Justice

Answer me 1 question honestly, billy. It's in 2 parts: Did you read all those books you referenced and discover those for yourself? Or, did you stumble across them on a web site and are just taking their word for it?

It's OK. :) He has to get around to all the scriptures eventually. I didn't really mean to post about works, but I can't separate "beliving Christ" from working for His purpose.

So, back to the question, what does it mean to believe Christ? Can you say you believe in your heart, yet do nothing? Are you saying we do not have agency? Are you saying God is 100% responsible for man's salvation, and at the same time acknowledge some men will be cast into outer darkness? If God is 100% responsible for salvation, then why did He not save all men? What separates those who gain eternal life and those who are cast into outer darkness? Did God just decide who to "save?" I have heard your arguments or viewpoints or interpretations 1,000 times. But, they leave me empty. If you define "believe Christ" you must concede that it requires good works to claim it. Luke 6: 46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. James 1: 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of bliberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. Romans 2: 13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. What you misunderstand is that faith requires action on your part. To say you believe in Christ requires you to act or work, or you are a liar. When the scriptures say "believe in Christ," following Him, or keeping His commandments, is implied. You cannot be His disciple is you do not follow Him, or attempt to put His teachings into practice. 1 John 2: 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Some want to say they can be saved and not do anything. Many man do nothing and aren't saved. Why can a man who claims to believe in Christ, yet do nothing, claim to be greater than a man who does not claim to believe in Christ and does nothing? To me, the man who claims to believe in Christ and does nothing is worse. The New Testament says that the devils believe Jesus is the Christ, yet they are not saved. Highlights of James 2: James 2: 14, 17-18, 20-22, 24-26 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? • • • 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. • • • 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? • • • 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. John 14: 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. Often in the New Testament the Bible refers to the Law of Moses as the law of works, or just works. This is what confuses most Christians. We are not saved by the law of Moses, or the works of the Law of Moses, but we are saved by the law of Christ, or the works of the Law of Christ. Galatians 2: 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Clearly, this is saying man is not justified by the works of the law of Moses, but by the works of the law of Christ. This is the only way to understand both Galatians and James. They must agree. Matthew 5: 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Works done for the right reason, for the glory of God, justify a man. Matthew 16: 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 23: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. The parable of the sheep and goats is perfectly clear. If you say you believe in Christ, but do not feed the hungry, visit the sick, and help the afflicted, then you will be on His left hand, not right. In fact, read the whole chapter, all 3 parables teach the same story, and all 3 hinge on the works we do. Now, don't put words in my mouth and claim I'm saying our works can earn us salvation without Christ. They cannot. It is only by Christ that our works are made meaningful. This is His grace; it empowers us to be more than we can be without Him: John 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Christ "contended" against the Scribes and Pharisees many times. But, He was never contentious toward them. If a person is trying to make a claim that being even somewhat contentious is what Christ wants us to be, they are mistaken, and do not know the Christ of the New Testament or Book of Mormon. Main Entry: con·tend Pronunciation: \kən-ˈtend\ Function: verb intransitive verb 1 : to strive or vie in contest or rivalry or against difficulties : struggle 2 : to strive in debate : argue transitive verb 1 : maintain, assert <contended that he was right> 2 : to struggle for : contest I think the 1st definition in the transitive sense is what we're looking for. We must maintain or assert, or testify, never to argue or fight.

I want to borrow this comment made by JudoMinja in a different thread. I've been studying the book of Hebrews lately. I think chapter 3 and 4 teach this principle very well. I once heard that the key to understanding the New Testament is knowing what question is being answered. The epistles, or letters, sent to the different churches were meant to interpret doctrine that was misunderstood, or to settle controversies that particular branch of the church had. So, it stands to reason that if you can find the purpose for the letter, or the "question being answered," then understanding the New Testament would be easier. As I studied the New Testament and pondered on what question each teaching might be addressing, it was amazing how much clearer the New Testament became. Take Hebrews for instance: Hebrews 3: 1 WHEREFORE, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, aconsider the bApostle and cHigh Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Modern revelation throws such a brighter light on what Paul may have been saying, and to whom. This sounds to me like he is addressing a Priesthood body. "Holy brethren" and "partakers of the heavenly calling" seem to be addressing those men who had been called to the priesthood. But, it is also clear that the times were very different, and women were not given the same treatment they are today. It could have been addressed to brethren, knowing they were the priesthood leaders, yet meant for all members. 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end. Moses was faithful in his house, which we understand as the Aaronic Priesthood. Jesus Christ was faithful in His house, indeed, He built the house. We know the Melchezidek Priesthood as the Prisethood after the order of the Son of God, or the higher priesthood. To LDS, it is clear Paul is referencing his audience as priesthood holders. The next part is a quote from the Old Testament referring to Moses and the children of Israel, giving evidence to the fact that Paul was addressing the priesthood. Notice the quote is in parenthesis, which, as you know, can be removed from a sentence to find the intended meaning. So, let's remove the quote in parenthesis, and see what happens. 7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, aproved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. Wherefore, take heed brethren... It is interesting that Paul was speaking to Priesthood holders, or those of the covenant, and he warns them to take heed. It is true that God is faithful and will honor all who honor Him. But, where do we see "once saved always saved" doctrine here? We don't. Paul is warning the covenant people to take heed lest they fall into sin. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; I have studied this verse a great deal. I think it's message was lost in translation. I think it is saying: 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold our confidence in Christ stedfast from the beginning unto the end; I don't know how one can hold a beginning confidence stedfast. With faith in Christ, one's confidence grows. Then, Paul uses the quote from the Old Testament to teach people how he has taken ownership of the words, and how they apply to them as well as to them of old. 15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. Again, the children of Israel were people of the covenant. They did not enter the promised land, not because God was not faithful, but because they were not. They believed IN God, but did not believe God. Chapter 5 finishes this thought nicely: 1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. He is telling them that just like the children of Israel, if they are not faithful to their covenants then they, too, will fall short of God's rest. And, what is God's rest? We'll get into that in a minute, but let's finish the thought first. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. Interesting that the New Testament says the Gospel was preached to the children of Israel, yet most Christians don't believe that it was. It says it did not profit them, and is (I believe) why Moses broke the first set of tablets. The Gospel was preached, but they did not exercise faith in it, so it was taken from them, and as a result, they were not allowed to enter into the promised lane, or "rest of the Lord." 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. This is a scripture many Christians use to justify their belief in "once saved always saved." They think it's saying all work is done in Christ, and man can no longer work works of Salvation. 4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. Now we know that God didn't "rest" after created the heaven and earth. But, the seventh day He rested from "His works." Watch closely: 5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. Clearly, Paul is teaching a Gospel of works and laboring, but not after our own will and wants for ourselves, but after God's will and wants for us. When we put God and His Kingdom first, we rest from our labors or works, and find rest in His. Worldly labors do not bring rest. They need to be done and redone, and if they are foremost on our minds we will NOT find rest. But, seeking the Kingdom of God and His will, we will find rest from the cares and sorrows of the world. Believe Christ, just don't believe IN Him. To me, that means we work and labor for Christ. It's a choice we make. We are not driven to, but we are enticed to by the Spirit. We have our agency to do which ever we choose. How Christians can walk away from Hebrews thinking they are being told works are not required for their salvation is beyond me. Clearly, these words say the works of the law of Moses are not required, but the works of the law of Christ (called faith) are most certainly required.

