Justice

Which phrases in particular?

This should go without saying. The sole purpose for the creation was to provide a way (part of His plan) where His children could fall and follow through with what they chose... mortality. There is only one kind of mortality. We have Lehi to thank for some powerful truths taught in the Book of Mormon. 2 Nephi chapter 2: 17 And I, Lehi, according to the things which I have read, must needs suppose that an angel of God, according to that which is written, had fallen from heaven; wherefore, he became a devil, having sought that which was evil before God. 18 And because he had fallen from heaven, and had become miserable forever, he sought also the misery of all mankind. Wherefore, he said unto Eve, yea, even that old serpent, who is the devil, who is the father of all lies, wherefore he said: Partake of the forbidden fruit, and ye shall not die, but ye shall be as God, knowing good and evil. 19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth. 20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth. 21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents. 22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. 23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. 24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. 25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. All speculation should be grounded in these precious truths.

I will never dispute this. What I am doing is suggesting that all who followed Satan believed he had the ability to do what he said he could. It seems silly to have to suggest that if they didn't believe that they wouldn't have followed him. So, for us to say his plan wouldn't work is based on the fact that we know that. Those who followed him did not know that, as for the previously stated reason, so to them it would have been a plan. What the scriptures aren't very clear about is whether or not Lucifer believed his plan would work. A valid question is did he even really want to save anyone? All speculation. But, to those who followed Satan, they must have believed his plan would work. To say otherwise is suggesting they would knowingly follow a plan they didn't believe would work. I think that opinion is narrow minded, based on what we now know, showing the lack of the ability to put yourself in their place. Alma 12 and 42 give us some insight to Lucifer's plan. Alma even alludes to Lucifer's plan.

All good points. The way I see it, the rebellion you speak of was driven by this alteration to Father's plan propsed by Lucifer. The choice they made to follow this opposing plan proposed by Lucifer was their rebellion. It's the same choice we make here on earth. Those who follow Satan are in rebellion of God. God commands against following Satan but leaves it for us to decide. We have two possibilities in front of us, eternal life, or eternal damnation. Our choices day by day bring about these consequences. I think God gave them what they desired. They chose their own consequences. They did not want to come to earth and become mortal and trust another to redeem them. They did not exercise faith in Christ, just as we fail to here at times. We have an opportunity to repent because we chose to come here. We put our faith in Christ, and because of Him we can repent. They have no redeemer to allow them to repent; they have no savior. I think it's semmantics, really. I think the rebellion you speak of was this lack of faith in Christ.

I guess it comes down to intentions. Lucifer said he would return all Father's children. Was he lying? At first thought it seems obvious that he was. But, remember, he was going down this road too. Would he knowingly do this to himself for eternity by proposing and supporting a plan that he knew wouldn't work? I don't know. If you say it was just a big scam, then let's call it a scam. There's still a small part of me that thinks he believed his alteration would work. A third part of the children of God, the morning stars, believed it would. It must have seemed like it had merit. When I call it Satan's plan I do so with full knowledge that it had no chance of working. Maybe that doesn't fit the term plan.

No one or nothing can take your agency away. When it is said that Satan wanted to remove our agency, it means he wanted to make it where some choices were not available to us. He wanted to force us to obey him by removing other choices. Some followed him willingly, others did not. He was devising a way where the rest of us had "no choice but to follow him," thereby removing our agency. The wording is tricky, but if you stay with core truths it makes it easier. As children of God we have agency, and the only way our ability to choose God or Satan can be removed is by our choice. God will never remove a man's ability to choose Him or Satan. However, Satan has no such integrity. He wanted to remove God as a choice, even for those who wanted to choose God. That's what it means by Satan wanted to remove our agency. Read Alma 12 and 42. Satan is still trying.

