Vanhin

It's a matter of priesthood keys. If the bishop authorizes the boy to pass the sacrament, it is valid. Without the bishop's (or equivalent priesthood leader's) approval, no sacrament can be administered. About the Great Apostasy, one might wonder how it could have happened with the priesthood so proliferated throughout the ancient Church. The keys of the priesthood, or the loss thereof, is the answer. The chain of authority from the Lord to the individual priesthood bearer was broken. On a side note. In a recent thread most were condemning a poor fellow who supposedly had a WoW issue, yet he had a temple recommend and attended the temple. He didn't receive the same charity as the boy in question on this thread. Is the sacrament not holy enough to cause concern? Regards, Vanhin

Like others have said, for us "priest" is a specific priesthood office of the Aaronic priesthood. But if by priest you mean "minister" then yes, all LDS priesthood holders are priests in that sense. As a missionary in Finland we would occasionally introduce ourselves as priests of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, though our actual priesthood office was elder. In that sense we meant we were ministers of the Church. But we don't really use the term priest like that amongst ourselves. Regards, Vanhin

I agree with the author that the 1960's America happen to be in sync, culturally, with Mormons. Much of American music and society in 1962 was in sync — in a way perhaps never before or since — with the buttoned-down world of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Suburbs and large, baby-boom families were in vogue, and that made the Mormons, who’d fled to Utah to escape persecution in the 1840s, look more like everybody else than they ever had. Vanhin

A recent article from the New York Times brought my attention back to something I had wondered about before. It seems like in the early 60's, before the sexual revolution, Mormonism seemed more mainstream than ever before or after... Here's a snippet from the article. Several historians said the brief, shimmering moment of the Tabernacle Choir in cold-warrior mode also captured something about the nation itself. Much of American music and society in 1962 was in sync — in a way perhaps never before or since — with the buttoned-down world of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Suburbs and large, baby-boom families were in vogue, and that made the Mormons, who’d fled to Utah to escape persecution in the 1840s, look more like everybody else than they ever had. “Mormonism seemed to fit with what America perceived itself to be at that moment,” said Walter P. Reeve, an associate professor of history at the University of Utah who teaches a course on Utah in the cold war. Music technology played a role in the choir’s — and thus the church’s — march toward the mainstream. The first recordings, using giant sound-collecting horns suspended from the ceiling of the tabernacle, were released in 1910. A Sunday radio broadcast began in 1929, mixing choral swell with what church authorities call “the spoken word” of scriptural message. A recording contract with the Columbia label in the late 1950s expanded the choir’s repertory toward secular standards; its “Battle Hymn of the Republic” won a Grammy Award in 1959. (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/arts/music/22choir.html?_r=1&sq=mormon%20tabernacle%20choir&st=cse&scp=2&pagewanted=all) Those were the good old days, when every American was indistinguishable from their fellow American Mormons in many apparent ways. Any thoughts on the matter, especially with some of the threads we've had asserting that Mormons are just now trying to become mainstream? Regards, Vanhin

Earlier Saturday, Iran's hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad promised a global response if his country is attacked. "Our options will have no limits... They will touch the entire planet," he said. (Israel says Iranian reactor use 'totally unacceptable' - Israel News, Ynetnews) Clearly Israel shouldn't be the only nation thinking about taking action against Iran... Vanhin

The current (or recent) prophet has not given any reason for the ban. The opinion of the First Presidency in 1949, which was quoted, could very well be the reason, we simply do not know. Whereas, the Brethren have explicitly denounces Adam-God (see Church doctrine/Repudiated concepts/Adam-God - FAIRMormon). However, in the statement from 1949, they are referring to an established and correct doctrine as it applies to fore-ordination and election. For example, we know from modern revelation that some individuals are placed in favorable conditions here on earth based on their faithfulness in the pre-mortal world, in order to fulfill the missions assigned to them here. Based on premortal worthiness, God chose those who would be the seed of Abraham and the house of Israel and become the covenant people (Deut. 32: 7-9; Abr. 2: 9-11). These people are given special blessings and duties so that they can bless all the nations of the world (Rom. 11: 5-7; 1 Pet. 1: 2; Alma 13: 1-5; D&C 84: 99). However, even these chosen ones must be called and elected in this life in order to gain salvation. (see Guide to the Scriptures: Election , Guide to the Scriptures: Foreordination) For that to be true, which it is, the opposite must be true for those who were less-valiant. Now, some took that doctrine too far, and opined that there were "fence-sitters" in the pre-mortal existence. Even Brigham Young disagreed with that, though he was clearly speculating about other details concerning this issue. "No, they were not, there were no neutral [spirits] in Heaven at the time of the rebellion, all took sides.... All spirits are pure that came from the presence of God. The posterity of Cain are black because he committed murder. He killed Abel and God set a mark upon his posterity. But the spirits are pure that enter their tabernacles...." (Journal History, 25 Dec. 1869, citing "Wilford Woodruff's Journal."). Regards, Vanhin

