Islander

I asked elsewhere the same question about the motivations and drives of those that come to this forum. They had no questions, they are not really interested in a genuine sense. They seem to be driven by the spirit of contention. I am not saying that your intent is such. I was just thinking out loud. Your premise that prophets are not needed is not sustainable even from the biblical standpoint. The issue here is that you do not understand the role of the prophet in the kingdom of God. If prophets would not have been needed after Moses the Lord would not have sent any other prophet. In fact, nothing was added to the Torah after that but prophets were required or Israel would have drifted into apostasy soon after and wiped out for sure. Following you logic then ible would consist ONLY of the GTorah and you my friend would either be a Jew or a pagan since you would not have know about Christ. You can not visualize the Savior clearly from the Torah. You actually need ALL the other prophets and the Gospels to see where salvation comes from. If you were a Jew you would have rejected the Savior as a heretic just like the rest of the "smart" Pharisees that needed no more revelation and scriptures. After the Savior revelation did not stop. The letters of the apostles and John's revelation are just examples that the word of the Lord continued to flow thru His servants. You have taken a very pharisee-like attitude. They likewise felt the Torah was the beginning and the end of revelation and the word of God. You know they were mistaken. Knowledge and information acquisition for the sake of just gathering facts is a useless exercise. Reading the Book of Mormon will not benefit you in any way if you already decided that there is no new revelation, that there are no modern prophets, and in the remote possibility that there are. you say you do not really need them. I suggest that you may find other activities more fulfilling and productive than spending time here.

LOL...very loud. I guess I understand a few things now. Elphaba, carry one. Do your thing.

I think the issue here is being able to make a clear distinction between a bona fide acceptance of something (whatever that is) and the testimony borne of the Spirit that something is indeed from God and not of man. People will accept anything; that there are UFO roaming the planet, that Elvis is still walking around in Memphis or that Muhammad was a prophet. Such assertions do not require anything other than a person weighting in his/her mind the account of others and decide that he/she will adhere to such proposition. In short, that is not a testimony but the acceptance at face value of an idea. At issue is the definition of what is being presented (the BoM), its origin and reality. Knowing with certainty that the BoM is indeed revelation from God and that Joseph was a prophet and that the priesthood power and authority of God were once again given by Him to act in His behalf can not be a reflective exercise. It has to be (the truth thereof) ascertained as well as revelation thru the Spirit or otherwise is meaningless. It would be like me saying that "I recognize the constitution but I will still make a choice about what laws to obey and what acts of government to recognize as legitimate and disregard the rest." You will find yourself in prison sooner than the following weekend with that thinking. You may not agree, personally, with a certain doctrine and that is a different story. But the crux of the issue is whether what happened in that gove to Joseph took place or not.

Welcome back. I am not sure what caused your inactivity but I hope you can regain your faith and strength to continue to learn and grow in the Gospel. Wish you the absolute best and look forward to lending a hand if needed.

This is a subject worth researching in detail and perhaps even developing an inquiry scope for a thesis. I seriously doubt that it has similitude in other religious tradition. Here is an LDS forum, with very explicit and publicly stated purposes, where the expectation is for those perhaps of other faith seeking information about LDS religion and traditions, or members hoping to share and exchange experiences and knowledge seek and congregate. What I have found, very surprisingly, is that a very significant group of participants are no longer members, seriously inactive, atheists, of other faiths but not seriously seeking to understand but to offer a counterpoint to LDS doctrine or simply to showcase their own brand of Christianity. I am not a psychologist, but I am sure one of them would find these conflicting dynamics fascinating! People engaged, compelled by an unknown drive to participate in (the forum) something they admittedly want no part of (LDS religion), they decided of their own volition to abandon or simply believe otherwise not to be true! But they spend hours literally engaged in the exchange. I am just beside myself!!