Hind sight is always 20/20. Those who chose to side with Lucifer did so because they thought his plan could work. They were fooled. I don't see anywhere in this thread where anyone said Lucifer proposed a plan that would work. It doesn't say in scripture whether Lucifer actually believed his plan could accomplish the same thing as Father's. Maybe he wanted something else, or maybe he actually believed his alterations would still bring about Father's desired results. Since he is the father of lies it's hard to know what he thought. But, Lucifer did propose to alter Father's plan. So, if we can't call it Lucifer's plan, then maybe we should call it Lucifer's alteration to Father's plan. Either way, those who followed him did so because they believed it would work. If the goal of the plan was to gain a body, then all who came to earth succeeded? There was something else we lacked that Father in Heaven had. He had the knowledge of good and evil and chose to use His agency for good. In order to become like Him (so we could live with Him, or live like Him) we also needed to gain the knowledge of good and evil, and then learn to choose good over evil. That is the crux of the plan. We needed to be separated from Him to bring this plan about, so the earth was created and the conditions were implemented whereby His children could come to earth, fall (separated from Him by a veil), be redeemed, and given a chance to learn to choose good over evil. We do this by following the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the key being repentance. Again, no one claimed Lucifer's plan would work. Maybe it was his plan to make it where we couldn't return to Heavenly Father so he could rule over us. We don't know exactly what his goals were for proposing an alteration to Father's plan, other than the generic reasons meantioned in scripture. Agreed. :)

We can get into the semmantics of God's plan verses Satan's plan, and that there really was only one plan presented. The fact is, God only presented one plan. Lucifer then proposed an ammended version, or his own plan. Whether or not it would work does not make it a plan. Lots of plans in history were doomed before they started.

Remember that LDS belif is that Adam and Eve chose to Fall. Accordingly, they chose the consequences. When we read the list of consequences it looks like a punishment, but I wonder...

In the earliest Hebrew texts of the Old Testament, Eve did not say she was beguiled, she, in fact, said that the serpent caused her to forget. Parallel Hebrew Old Testament

When a child who is 2 takes a toy that doesn't belong to them, for the sole reason that they want it, being unable to consider the consequences, it is transgression. They have to be taught why it is wrong and what consequences come as a result of their action. A law or rule was broken, but it was done without understanding. Sin, is when an adult steals something, with full knowledge of right and wrong and of the consequences to self and to the one they stole from. There is a blatant difference. Remember, Adam and Eve had not yet partaken of the fruit of the tree of the knwoledge of good and evil, so they were still in a state of innocence. They did not fully understand the consequences.

I have a new favorite document. I'm sure it will be short-lived, until I find another one. As many of you know, I have been speaking to a friend at work for the past year and a half about religion. He is Christian, and he thinks the Book of Mormon was written by Joesph Smith. He claims the many changes that have been made over the years are evidence it is a false book. After listening to this line of talk several times, I decided to do some research on my own. I found many articles, but this is my favorite: Changes in the Book of Mormon I LOVE that article. I highly suggest you take the time to read it. It's dry, afterall he's a Skousen! But, seriously, take the time to read it. It will make you go hmmm over and over.

You hit the nail on the head that it's not about caffeine. But, the revelation as a whole certainly is about health, both physical and spiritual. Avoiding harmful or addictive substances or foods and drinks can certainly help one overcome themselves (personal desires)... if that is their goal. There are many parts of the WoW that may be more directly health related than the hot drinks, like grains and such, but the hot drinks wouldn't be mentioned if there wasn't something health related to them. All of God's commandments are "obedience commandments," if I understand you right.

I second your comments, so they yet live! I'd also like to add that the "spirit" of this law may be to avoid things that are not only harmful, but addictive. We have a hard enough time overcoming the world without having to do so through addiction.

Did any of you receive your October Ensign yet? HOLY COW! It's a treasure trove! It's completely about the Book of Mormon. I plan to go through it slowly. The last article caught my eye first, it's by Elder Holland. He bears his testimony of the Book of Mormon. He quotes his great-great-great grandfather, Elder George Canon of the Twelve: "No wicked man could write such a book as this; and no good man would write it, unless it were true and he were commanded of God to do so." I love it! I can't wait to dive in! The New Era this month has a question and answer session in it where several questions I see discussed on these forums from time to time are asked and answered. If I get a chance I'll type them in, or paste them in if it's on-line.

Agency is directly realted to our choice to follow God or Satan. Choices that align us to one or the other are what exercise the agency spoken of in scripture. Whether to paint the bathroom blue or green is not such a choice. Whether to give up a sin or continue in it is such a choice.