Right along the lines of what Gabelba was saying, our spirits are actually children of God the Father. Latter-day Saints believe that literally. Exaltation is the term we use when talking about our full potential as children of God. This mortal life is part of God's plan for us, which allows us, if we will choose it, to reach that full potential. Those who are exalted will be allowed to return to the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and there our family relationships will continue forever. We will continue to progress until we become like our Father. We will participate in his work of helping mankind reach this potential in the eternities, thereby glorifying his name forever. Regards, Vanhin

A great source to start with is the Guide to the Scriptures. Guide to the Scriptures: Second Coming of Jesus Christ Guide to the Scriptures: Signs of the Times Read all the associated scriptures, then do a couple of searches of the articles at lds.org narrowing the searches down to First Presidency and Apostles only. Also, a great source are the "Teachings of the Presidents of the Church" manuals that we have been using over the last few years. They have been awesome whenever I needed to find quotes that are in harmony with the established doctrine of the Church. You can get those from here. LDS.org - Melchizedek Priesthood Hope that helps. Regards, Vanhin

But God does not make mistakes. This practice was in effect for several generations of latter-day prophets and many of them prayed specifically about the ban during their tenure. Yet the Lord in his wisdom did not lift the ban until His own time. This wouldn't have been just some mistake, this would have indeed been "leading the Church astray" if it wasn't the will of the Lord. I don't believe the Lord would have allowed it to continue so long if it wasn't His will. We are talking about the priesthood after all, and the blessings of the temple being denied to a people of a specific lineage. Your assertions and speculations about it being a mistake is on par with those who speculated that the ban would never be lifted in this life time. You cannot just chalk this issue up as a mistake without challenging the validity of our modern prophets, mainly because it spanned generations of prophets and required specific revelation before it could be ended. I like to clarify the following whenever this issue comes up. The ban affected blacks of African decent (see Mormonism and racial issues/Blacks and the priesthood - FAIRMormon). No other race or lineage was affected. All other people of color were allowed to receive the priesthood and the blessings of the temple, including Australian aborigines. These two men, for example, would have been eligible if they were worthy: Two other things. 1) In ancient Israel, only male descendants of Levi were allowed to receive the Aaronic priesthood and participate in temple ordinances, excluding all other people, including other Israelites who depended on them for these priestly duties. Also, beyond that, only male descendants of Aaron were ordained as priests, and the only firstborn male descendants of Aaron were entitled to the office of high priest. (see Mormonism and racial issues/Blacks and the priesthood/Deny based on race - FAIRMormon) 2) The lineage of the Pharaohs in Egypt, apparently in ancient days did not have a right to the Priesthood according to the Book of Abraham. (See Reference Search: Abraham 1:26-27) My point? Is that it is not unheard of, for God to exclude a certain lineage from the priesthood, or restrict it only to a people of a certain lineage. I reject, wholesale, the notion that God allowed our prophets to perpetrate a mistake of this magnitude for so long. The ban was indeed the will of the Lord, we just don't know the reason for it. Regards, Vanhin

The historical record is not clear about the ban's institution, whether it was Joseph Smith or Brigham Young. It doesn't really matter to me which one instituted it, it is the same. Though the ban was lifted, the Lord has never provided a reason for the ban, and there is no apology for the ban either. There is no indication that the ban was unauthorized. Regards, Vanhin

What instance was that when the entire quorum fell away? Thanks, Vanhin

Your very first post... Welcome! It depends on what you mean by making out. How do you define making out?

