Islander

There are other practical reasons why the KJV is likely to be the most accurate version of the bible. It was the longest, most systematic and detailed translation effort to date. It was also carried out by the largest number of linguists in committee across a significant number of years. No other group of translators can say the same.

Good people can be misled. I believe that was the case for the Nobel Peace Prize. I saw no foundation for it. Gore advocated, very loudly, for a particular cause but there is no evidence that he actually pioneered technology, solutions or achieved any major benchmark in the field in question. What really burns me up is that he promoted a "solution" that made him a multi-millionaire in the process. That was my point.

I agree with you on this last point. It makes absolutely no sense, however, to push US-based business to the brink of bankruptcy with ever more stringent environmental laws when developing countries do absolutely nothing to curb pollution. That is why the US refused to sign the Kioto Protocol. It does make sense to protect the environment but it has to be a worldwide effort. That level of support and required cooperation has never existed in the history of humanity, even when the world had been on the eve of extinction. I seriously doubt we'll come together over an issue as intangible and highly debated as global warming. I hope to be proven wrong, though.

The symbolism has been there since the beginning. According to God's instructions, The Tabernacle In The Wilderness faced east. Then, the Temple in Jerusalem, which replaced the Tabernacle In the Wilderness, faced east, toward The Mount Of Olives which is where the Savior will appear. After the Return of Jesus Christ, "living waters" (physical, and spiritual i.e. the Holy Spirit, will flow from the Temple then in existence, which will also face east. BTW, Arabs pray in the direction of Mecca not just the east. It so happened that we (westerners) heard them asking "where is the east" as they came and conquered the western part of the world.

Al Gore is a hypocrite. His company, Generation Investment Management came up with the 21 century ponzy scheme of "carbon emission offset" credits that has taken in million of dollars in "offsets" allegedly designed to reduce the CO2 foot print of certain companies. "Give me money and I will plant trees" with no verifiable mechanisms and a shady accounting, to say the least. All he does is blowing his own horn and lining his own pocket while singing the hymn of global warming. UK-based with accounts in Luxembourg. Right. I'll drop it right here for now before my blood preasure goes up.

Western societies have continued to evolve along a very dangerous path and is being driven by utopic social theories that are light-years away from the history of human existence. UN research show that in other countries as much as 92% of marriage age people actually get married before age 27. Not so in the US, for example. Things are actually getting worse every year but people do not seem to be alarmed. Interesting. Dating and marriage should not be so complicated. The subject is delicate enough so I will be stopping here, I think.

In the general sense, every culture, including the church, has time honored built-in mores and values, social norms, and thus expectation which in fact is what happens in every social group. When a person chooses or circumstances dictate that a path different and away from the norm be followed it is going to be noticed. It is unfortunately unavoidable. It becomes difficult to deal with because of the internal tension and cognitive dissonance it creates. There is the socially (do not forget doctrinal) expected behavior which is almost like a right of passage for young men in the church; and then there is what the young man chooses to do or is forced to do on account of certain circumstances. Whatever it is, I think people function within the socio-cultural norms (it could be outside of Utah) and such expectations are part of the environment and thus they will always be prone to ask such questions. Sorry, tough deal.

I read his "book" and other testimonies some time ago. I also saw a short documentary that is no longer available from CBS on his experience as a "Mormon". It smelled as grandstanding to me. He did not actually convert. He found additional truths that resonated and he used his exposure to the BoM to call the attention of others about "the faults in understanding of the current Christian doctrine" as he realized while reading the BoM. He NEVER address the issue of the prophetic messenger and revelatory nature of the Book. He NEVER acknowledges that if the message is true, so is the messenger, and the conduit thru which the message was revealed and everything else God revealed at the time!! I think he was just trying to grow his congregation and sell a book.

My friend with all due respect, the "evidence" for most of what the bible says actually happened in that narrow, dry and priori, inhospitable stretch of land, we call Israel is so slim that archeologist remains at odds with where such and such city was located even today. There is but a handful of extra biblical accounts noted here and there throughout the ME but that is about it. There is no evidence, none, of any of the prophets of the bible. Todate, most archeoogists believe the the exodous never took place since they have found NOTHING that could support that a million plus people lived and traveled together for 40 years in a relatively small region. So, your assertion that you rely on evidence I think is not well founded. The "evidence" is sparse and controversial to say the list. You must, therefore rely a lot more on what the Spirit reveals to you than "evidence."

LOL...just thinking that you call it a gift...I would think it a nightmare if I had some spirit bothering me and trying to tell me stuff. But anyhow, to contact, encourage or to encourage contact from "familiar spirits" 6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. • • • 27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them. Just a couple of quotes from the OT.

