Justice

It's a blessing and a curse, that I can't read the scriptures in peace. I question everything, disect everything, break every word down, until it is very difficult for me to follow along with the gist of the story. I have only recently begun to read the Book of Mormon in large chunks, 15 chapters at a time, in order to get the larger picture. It has made a huge difference in the way I understand it, and it has greatly strengthened my testimony of it. I plan to get there with the Bible and other scriptures one day. Dr T, I am not attempting to change your mind, just to have a discussion. Matt. 22: 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. Mark 12: 25 25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. If you look closely at the question the Savior was asked and then His answer, quoted above, it is clear He is not saying people will not be married in heaven, but saying that marriages will not be performed after the resurrection, and since they were married according to the way they understood marriage, or until death do they part, their marriage would not be honored in heaven. Jesus never teaches people will not be married in heaven. It has been handed down as an incorrect interpretation of the Bible for many, many years.

I recently read one called "Plates of Gold" by Matthew B. Brown. This book quotes the journals of the people who were there and they all said that he only used the U&T at the beginning of the work, and that most of the time he used a seer stone placed in a hat. It offers a description of how he did this and why. I'd suggest anyone look into this who is curious.

missingsomething, I don't know if you saw it, but I posted something earlier in the week about trials. I gave a talk this poast week in church about trials, and posted a rough draft of my talk. It is long, but if you didnt see it, you might find it worth reading and pondering over the scriptures I used. It's called "Overcoming Trials" and is still on the first page of threads. Also, Elder Wirthlin's talk at the last General Conference is awesome. It's called "Come what may, and love it." I used this talk as the basis for the lesson I taught in Elder's Quorum this past Sunday as well. I guess we needed to OD on overcoming trials.

There are a few background points to help understand the story, as MoE has said. It makes a difference who He was speaking to and in what context He meant marriage, namely one performed without authority. Instead of getting into that, I'd like to share a simpler, more obvious side of the answer. "We Mormons" believe there won't be any marriages performed in heaven, or we believe we won't be "given in marriage" in heaven, just as the scripture says. Just as there will be no baptisms, no confirmations, no endowments, or basically, none of the earthly ordinances that are performed here. In our view, eternal marriage, or marriage performed by proper priesthood authortiy that lasts for all time and eternity, not just until death do you part, the marriage that will be recognized in heaven, is an ordinance, and it must be performed while we are mortal. So, it must be performed on earth, and will not be performed in heaven. In fact, it is a prerequisite, according to our belief, in order to reach the highest degree in the eternal worlds to come. This is a difficult concept for those who belive that the highest degree we can ever obtain is to be angels and sing to God forever. So, the scripture is saying that there will not be any mariages performed in heaven, and we believe that is true.

Isn't it a bit odd that we can deal with the big things in life much easier than we can the small ones? I think this is because with small things we tend not to involve the Lord, and with the big ones we do. So, that goes along with what you are saying. Thank you for sharing.

I think some posts were edited before you read them. However, even the original posts came across to me as addressing the topic not the people. When people diagree it can often be taken as being critical of the person, when in fact, the intent was to be critical of their opinion. In any case, I thought I'd add something to this topic that I have always pondered. It is true, as Janice said, that we are to show love to those who even dispitfully use us. Any hard feelings we harbor toward others hurts us more than it does anyone else. It's also true that I don't think the intent is to allow people to use us over and over. Where is the line drawn? Well, the scriptures often attach numbers like 7 times 70 to how many times we must forgive others. I think there is a way that both can be true; that we can love others unconditionally, no matter what they have done to us, and to not let others walk on us. The Savior taught the beattitudes to give us a basic understanding of this topic. I believe we can forgive others, love them, and at the same time learn from their previous behavior. The point being that as soon as we "condemn" another person, or as soon as we say in our hearts that we won't forgive them, we have "condemned" them in our own mind. We must always consider that at any moment another person can repent and change, and that if we offer the olive branch it might help them. We must be willing to do this, always. This is key to us being able to always repent. It is a perspective that we must develop and learn to have. I think this keeps the spirit of both sides of the argument.

Yes, one must be inspired by the Holy Ghost in order to reveal the things of God. They are not synonyms, but you cannot have one without the other. Inspiration can be related to the source of the work, while revelation is the actual delivering of the message. You can be inspired without saying or writing a word, but to reveal you must communicate the message that you were inspired with.