Welcome jstn1040: Yeah, after sacrament we have Sunday School and a third hour dedicated to study in groups as well. You will go with the brethren and gather with the priesthood. A note: in ancient Israel, most people did not live in Jerusalem. But if you happened to live with three days-travel time then you would come and offer sacrifices several times per year. A visit to Beit HaMikdash or the Holy House took several hours. For ones, there may be several hundred people trying to offer sacrifice that day as well. Afterwards, you would go to the courtyard and pray for a half an hour or so by yourself and then meet your wife, if you were married (who was on a different courtyard) at the gate. On the Sabbath you would go to the synagogue at sundown for 2-3 hours, go home and eat lightly and go back several times during the night depending on the time of the year, how many children you had, their ages and the like. So, the Christians in the Roman empire had a "light version" of the Sabbath. I think there is evidence that the apostles did not want to burden the rest of the disciples and the saints with long meetings and rules and preferred to concentrate on the faith building tasks of reading the scriptures, preaching to them and caring for the poor and the weak. Yes, it is a bit longer than your typical RC mass.

Feeling frustrated on the face of such statements is a human reaction rather than a spiritual one. The Savior said: “In the world ye shall have tribulation.” (John 16:33.). The apostle Paul referred to a "thorn in the flesh" that afflicted him thus he went to the Lord for relief three times. And the Lord said to him: "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor 12:9. I understand that aspirations and dreams are frustrated by the harsh realities and challenges we face. The Lord is aware of them and seeking comfort, solace and strength in Him is our only choice. The alternative, almost always, would be suggested by the devil and thus contrary to the will of God. My own personal favorite: "And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good." D&C 127:7 So, my friend, DO hang in there. You will be fine and the Lord will be your support and know that the Savior endured for you and me what no other mortal being could have. My grandmother said to me once, "...know my son, that one day your faith will be the one thing to save you from certain death." And it did. My prayers are with you.

Hello friend: Welcome to the forum. Look forward to seeing your posts and feel free to question and inquire. By the way, going to church with your friends will give you a chance to see that we are all normal (whatever than means) people after all. In places like NY likely to have lots of converts or people like you and me that did not have a religion before or were searching for something more. Promise, they will not hold you down and dunk you into the baptismal fount....:) You should go the with your friends to the chapel on Sunday and ask for a copy of the Book of Mormon. There is something special about flipping thru the pages of a book that the computer screen fails to provide, to me at least. Again, welcome.

Gideon was called as a prophet at that time. Man has always rationalized and attempted to second-guess God. MOre than 400 years passed Malachi to the coming of the Savior. Because Jesus was from a very poor family, he had no rabinical training, and he interpreted the Torah in a completely different way they called him a heretic, sinner, crazy, that he was possessed and ultimately crucified Him. Out of of the "smart people in the whole Israel only Rabi Gamalieil allowed for the possibility that indeed Jesus could be sent by God. It goes to show.

Hello humbleone: That is an interesting nic for a gnostic. Welcome to our forum. I think it would be interesting for you to find out precisely what drives your "curiosity". Is it the historicity of the church and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon? It is that you are beginning to wonder about the existence of a GOD? Or is it that you have never heard about the LDS church and you just want to know about its history and traditions within the context of American history? The kind of information you seek can be found in diverse places but also depends on your motivations for seeking it, in the first place. I am sure that you will find just about everything you look for at the church website at lds.org as well as the other resources mentioned above by other posters. Also, feel free to ask and inquire. There are lots of quite smart and informed people in the forum that I am sure can answer just about any question you may have.

Good insight. It is critical that you understand that your Father in Heaven loves you unconditionally not because of what you do or don't but because of who you are!! He already knows everything about you thus the point of the exercise is for you to trust in Him and come to Him for help, support, guidance, strength and everything else you may stand in need of. Have no fear, just bare your soul to Him and watch what happens!

I tend to agree with Dr. T. The book describes, sometimes in numbing detail, all the events but also launches in some wild speculations based on some very thin "evidence" if you ask me. It is a good blow by blow and historical account. I think where it fails is in painting a clear image of the state of mind and the psychology of wart and siege afflicting the saints at the time. In my own personal experience, most human beings can be driven to commit unthinkable acts of violence if the environmental factors are "right". There is significant evidence that group think and collective reasoning become quite dangerous under duress, extreme psychological conditions and perceived threat. What happened at Mountain Meadows can not be justified under any circumstances, but it can certainly be explained in accurate historical context. The book did not dig deep enough in that respect, I thought.