I am not sure of the above. But this is where going to the Temple frequently pays off. You can, on the very early or very late sessions, talk to the workers and even the president of the Temple itself about ALL these issues. To work in the temple in ANY capacity you must be an endowed member in good standing. Being general cleaning, food delivery or inside maintenance. I suggest that curiosity and sacredness do not match. I think out of reverence we should avoid these matters since it serve no specific purpose other than to satisfy someone's curiosity, which in my book is not a worthwhile reason to discuss the subject. Just my opinion.

Hummm...you may be wrong on that. According to the scriptures, God plainly states that it is wrong.

Moshka, that was deep. My insights into anger do not reach such analytical levels, but, you probably know what you are talking about. I heard my grandma say many times that anger "is not an emotion but a reaction." Meaning, something happened that actually causes pain but we react in anger. Not need be so but we "learn" to respond angrily because, like Moshka said, it provides a lot of energy (be it destructive) and the drive to take action and do...stuff, retaliate, defend ourselves, attack in revenge, protest, whatever. I suggest that developing some insight into what transpired would probably go a long way to resolve the anger issue. And I am not referring to the memory of the event, but to what "actually" happened that very likely caused pain but lthe earned response was anger. Acknowledging such and attempting to cope or resolve the painful event often tends to decrease our need for an angry response. Just my two cents but I could be wrong, of course.

Sexual sin and unmorality has a grip on society greater than chemical dependency. But it is quite legal and there is no apparent economic loss or visible outward/social impact away from the family. Thus it is ruled a "private affair". This is the true reason why they want God out of everything. He interferes with people's "social/sexual agendas" I grew up in a small island in the Caribbean so we had no porn in any shape or form that I was aware of. When I came to California in the 90's to go to college the "Pussy Cat Theaters" were still around, but they had an aura of filthiness and obscurity that was truly overwhelming. I never knew of anybody that went there. In many hours I spent half a block away from one of those establishments while waiting for my bus to go to school every day I never saw anyone go inside there. But now with the internet it is everywhere. I am just amazed.

I can appreciate that PC. I think, however, that in your assertion that "Christians recognized that without the leading of the Holy Spirit, Bible study, even with fluent understanding of the original languages, will be fruitless" you are making a huge concession. Most other Christians that I had encountered in almost 10 years never heard of praying for discernment from the Holy Ghost in order to understand the things of God. Granted, I do not know that many people to generalize, but I think you are within the few enlightened minority that truly understands the workings of God among His children. And I will not bother you with the translation issue any more. I think I understand what you are trying to say...Besides, I think you are a pretty cool dude.

Friend, I have been following and answering most of your posts since you came onto the site. I am still, I must confess, mystified by your presence in the site. Many, as you say, have expressed the view that you tend to be somewhat contentious and argumentative in your posts. Assuming that we reject the generalization, at least you would have to contemplate the notion that there has to be some truth in that statement. What seems to be the norm is that you ask a question in juxtaposition to a certain LDS doctrinal element. Often 3-4 people answer with multiple examples and explanations of it. Your reply is always in opposition and espousing a preconceived theological view according to your brand and sectarian take on Christianity. You defend this view vociferously rather than search and study the foundation for the LDS view. I, in particular, have suggested many times for you to sit and read certain definitions as to familiarize yourself with the LDS frame of reference. You obviously have not done so. Well, what can I say in regards to prayer? The essence of God is truth and light, it is intelligence. ALL truth belongs to him and has been created by Him to remain unencumbered by man. We do not discover anything, we become aware of that which God has set up from the beginning in its own sphere. If we aspire to know God's truth, after we have searched diligently the things that we have been given, we must pray to Him to confirm thru the Spirit if these things are true. Spiritual things require spiritual discernment. For us it is not, it can not be, just an intellectual pursue. That may seem like a foreign concept to you but that is how we arrived to a testimony of the truthfulness of Gospel. There are no originals for the biblical texts but you seem to have taken them at face value and added your own theological spin to what the text actually say. Either it is an exercise in social conformity or you have prayed and received a witness that the bible is a true account of the things of God. It is no different for us. We have read and studied the Book of Mormon and have received a witness from the Holy Ghost that the things contained terein are true, that Joseph was indeed a prophet of God and that God caused the revelation that brought about the restoration of things previously known but lost over time. How else would you know? The choice is yours. If you are truly trying to learn and understand you MUST first study, search, ponder and then pray with the intent of knowing the truth. Scholarly research will never result in a testimony. Actually most biblical scholars are not necessarily religious people. Go figure. Beyond that, look into your heart and ask yourself why you are here in this site and devoted so much time to this activity. It will reveal many things, especially bout yourself.