This isn't addressing the point directly, but if you give it some thought, I think you'll see my comment here are related, and when applied to this line of thinking shows the pattern the Lord always uses when He requires anything of man. If you think of stories in the Bible where the Lord gives commandments directly to men you will see that He frequently, if not always, requires something on the part of that man. How easy would it have been for the Lord to strike Goliath down in an awesome display of firepower from heaven and convince all around that it was God who slew him? How easy would it have been for the Lord to free the children of Israel from Egypt without Moses asking the Pharoah to free his people and use the staff to perform the Lord's wonders? How easy would it have been for the Lord to provide Noah with an ark already completed, already loaded with all the necessary animals aboard? On and on and on... Would it have been easy to hand Jospeh Smith a perfect, completed manuscript of the Book of Mormon? Certainly. In fact, He could have given the inspiration to Mormon and Moroni to write the abridgement in English so Joseph Smith would not have had to translate it at all. To me, the fact He required Joseph Smith to exercise faith and help in bringing the Lord's purposes about is very strong evidence that He was telling the truth. Had he claimed the Lord handed him the completed manuscript, his story wouldn't have been near as believable. The Lord rarely, if ever, works that way. Lies tend to be simple and believable. The things of the Lord require faith and effort on man's part, and usually come through trial, testing and great faith, while enduring persecution. It may not have been through a burning bush, a bolt of lightning from the sky, a great flood, or by any means we are familiar with the Lord using in the past, but the pattern is certainly there.

I wonder how "abrupt" the brother of Jared's words will prove to be? For those who are unfamiliar with what I'm referring to: Ether 12: 24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them.

My opinion is that "modern" Christian music blurrs the already gray line between the things of the Lord and the things of the world. I think this can cause more harm than knowing and understanding that line and keeping them separate. Remember the things of the Lord are holy and peacful, not like the things of the world that are trying to distract you from those things. I'll give you the best example I can think of. Watch and compare 2 movies. 1st watch Jesus of Nazareth, not even church produced, then watch Jesus Christ Superstar. See the difference? Some things aren't meant to mix. If you want to listen to worldly musice then you have that choice. But, if you want to listen to Christian music then listen to Christian music. Get Mormon Tabernacle Choir, or one of my favorites, Afterglow. Or, just by the CD complilation of all the hymns from the Chruch distribution center. I see danger in the combining. Also, if their intent really was to preach, then profitting off music while doing so is dangerously akin to priestcraft. I realize many will not agree, but I am free to give my opinion too. :)

Wow Susie. I don't think I have any words of wisdom that might even touch a portion of what you might need. I look at my life with my wife and kids and can't possibly fathom how any man wouldn't do anything possible to make their marriage work. I guess, maybe, it's difficult to see consequences when things have been one way for so long a time. I hate to say it, but maybe you really do need to separate and see if it wakes him up. That's what God has basically done with us. He has allowed us to separate ourselves from Him, putting us in an eternally dangerous situation, to see if we will return to Him with full purpose of heart. The heart will often grow fonder with absence. I know it is not God's intention for us to be unhappy. Next time you see a sunrise try to imagine a God who would give you that and not want you to be happy. I'm not sure about your prayers, and why yours seem so empty, but it might have something to do with any guilt you may have for your marriage issues. Guilt can be a powerful thing to bring us to God, but when dwelled on too much it can serve as the opposite.

Whether this is factually right, wrong, or otherwise, I whole-heartidly agree. This has been my impression as well.

I'm going to be short, simple, and generic... and what I say applied more to myself than to anyone else. In short, what separates us from God is sin. Sin is the whole reason we need Christ. When I want to draw closer to God all I have to do is give up a little more of the world. It seems to happen automatically after that.

Thank you for reporting back. I'm glad it went well. :)

Well, him too, for sure, but you definately rock!

Shooting Star, I can say with complete confidence that man made errors exist in the Bible, and in the same breath say that it is the word of God. I know with your background you can't see how it is so. The fact that man messed the Bible up for himself isn't reason to blame God for the errors. Nor do I believe that if the Bible did not contain errors that it would make a big difference to very many people. What we need to see is there. If you believe the Bible is a perfect rendition of God's word then you haven't really studied how we got the Bible or where it came from. We have a modern day prophet who has used revelation to show us some of the errors it contains. He even gave us a more correct version of the Bible through revelation.

Trust those who have told us the earth is flat? That man cannot fly? That we cannot break the sound barrier? That we cannot make it to the moon? Trust is a strong word. I would never place your trust in something man-made. An expert is only an expert until he is proven wrong.