Still leaves me very confused... I know you and I disagree about some things, but I wasn't aware that we disagreed about revelation and the proper line of authority. I am open to discussing the matter with you if you want to share an opposing point of view. That's what this thread is about... "false prophets" among members (and non-members) of the Church. Do you think that someone who has had their calling and election made sure is authorized to teach doctrines outside the official doctrine of the Church - beyond what the Lord has revealed through his prophet? If a moderator is needed, which up to this point none was needed (unless I missed something), I will let another moderator handle it since there would now obviously be a conflict of interest. Regards, Vanhin

And this one is one I like too. Vanhin

That's a good one jayanna. Here it is on youtube if you prefer that format. Vanhin

It was indeed in reference to that. That particular vein of "false prophets" pop up from time to time, and if they preach things outside of the established doctrine of the Church and claim to have special authority to do so because of a special revelatory experience, then I think we should be wary of them. Just in case this was the issue, I'm not saying one cannot have their calling and election made sure or that it is false doctrine. That it certainly is not. We should all be striving for that. However, even when that does happen to a person, and even if they are privileged to see things that have not been revealed generally, they are not authorized to preach those things outside of the established order of priesthood. In a nutshell, that was my point. But since Hemi has not articulated what exactly he took offense to, I can only speculate. Regards, Vanhin

Thanks yorkiebeebs!

I was using it in sense that it is a "veil of forgetfulness", meaning we don't have a direct recollection of all the things we learned in the pre-mortal existence, in order to protect us from sinning against the greater light - forcing us to rely on faith to gain a sure knowledge of eternal truths. In a way it goes hand in hand with the use of "veil" to symbolically represent the separation of man from God. See Guide to the Scriptures: Veil Regards, Vanhin

What? Did I say something wrong? Edit: You obviously disagree with me in a big sort of way, seeing that you flagged my post and are making reference to me being a moderator. Care to elaborate? Send me a PM if this is more than just a disagreement on what false prophets are, or some kind of personal issue. Regards, Vanhin

4. And avoid all those "members" going around teaching unorthodox doctrines because they think their "Second Anointing" gives them authority to do so. Vanhin

