when I was kid, married my brother and his wife, who were not ready for the temple yet but wanted to be married. It was a simple ceremony performed under civil laws in our meeting house. The Church recognizes legal and lawful marriage for purposes of adhering to the law of chastity. Many old members and converts are married legally and not yet sealed to one another. Regards, Vanhin

I would not have any problems attending a marriage or a religious ceremony of people of other faiths, even those of non-Christians. I would observe the rituals with great interest and respect. Regards, Vanhin

Although I am late, I'd like to chime in. When you enter a contract in the secular world, there is a token involved, such as a handshake, a person's word, and document that is singed, etc... The act binds those involved, often legally, and they are held accountable for the performance of their end of the bargain. A covenant with the Lord is no different. The covenants we make with God are all associated with holy priesthood ordinances that we call saving ordinances. The ordiances, or holy acts, that serve as tokens of our covenants with God do not save us, and neither do our good works by themselves. Salvation comes by way of the Atonement, and is specifically accessible through the making and keeping of covenants by proper priesthood authority. When we enter one of these covenants by the administration of priesthood authority, our names are recorded both here on earth and in heaven. If we are true and faithful to the covenant, our name will remain on the books, and the Lord is bound to uphold his end of the bargain. Though there is real power in righteousness, by making and keeping sacred covenants, there is no magic involved. We are bound to the Lord and He to us by divine contract. It's a legal matter. That is what being sealed is all about. Now, the nature of this ordinance consists in the power of the priesthood, by the revelation of Jesus Christ, wherein it is granted that whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Or, in other words, taking a different view of the translation, whatsoever you record on earth shall be recorded in heaven, and whatsoever you do not record on earth shall not be recorded in heaven; for out of the books shall your dead be judged, according to their own works, whether they themselves have attended to the ordinances in their own propria persona, or by the means of their own agents, according to the ordinance which God has prepared for their salvation from before the foundation of the world, according to the records which they have kept concerning their dead. (D&C 128:8) The Father made a promise to us, before the foundation of this world, that if we would enter into these contracts during our mortal experience, of our own free wills, and remain true to them, that we would be exalted! That is the nature of the "Master Covenant" we call the new and everlasting covenant. It encompasses all covenants and contracts made with the Lord, and when we have been true and faithful to this covenants, and sufficiently proven to the Lord that we will obey him at all times and in all places, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise unto eternal life, thus allowing the Father to fulfil his promise to us. Of the final ordinances that must be performed in mortality (marriage/sealing), the Lord revealed the following: ...for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified. (D&C 132:63) Sincerely, Vanhin

It still is a badge of honor for us to be who we are, and we are separated from the rest of the Christian world in many fundamental ways. However, it ever was a falsehood for opponents of our Church to claim that we are not "Christians", as in disciples of Christ, or that we worship a different Jesus, not the God of the Bible. That is what we as a Church are responding to. We're not trying to be more mainstream. We are responding to the criticism that we are not "Christians". We are in very deed Christians! Also, we have always shared a common morality with other Christians. Values such as family, honesty, faith, hard work, and virtue, to rattle of a few, have always been a part of this Church and shared by other Christians. So what are we supposedly doing different? The Church as a whole is engaged in embracing truth - pure truth. We do focus on orthodoxy more these days than perhaps in earlier days, when speculation was openly rampant, even among Church leaders, but the basic principles and ordinances of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ have endured and the pure doctrine refined. That's one of the basic missions of the Church, to perfect the Saints. It would be a huge failure if we as a body of believers never progressed at all towards that Biblical unity of faith... And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: (Eph. 4:11-13) Regards, Vanhin

The Church does not have an official position on how the first man on this Earth, Adam, was created. The details of Adam's creation have not been revealed to us yet, and thus are not found in our canon. But there are some theories we know to be false. For example, can any latter-day saint disagree with the statement that "Adam was not created into existence out of nothing (ex nihilo)"? No, because we know from the scriptures that both spirit and physical element is eternal (D&C 93:29, 33). So, we can agree on the falseness of some theories, without knowing exactly how Adam came to be. That said, the Church has made it's position clear that man did not "develop from lower orders of animal creation", calling those ideas "the theories of men" being in opposition to things we do know from scripture. It is held by some that Adam was not the first man upon this earth and that the original human being was a development from lower orders of the animal creation. These, however, are the theories of men. The word of the Lord declared that Adam was “the first man of all men” (Moses 1:34), and we are therefore in duty bound to regard him as the primal parent of our race. It was shown to the brother of Jared that all men were created in the beginning after the image of God; whether we take this to mean the spirit or the body, or both, it commits us to the same conclusion: Man began life as a human being, in the likeness of our Heavenly Father. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Origin of Man) A premise in that statement is that Adam was the first man. If Adam was a development of lower orders of animal creation, then he cannot be considered the "first man" - rendering the scriptures false. That is the main point of that statement in the document authored by the First Presidency in 1909, and reaffirmed in 2002 by the following statement. In the early 1900s, questions concerning the Creation of the earth and the theories of evolution became the subject of much public discussion. In the midst of these controversies, the First Presidency issued the following in 1909, which expresses the Church’s doctrinal position on these matters. A reprinting of this important First Presidency statement will be helpful as members of the Church study the Old Testament this year. (LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Origin of Man) It cannot be said by FairLDS, or anyone else that the Church has no position on the matter, when they clearly do by way of official proclamation. Also, it is consistently taught in scriptures and in Church publication that Adam was the first man, and that he did not develop from lower orders of animal creation. Where the Church does not have an official position is in the question of "How did God create the first man on earth, if not by organic evolution?" We simply do not know yet, officially. However, I do believe that God answers prayers, and that by the Holy Ghost we can know the truth of all things. I can produce scripture after scripture to back that up. So, to the OP, I say continue to seek truth from God on matters, even such as this, and be willing to accept the answers and timeframe that the Lord provides, and don't discount what the Lord has already revealed to us through modern prophets. Regards, Vanhin

That diagram is funny. Reminds me of old Sesame Street - "One of these things just doesn't belong here". Can you pick which one? Regards, Vanhin

RedPhoenix, Not to inject myself too much into your conversation with SpamLDS, but I'm not aware of any LDS who openly ridiclule the concept of "born again". This is a concept that in integral to our understanding of the first principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now, we do reject doctrine that teaches that man has no moral agency, or free will, or that we are not capable of good works. You seem have a little contradiction in your beliefs. If there is "absolutely nothing that you, or I, can do to attain exaltation (you mean forgiveness?) of our sins", then how can your "acceptance" of the "Blood of Christ" be necessary for salvation? On one hand you are saying we can do nothing, and on the other you are saying we must accept. Is accepting not something a person does? Vanhin

Well, Seminarysnoozer, it shouldn't surprise you that there are things that you cannot comprehend in this temporal state, things that are nevertheless true. However, that shouldn't prevent you from believing in things that are true. Be satisfied that God comprehends all things, and we will too, when we are quickened. He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. (D&C 88:41) Forever, and ever... My rule of thumb is to just believe the scriptures, whether I comprehend them or not. Things don't have to be understood temporally, as our temporal comprehension is quite limited. Regards, Vanhin

Greek philosophy aside, things eternal, according to our scriptures, have "no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after" (see Abraham 3:18). And our scriptures make a distinction between time and eternity (D&C 39:22). If covenants are faithfully kept in this life, how long do you suppose you will be sealed to your wife? If the answer is forever and ever and ever, then marrige for time and all eternity means marriage for an endless amount of time. Otherwise you must believe your marriage comes to an end. Clearly the word "eternal" is sometimes used in scripture to describe things that exist in endless time. Regards, Vanhin