Connie, you're my hero! Moroni 7 is AWESOME!

Ex. 32: 4 4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. Isa. 8: 1 1 Moreover the Lord said unto me, Take thee a great roll, and write in it with a man’s pen concerning Maher-shalal-hash-baz. The bold "graving tool" and "man's pen" are both taken from the same Hebrew word "heret." A heret was a carving or scribing tool they used to carve or engrave. When the Bible was translated it was assumed that the people in ancient Mesopotamia used papyrus to write on. It had not been discovered yet that in this same time period they used wax writing boards, which you would need a carving tool. Not only does that lead to a false translation of man's pen, but "great roll" as well. Oddly enough, if you think in terms of wax writing boards, and not scrolls of paper, the prophecy of the "sticks" in Isaiah comes alive. The entire meaning of the prophecy is lost because of the mistranslation. I can explain it if anyone is interested, but would probably use a different thread.

They are different. The gift of tongues, which we believe in also, has a specific purpose. I site the instance in early Acts where the Apostles are teaching to a multitude from many different countries, and that speak many different languages, yet they all understood as if in their own language. That is the pure form of the gift of tongues. It has nothing to do with the written word, but the spoken word. The seer stone and Urim and Thummim allow the "seer" or prophet to see all things past, present, and future. Joseph did not use interpretation of tongues to translate the Nephite records. The words were shown to him in the language he understood (English) as if the original writer was writing them in his language.

There's no doubt it exists, we just don't understand it. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I'm just pointing out that the only reason any of this is a discussion is because we don't know. We will never know what's true unless we learn it from the spirit. Evidence can change. Studies evolve. Experiments only arrive at an acceptable percentage. But, when God speaks, it's over. No more experiements, studies or evidence needed.

There are more than *just* contradictions in the Bible. There are flat out errors in translation that have led to passages being misunderstood. Is there anyone who thinks there aren't any and wants to see a couple?

Well, a lot of people who have a superficial understanding of what happened tend to think it would have been much easier for God to just hand Jospeh Smith a perfect, translated record. And, no doubt it would have been easier. It takes a bit of reading and praying to see why it was necessary for Joseph Smith to translate the record. After even just a cursory study one begins to see what it did for Joseph Smith's faith, and even confidence in himself in being able to do what the Lord asks, how the Lord would help him, about the importance of strict obedience, and how perfectly he learned to rely on the Lord... something he would need to learn to do.

The thing about taking inventory of your own weakness *before* you criticize others for theirs, is that once you realize your weakness, you will never criticize others. So, I don't think it's saying once you have sufficiently punished yourself for what you do, *then* you can criticize others. Like the story of the woman who was brought before Christ caught in the very act of adultery. There was no question she was guilty. But, Christ's intention was not that they throw stones at themselves first, and *then* throw stones at her. His intention was that they use all their time and efforts to clean their inward vessel, and recognize that they were in need of forgiveness just as she was. Not that he condoned the sin, but that we should realize people can change and use the atonement to repent. Good discussion.

All things have not been revealed. In fact, Joseph Smith was only able to translate an abridgement of the ancient record, and for certain reasons, some of the authors were left entirely out of the book. Mahonri Moriancumer (sp?), or the brother of Jared, is one of these prophets who's words have been hidden from us. Here is a little about him: Ether 12: 23 And I said unto him: Lord, the Gentiles will mock at these things, because of our weakness in writing; for Lord thou hast made us mighty in word by faith, but thou hast not made us mighty in writing; for thou hast made all this people that they could speak much, because of the Holy Ghost which thou hast given them; 24 And thou hast made us that we could write but little, because of the awkwardness of our hands. Behold, thou hast not made us mighty in writing like unto the brother of Jared, for thou madest him that the things which he wrote were mighty even as thou art, unto the overpowering of man to read them. Church members anticipate the day we can read the brother of Jared's writings. And as a side note, the Lord answered this prophet's concern about the seemingly awkward writing in the Book of Mormon: 25 Thou hast also made our words powerful and great, even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words. 26 And when I had said this, the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness; This is why testimonies of the Book of Mormon can come ONLY by an honest and sincere desire to know if it is of God. People who want to hang on to what they know, and think they know better about what God would do, will not read in humility and ask to know if it's true. They just mock the words. He finished His explanation: 27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them. 28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.