I'm actually going to start posting there soon. But here's the entire entry... in Finnish. Jumala, jumaluus Katso myös Herra; Iankaikkinen elämä; Ihminen: Ihmisestä voi tulla taivaallisen Isän kaltainen; Isä, taivaallinen; Jeesus Kristus; Korotus; Pyhä Henki. Jumaluuteen kuuluu kolme erillistä persoonaa: Jumala, iankaikkinen Isä; hänen Poikansa Jeesus Kristus ja Pyhä Henki. Me uskomme heistä jokaiseen (UK 1). Myöhempien aikojen ilmoituksesta tiedämme, että Isällä ja Pojalla on käsin kosketeltava liha- ja luuruumis ja että Pyhä Henki on henkipersoona vailla lihaa ja luuta (OL 130:22–23). Nämä kolme persoonaa ovat yhtä tarkoituksen ja opin täydellisessä ykseydessä ja sopusoinnussa (Joh. 17:21–23; 2. Nefi 31:21; 3. Nefi 11:27, 36). Isä Jumala: Sanalla Jumala tarkoitetaan yleensä Isää eli Elohimia. Häntä kutsutaan Isäksi, koska hän on meidän henkiemme Isä (Mal. 2:10; 4. Moos. 16:22; 27:16; Matt. 6:9; Ef. 4:6; Hepr. 12:9). Isä Jumala on maailmankaikkeuden korkein hallitsija. Hän on kaikkivaltias (1. Moos. 18:14; Alma 26:35; OL 19:1–3), kaikkitietävä (Matt. 6:8; 2. Nefi 2:24) ja läsnä kaikkialla Henkensä kautta (Ps. 139:7–12; OL 88:7–13, 41). Ihmiskunnalla on Jumalaan erityinen suhde, jonka ansiosta ihminen on eri asemassa kuin koko muu luomakunta: ihmiset ovat Jumalan henkilapsia (Ps. 82:6; 1. Joh. 3:1–3; OL 20:17–18). Merkintöjä Isän Jumalan ihmiselle ilmestymisestä tai puhumisesta on vain vähän. Pyhien kirjoitusten mukaan hän puhui Aadamille ja Eevalle (Moos. 4:14–31) ja esitteli Jeesuksen Kristuksen muutaman kerran (Matt. 3:17; 17:5; Joh. 12:28–29; 3. Nefi 11:3–7). Hän ilmestyi Stefanokselle (Ap. t. 7:55–56) ja Joseph Smithille (JS—H 17). Myöhemmin hän ilmestyi sekä Joseph Smithille että Sidney Rigdonille (OL 76:20, 23). Niille, jotka rakastavat Jumalaa ja puhdistavat itsensä hänen edessään, hän suo toisinaan etuoikeuden nähdä ja tietää omakohtaisesti, että hän on Jumala (Matt. 5:8; 3. Nefi 12:8; OL 76:116–118; 93:1). Jumalani, Jumalani, miksi hylkäsit minut? Mark. 15:34. Nämä miehet ovat Korkeimman Jumalan palvelijoita, Ap. t. 16:17. Me olemme Jumalan sukua, Ap. t. 17:28–29. Sinun tulee antaa sakramenttisi uhriksi Korkeimmalle, OL 59:10–12. Henok näki Jumalan luomat henget, Moos. 6:36. Pyhyyden Ihminen on hänen nimensä, Moos. 6:57. Poika Jumala: Nimellä Jehova eli Jahve eli Herra tunnettu Jumala on Poika, Jeesus Kristus (Jes. 12:2; 43:11; 49:26; 1. Kor. 10:1–4; 1. Tim. 1:1; Ilm. 1:8; 2. Nefi 22:2). Jeesus toimii Isän johdolla ja on täydellisessä sopusoinnussa hänen kanssaan. Kaikki ihmiset ovat hänen veljiään ja sisariaan, sillä hän on vanhin Elohimin henkilapsista. Joissakin pyhien kirjoitusten kohdissa hänestä käytetään sanaa Jumala. Pyhissä kirjoituksissa sanotaan esimerkiksi, että “Jumala loi taivaan ja maan” (1. Moos. 1:1), mutta Luojana oli itse asiassa Jeesus Isän Jumalan johdolla (Joh. 1:1–3, 10, 14; Hepr. 1:1–2). Herra sanoo olevansa Minä Olen, 2. Moos. 3:13–16. Minä yksin olen Herra [Jehova], ei ole muuta pelastajaa kuin minä, Jes. 43:11 (Jes. 45:23). Minä olen maailman valo, Joh. 8:12. Jo ennen kuin Abraham syntyi — minä olin, Joh. 8:58. Herra palvelee ihmisten keskuudessa tomumajassa, Moosia 3:5–10. Abinadi selitti, kuinka Kristus on Isä ja Poika, Moosia 15:1–4 (Et. 3:14). Herra ilmestyi Jeredin veljelle, Et. 3. Kuuntele Kristuksen, Herrasi ja Jumalasi, sanoja, Moroni 8:8. Jehova on sekä elävien että kuolleiden Tuomari, Moroni 10:34. Jeesus ilmestyi Joseph Smithille ja Sidney Rigdonille, OL 76:20, 23. Herra Jehova ilmestyi Kirtlandin temppelissä, OL 110:1–4. Jehova puhui Abrahamille, Abr. 1:16–19. Jeesus ilmestyi Joseph Smithille, JS—H 17. Pyhä Henki Jumala: Myös Pyhä Henki on Jumala, jota kutsutaan muiden samankaltaisten nimien ohella Hengeksi ja Jumalan Hengeksi. Pyhän Hengen avulla ihminen voi tuntea Isän Jumalan tahdon ja tietää, että Jeesus on Kristus (1. Kor. 12:3). Pyhä Henki neuvoo, mitä teidän on sanottava, Luuk. 12:12. Pyhä Henki on Puolustaja, Joh. 14:26 (Joh. 16:7–15). Jeesus antoi apostoleille käskyjä Pyhän Hengen voimalla, Ap. t. 1:2. Pyhä Henki todistaa Jumalasta ja Kristuksesta, Ap. t. 5:29–32 (1. Kor. 12:3). Myös Pyhä Henki todistaa meille, Hepr. 10:10–17. Pyhän Hengen voimalla te voitte tietää totuuden kaikesta, Moroni 10:5. Pyhä Henki on ilmoituksen henki, OL 8:2–3 (OL 68:4). (Asiahakemisto: Jumala, jumaluus) The Guide to the Scriptures in Finnish -> Pyhien kirjoitusten opas Vanhin