Traveler: I am not sure about your question. I would just add that it is different to cast out devils and dismiss them asap, than to seek them out, ask them questions, court them in order to divine the future, know things and, specially, lucre with such activities. If you look at "familiar spirits" in the bible you will not find one instance where God says it is OK. On the contrary.

Hello Sky: I am sorry for the struggle before you and the difficult road ou had to travel. I can only imagine the despair and the sense of isolation. It is obvious that together with your spiritual wellbeing you MUST address the emotional aspects of your life. It seem to me that you are quite fragile emationally given that you engaged in sexual activity just on a chance encounter (unplanned I mean). It is obvious that your needs for acceptance, companionship, love and intimacy completely overwhelmed you. I am not sure about what your bishop is going to counsel you but you have to get help. Please, know that however difficult the road ahead, you must travel it to reclaim your portion of the Atonement. Hard as it may look, you have to overcome these challenges before you. They are designed to prove to you your strength and ability to defeat the enemy, and as a testimony to others that sin and struggle are common to mankind and with faith and hope all things are possible thru the mercy of our Savior. My heart goes out to you.

Isn't that interesting? No data on RC suicide or Lutherans.

Knowledge for knowledge sake is a trap. Throughout man's history God has ALWAYS spoken to the simple, the meek, the humble, the "unlearned" and thus fooled the craftiness and the arrogance of the world. There is nobody that can give you a true answer than you can not obtain by yourself!! Be it the First Presidency, a GA or your Stake President. The truth is revealed to them the same way it is revealed to you; line upon line. I suggest you truly try to get to the bottom of things. Your questions are not new, are not unique and thus should not be so dark and complex than patient study, fasting and prayer could not reveal. A testimony is a different thing. That is entirely dependent on the full intent and desires of your heart. Such (true thoughts and feelings) you can not hide from God as he is aware of all that is before it becomes, including your thoughts. Until and unless you really, truly desire a testimony of Jesus Christ, his saving mission and endless power of Atonement as it pertains to you nothing will happen. I would not speculate as to what weights in your heart but I suspect that the real battle is waged there. I hope your faith will not fail you. I hope that you can reconcile the desires of your heart to the will of God. Only when such is accomplished you will truly be happy.

The bible tends to be somewhat sparse and not very detailed when it comes to "familiar spirits" and contact with them that are dead. There is Saul and Jonathan that went to a wizard and we all know how that end up. What is clear is that we should not participate in any activity that relates to invoking/disturbing the spirits of the dead. God has dealt harshly with those that insist in doing things of that nature. It is seductive and entertaining to some. It may even seem like empowerment but in fact it is contrary to God's commandments and thus a sin. A person my choose to interpret such activity however but it is clear from the bible that we should not mess with that stuff.

I spent 7 years going to every congregation I could find around LA. I listened to EVERYBODY and then some. I asked hundreds of questions and for thousands of hours tried to inquire and explore. It was an experiment, a way to test my assumptions and theories. Now the search is over, I am done, I found what I was looking for and I know with absolute certainty that I have found what I was looking for. I know that God has revealed to me what I sought for so many years and it is the absolute truth. Perhaps you have not experienced such certainty in yoru life. Perhaps you are still looking and searching and inquiring. I can understand and certainly appreciate that. As for me, I am done. You should continue your quest but you must go alone since I no longer search. I have been already in the places you are inviting me into and I found not what I sought. Questions I welcome, but only if the intent is to know or attempt to understand what I know and believe. The rest is just contention and in that I have no interest. So, my friend, I guess you understand why I really have no interest in what other are trying to share. Been there, done that.

Hello there. Yes I am. Welcome

Sad and difficult as the truth may be, ignoring it would be dangerous and foolish. You already know that what you are doing si wrong. Fear is what separates girls from women. I think you engage in sexual behavior because you are afraid that he will have nothing to do with you and your fantasy would be done. I think that the minute we succumb to sin for fear of the alternative we allowed the enemy to have power over us. You seem to be weak currently and thus you could be in great danger. I suggest to address this issue with your bishop before it is too late and not worry much about this guy. Worry about your future and the consequences for a mistake at this junction.