Welcome Zooba: I am glad you came. Lots of very friendly and funny people here. I am sorry you had some problems in the past dealing with "fake religions". As far as organized, well, we are quite an organized bunch. God is a God of order and He has sent us on His errand and we must obey. Organization is just so that every one knows what it needs to do and it is primarily about serving others. So we won't trample over each others toes He makes assignments and areas of responsibilities for those. Beyond that, we are here to help you in any way we can, support you if you need it and encourage you to seek, pray and inquire of the Lord what He wold have you do. Welcome

PC - I think we are going to split the difference in this one as well. In a way, these new "translations" use ONLY the best available information, theological bias, sectarian influence and consensus to "come up" with a version of the document in question. The evidence is that A Dominican and an Episcopalian will come up with variances of the exact same text. I was just discussing the issue with a casual travel companion on a recent trip. The word "saints" appears dozens of times in both the OT and the NT. It means the elect, consecrated, set apart, dedicated, part of and selected. It was a common designation for the faithful, the members of the congregation, the elect of God and those dedicated to serve Him. In summary, the members of the church!! That meaning and context all but disappeared under RCC influence. Ancient Rabis fell in the same trap. They substituted scholarly pursue of the Law of Moses (the creation of the Mishnah and the Talmud) for the revelation of God. They discarded prophesy and faith for the outward performance and regulatory observance of the commandment. They elevated the "study and research" of the Torah and equated it with the worship of God. The last issue; no prophet is ever believed in his time. My favorite example: Jeremiah was in jail (accused of blasphemy against the king!!) while the Babylonians were blasting thru the walls of Jerusalem. Oh, that after walking the streets for a couple of years, halfway naked, warning the people and calling them to repentance.

A couple of more cents: The DSS offer the most complete and early dated (except the book of Ruth) OT library to date. Some early Greek versions of the NT books have surfaced in the last 100 years with copies of the Gospels and some of the letters of the Apostles. Some of these documents on papyrus that can be dated to the first 300 years AD. Other than scholarly debate and interest, textual variances found in these documents have proved to be of no significant theological variances from the source material used for the translation of the KJV. I find suspect any suggestion to change the language of the scriptures based on modern bias and theo-socio-political agendas. I think advocating for a g"ender neutral description" of deity evidenced such agendas at work.

CEO Compensation HAS been regulated for a very long time. The board of Directors of those companies submit and disclose the CEO pay every year. The shareholders can vote up or down the item on the general stakeholders meeting. The stock options were written 5-10 years ago and they came due now. So they are cashing in. During the high flying years of the Real Estate bonanza all the mortgage company's CEO had fat comp packages that just happen to become news these days. The same with all the other F500 companies. The economy slowed down and a sector of it got hit. Well, that is the price of capitalism. Let's not whine about it now. When RE agents, notaries, mortgage brokers, appraisers and all the other folks (I know some of them) were getting fat during those years nobody complained. Just a thought.

You have to love this guy!!! Elegance and elloquence. I suggested earlier to the original post that asked the question to spend some time reading on lds.org on baptism.

One of the pitfalls of modern translations is the tendency to attempt to "modernize" the language based on the opinion of the translator. Two hundred years ago the word "wonderful" had a very different meaning than it does now. I have read some of the newer translations in several languages side by side with the KJV and they are all suspect, Spanish being absolutely the worse; the original translation of RV being already quite bad IMO. I will stick with the KJV. I think the language used in the OT is quite beautiful in trying to mimic Hebrew poetry.

Maybe because I am a convert and the term "Mormon" seems to me like a misnomer. It would be like being called a "Paulin" or "Johanite" on account of one of the Gospel writers. Or, even better, a "Jamesite" for the KJV. I truly don't care much...Sadly, thre is a lot of negative stereotyping attached to it. It is subsiding, I think.

hehehehehe...LOL...really loud. No offense, but that was precisely my problem when I was looking for a church. EVERY one had staked out a "theological" position instead of a "logical" one and they wanted me to accepted it without questioning it. Yes, the Gospel requires some study to grasp time lines, context issues and the political environment that at times shapes those issues. But the basic doctrine: Who God is, who Jesus is, why He came, what he did and why and died; that He resurrected and what that brought about and what we need to do to follow him needs no interpretation or theological training!! It is all there in black and white. The word "regeneration" appears twice in the NT and one of them related to the resurrection. I think we could describe baptism using any other adjective for the MANY other things it does and means beyond regeneration. This is one of those "theological" hangups rather than explicit and transparent doctrine. Just my thoughts

Angels are not to be confused with spirits. THe distinxtion in teh bible is clear.