That said, might as well throw the rest of the GS entry out here. It pretty clearly spells it out complete with scripture references. God the Father: It is generally the Father, or Elohim, who is referred to by the title God. He is called the Father because he is the father of our spirits (Mal. 2: 10; Num. 16: 22; 27: 16; Matt. 6: 9; Eph. 4: 6; Heb. 12: 9). God the Father is the supreme ruler of the universe. He is all powerful (Gen. 18: 14; Alma 26: 35; D&C 19: 1-3), all knowing (Matt. 6: 8; 2 Ne. 2: 24), and everywhere present through his Spirit (Ps. 139: 7-12; D&C 88: 7-13, 41). Mankind has a special relationship to God that sets man apart from all other created things: men and women are God’s spirit children (Ps. 82: 6; 1 Jn. 3: 1-3; D&C 20: 17-18). There are few recorded instances of God the Father appearing to or speaking to man. The scriptures say that he spoke to Adam and Eve (Moses 4: 14-31) and introduced Jesus Christ on several occasions (Matt. 3: 17; 17: 5; John 12: 28-29; 3 Ne. 11: 3-7). He appeared to Stephen (Acts 7: 55-56) and Joseph Smith (JS-H 1: 17). Later he appeared to both Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon (D&C 76: 20, 23). To those who love God and purify themselves before him, God sometimes grants the privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves that he is God (Matt. 5: 8; 3 Ne. 12: 8; D&C 76: 116-118; 93: 1). My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Mark 15: 34. These men are the servants of the most high God, Acts 16: 17. We are the offspring of God, Acts 17: 28-29. Thou shalt offer thy sacraments unto the Most High, D&C 59: 10-12. Enoch beheld the spirits that God had created, Moses 6: 36. Man of Holiness is his name, Moses 6: 57. God the Son: The God known as Jehovah is the Son, Jesus Christ (Isa. 12: 2; 43: 11; 49: 26; 1 Cor. 10: 1-4; 1 Tim. 1: 1; Rev. 1: 8; 2 Ne. 22: 2). Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with him. All mankind are his brothers and sisters, for he is the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. Some scripture references refer to him by the word God. For example, the scripture says that “God created the heaven and the earth” (Gen. 1: 1), but it was actually Jesus who was the Creator under the direction of God the Father (John 1: 1-3, 10, 14; Heb. 1: 1-2). The Lord identified himself as I AM, Ex. 3: 13-16. I am the Lord [Jehovah], and beside me there is no savior, Isa. 43: 11 (Isa. 45: 23). I am the light of the world, John 8: 12. Before Abraham was, I am, John 8: 58. The Lord shall minister among men in a tabernacle of clay, Mosiah 3: 5-10. Abinadi explained how Christ is the Father and the Son, Mosiah 15: 1-4 (Ether 3: 14). The Lord appeared to the brother of Jared, Ether 3. Listen to the words of Christ your Lord and your God, Moro. 8: 8. Jehovah is the judge of the quick and the dead, Moro. 10: 34. Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, D&C 76: 20, 23. The Lord Jehovah appeared in the Kirtland Temple, D&C 110: 1-4. Jehovah spoke to Abraham, Abr. 1: 16-19. Jesus appeared to Joseph Smith, JS-H 1: 17. God the Holy Ghost: The Holy Ghost is also a God and is called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit, and the Spirit of God, among other similar names and titles. With the aid of the Holy Ghost, man can know the will of God the Father and know that Jesus is the Christ (1 Cor. 12: 3). The Holy Ghost will teach you what you should say, Luke 12: 12. The Holy Ghost is the Comforter, John 14: 26 (John 16: 7-15). Jesus gave commandments to the Apostles through the Holy Ghost, Acts 1: 2. The Holy Ghost bears witness of God and Christ, Acts 5: 29-32 (1 Cor. 12: 3). The Holy Ghost also is a witness to us, Heb. 10: 10-17. By the power of the Holy Ghost you may know the truth of all things, Moro. 10: 5. The Holy Ghost is the spirit of revelation, D&C 8: 2-3 (D&C 68: 4). (Guide to the Scriptures: God, Godhead) Regards, Vanhin

Yes Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. (D&C 20:28) From our Guide to the Scriptures There are three separate persons in the Godhead: God, the Eternal Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost. We believe in each of them (A of F 1: 1). From latter-day revelation we learn that the Father and the Son have tangible bodies of flesh and bone and that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit, without flesh and bone (D&C 130: 22-23). These three persons are one in perfect unity and harmony of purpose and doctrine (John 17: 21-23; 2 Ne. 31: 21; 3 Ne. 11: 27, 36). (see Guide to the Scriptures: God, Godhead) Regards, Vanhin

He spanked him... My mission president used to grab his belt as he called in another missionary to be interviewed and said, "Come on in Elder So-and-so, I still have some belt left for you." Vanhin

And I would point out the source doesn't always have to be on the Internet. But at least include a reference to the source, so that if someone wanted to look it up they could. However, the orthodox doctrine of the Church, as taught in the scriptures, is easy to establish from official online sources. If it is a doctrine that is consistently taught in Church publications, you will find it on lds.org... So, I always look there for references, and even then I stick to curriculum, scripture helps (like the Guide to the Scriptures), and talks by prophets and apostles. I rarely quote any one else besides General Authorities (mainly apostles), unless they are subject matter experts on archeology or some other field like that, and their quote is credible. Regards, Vanhin