In the other hand, I can also understand the reaction of certain members on the board. It is completely counterintuitive to spend so much time and energy engaging people whith whom you do not agree in principle and discussing doctrine that you find seriously flawed or suspect to say the least. Many of us converts come from other religious tradition, and, it would not occur to me to go back to a RCC or Calvary Chapel forum to antagonize with them and showcase the beauty and amazing power of the true church of Christ. So if you have so adverse reaction to history and doctrine of the church, if you no longer believe and want to be associated, personally, with the worship and work of the church, logic dictates that you'd do just that. So when a person comes and begins to voice what other members perceive as anti-church rethoric they are going to react. After all, the forum was not designed for the opposition, disaffected, gnostics and heretics. I suggest that by far, the moderators allow a significant amount of leeway in what and how it is discussed. You will not get that much slack on any other board if your posts run counter clock with the forum's stated purpose. Thus, if you are an inactive member of the church, if you have your doubts about history, fact or doctrine, venting those here will not serve any purpose since you already know what the church position is. I am not sure what the motivations would be but it may be interesting if some real work would go into developing some insight into such. Other than that, the above seems like a mystery to me still.

Apparently, and according to lots of purportedly very smart people with all kinds of degrees and years of study, what the bible says is not what you and I think. The fact is that there is a lot of confusion and ambiguity. So a prophet is indeed needed. God is a God of order and truth and light are at the core of His essence. When a prophet says "thus saith the Lord..." the argument is over. Those that nevertheless want to contend know of surety in what side of the argument they find themselves. And there will always be those that want to argue with the prophet. Often times, they are the so called "smart ones." But again, apparently you seem to have no need for a prophet.

You just reaffirmed my theory. You maybe inclined to believe the BoM is the word of God. But you have an issue with other texts (revelation) and the messenger. Our Hebrew brothers do the same. There are whole chapters of Isaiah that the whole Christian world know are Messianic and refer to the Savior. They have a different read. In fact they just decided to ignore them all together and avoid them like the plague. My friend, you are doing the same. But I guess it is what it is and you already made up your mind.

That my friend is the million dollar question. Just last week my mother in law, whom I love as my own (by the way, she thinks I walk on water...don't tell her) just found out in our weekly dinner get-together that James (Santiago) the apostle that wrote the letter inteh NT was the brother of the Lord!!! The only reason why she believes me is because she know I would never lie to her. We read certain passages side by side. You see, Casidoro de la Reyna, allegedly the first full translator, was a RC monk in exile so as he is translated the bible he brought some serious baggage to the process. There are words in English that do not appear in Spanish, and he used different words in Spanish for the same word in Hebrew or Greek according to his own understanding and theological bias. There is no concordance or footnotes in the RV because of the lack of consistency. Last but not least, there is no certainty in the translators, who they were, what were their credentials or how long it took. In other words, those who read the bible ONLY in Spanish are at a serious disadvantage and in fact cut off from a rich and enlightened traditions that have been denied to them by the translators!!! So it does matter.

PC: Well, this is precisely what has happened to Christianity in the last 2000 years. People pick and choose what they want and like out of the bible, buffet style, build their view and theory around it and ignore the rest. It is impossible to accept the BoM message and ignore its origins and reject the messenger. I guess you could but it would be just a denial rooted in preconceived ideas and notions. In fact, our Jewish friends do the same by ignoring certain chapters of Isaiah since then do not want to get in to the Messianic debate with us. They just pretend is not there. The beauty of the BoM is its clarity and doctrinal transparency. Although it has its share of allegories and literary figures, it allows for no ambiguity. You may not agree with a certain doctrine in the BoM but it is impossible to claim that you do not understand what the text is referring to in that particular section. It details the Savior with the kind of clarity that is in many respects absent from the KJV. To say that the BoM is inspired of God but the D&C is not is just not coherent. The Constitution is a foundation document. But in itself it is not enough to govern the people.. Other documents were required, body of government, laws, statutes and orders were created in order to actually provide a vehicle for governing the affairs of the country. The D&C is more or less that. Because it provides additional revelation, directives and perspective different from one's fixed view of Christianity does not render the document outside the purview of God. I think the resistance comes from other places rather. If "you've been told that the BoM is not a great departure from mainstream Christian teachings" isn't it time that you'd find outm for yourself? Just a suggestion.