As children of Heavenly Father, or as beings of His kind, we have the inherent right to act, and not be acted upon (agency). This is why it is confused with being "free," because we did nothing to earn it. However, as we make bad choices, future choices are limited or no longer possible. This is why it is not considered free. Moral agency comes at the cost of using it wisely. As we follow Satan we slowly give up our agency. We had agency in the pre-mortal existence, as evident by the fact that Lucifer and his followers exercised their agency to choose a plan contrary to God's will. It was not "given" to us in the pre-mortal life to make such a choice. Making this choice in God's presence meant further progression was limited, or removed. Once the earth was created and we became dual natured beings (spirit bodies and physical bodies) a way was in place that once we chose contrary to God's will (sin) we would become mortal and therefore be granted a certain "time" to repent and learn to choose God's will (Alma 12 and 42). So, once Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden God said "thou mayest choose for thyself." Once we repented and learned to do God's will, or in other words, once we were reborn spiritually, we could them be reborn physically and stand in His presence again to be judged. However, because of sin, we were forever separated from God by a gulf we could not cross on our own (2 different kinds of death). This is why the Savior was sent, to bridge this gulf for us since we could not.

This discussion goes where many don't like to take it (many outside the Church, that is). He is comparing our light to "good works." Look at the whole analogy: 14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Of course, we don't do good works so that we can boast, but to glorify God. But, this is the explantion. He also makes this same comparison to salt. If salt looses it's savor, it's no longer salt. If we lose our good works we are no longer His. We are judged by our works. Works do not earn eternal life, but works are the evidence of our faith in Christ and the eternal life He offers. Works are how we accept Him and how we become worthy to abide in His presence. People often discuss whether we are saved by faith (grace) or works. I ask why can't it be both? Farming is a beautiful analogy. God provides the seed. The seed is compared to the word in the scriptures, and Christ is called the Word. The seed is the driver; it's what makes all effort (or faith) meaningful. A farmer will prepare the soil, till the soil, plow, plant the seeds, then cover and nurture. If he continues to care for the seeds and the plants that will come, eventually he will be able to harvest, or his efforts will yield fruit (or grain or whatever). Let's look at the same scenario twice, with a different change to each scenario. First, let's remove the seeds. The farmer works very hard and does all that he can, but he did not use seeds. His work is vain and he will yield no fruit. Second, let's remove the work. The farmer is given seeds but never works his soil, never tills, plows, or plants the seed. The farmer cannot expect to yield a crop. The seeds become worthless to that man if he does not put them to their intended use. So, I say, why can't it be both? Both are required to save a man. God will not save a man if he is unwilling to be saved. The Gospel becomes worthless to those who refuse to do anything with it.

I've always heard that Jesus spoke a Semitic language called Aramaic?

We have the Book of Moses and no ancient text was used. It came as a result of Joseph Smith making a more plain translation of the Bible. If it's the document itself that's bothering you, try reading the Book of Abraham and praying about it to see if it's true.

Yes, there's also the scripture that states that the whole world will see Him come again. We know the world is round and that He can only come to one side of it. I'm wondering how much technology played in that prophecy also. Or, of course, it could simply mean all will know relatively soon at His coming. It's hard to say, but I'm not ruling anything out until we know.

I suppose for the same reason the Lord had His Priesthood named after a men. If a man is truly seeking eternal life, and doing all things in his power to follow Christ's example in any area, like the General Authorities of today who dedicate the remainder of their lives to serving the Lord, then it's good for us to have those among who are doing so held in remembrance. It means a lot to me that I used to sit in one-on-one interviews with my Stake President, Elder Bednar, that he is now an Apostle. The example he set among us is validated. The things he taught about the Plan of Salvation out of the scriptures now sink deeper. He was the most vocal in this area of the world for us to follow and pattern our lives after Christ. Seeing him do it gives me increased hope, and just that bit more of a personal example of how it's done. We all have had people in our lives who have influenced us for good, whom we hold in high regard. To people who do this same thing for thousands or more, those people may choose to erect a statue or name a building after him in his memory. It doesn't mean that they ignore the Savior, but that they hope to be able to better follow the Savior by having more vivid and physical examples in their lives about how to follow the Savior. The Lord gives us Apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth, for our benefit. I see no harm in remembering their examples of how to be more Christ-like. Can there be danger in doing so? Certainly. Someone may actually think that it's Aaron's or Melchezidek's priesthood and not the Lord's.

Some of your confusion may be that, technically, we do both. We return to the spirit world to either Paradise or Prison to await judgement. After judgement, those who are given eternal life will then return to Heavenly Father in the Celestial Kingdom, or as you say "heaven." My first response was a very simple answer, as I thought you were asking a simple question. From a certain perspective, heaven and the spirit world are the same.

Because God exists in the "spirit world."

Interesting, Obolus.