I agree that there is supposed to be one Christian religion. But, that certainly is not reality. If worshipping Jesus makes a religion Christian, then why is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints not considered Christian by most of the Christian community?

I've offered my opinion that this is true before, but I have no evidence, just impression.

Investing and gambling are VERY different. THe Church invensts, but it does not gamble. Think of the parable of the talents...

It's a promise given to people who read the Book of Mormon. The Lord promised that if you read the Book of Mormon with a genuine desire to know if it is true, and all that it implies, that the truth of it will be manifest to you by the power of the Holy Ghost (see Moroni 10: 3-5). The Holy Ghost works by power and feeling. The hinge here is that you read it with a real and genuine desire to know if it's true, not just read it because you enjoy reading more scripture. The fact is, if you read the Book of Mormon and desire to know whether or not it's true, you have to make certain promises to the Lord as to what you will do with this new found truth once it's revealed to you. If your only purpose is to read it for amusement, then I doubt you will get any such feeling. Have you ever really pondered on the significance of IF it really is true, and it really IS of God, and Joseph Smith really DID see The Father and the Son? If those things are true, and He gives you a witness of those things so that you know they are true, it has to change your life. If you are unwilling, as you read, to make any changes in your life based on whether or not it is true, you probably won't get those feelings.

I'd like to see how "from all eternity to all eternity" translates into different languages. Uses: Moses 7: 29 And Enoch said unto the Lord: How is it that thou canst weep, seeing thou art holy, and from all eternity to all eternity? 31 And thou hast taken Zion to thine own bosom, from all thy creations, from all eternity to all eternity; and naught but peace, justice, and truth is the habitation of thy throne; and mercy shall go before thy face and have no end; how is it thou canst weep? Mosiah 3: 5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases. Alma 13: 7 This high priesthood being after the order of his Son, which order was from the foundation of the world; or in other words, being without beginning of days or end of years, being prepared from eternity to all eternity, according to his foreknowledge of all things— Moroni 8: 18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. D&C 39: 1 Hearken and listen to the voice of him who is from all eternity to all eternity, the Great I Am, even Jesus Christ— Moses 6: 67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.

The period of time during 4th Nephi is amazing to think about. It was around 175 years (give or take one or two) of continual peace and righteousness. I find it odd that's the least talked about period of time during the Nephite history. That's one of the time periods I'm looking forward to reading about when more of their history is revealed.

I assume Mormon's authority was a continuation of when Christ gave it them.

Did anyone find it odd they seemed to ordain to the Priesthood before they baptized?

Being judgmental. Smoking pot is against the laws of the land and by doing so you run a high risk of becoming addicted, both of which will bring about consequences. But, being judgmental is from the heart, and poison to the soul. Judge not that ye be not judged. I think a person is in danger of a righteous judgement if they are judgmental of others.

This birth He is speaking of is the fall. Adam was "born" into mortality through the fall. Read the verse closely. This "death" allowed them to be "born into mortality." Adam and Eve were immortal while in the Garden of Eden. The scriptures say they would have remained in the same state forever had they not fallen.

I have learned that the child takes on the characteristics of its mother. Jesus was born of a mortal mother, or with blood, so Jesus was born with blood. Adam was not born of a mortal mother, but an immortal mother, so he did not have blood when born. If anyone has any scriptures or quotes that states otherwise I'd love to see them. This is the principle behind which Satan tempted Eve and not Adam. If Satan wanted to destroy the agency of man, all he had to do was get Eve to partake of the forbidden fruit, and then immediately partake of the tree of life (Alma 12 and 42). She would have become immortal before she was redeemed spiritually, and all of her offspring would have been born immortal, born into the same spiritually fallen state she was in, having no hope at redemption because a blood atonement was no longer possible. Because, obviously, all of Eve's offspring, including Jesus Christ, would have been born immortal, not able to shed blood or die. Alma 12 and 42.

The counsel was derived from what's in Moroni 7. If it persuades you to believe in Christ, then it is good and of God. If it does not persuade you to believe in Christ, then it is Satan's devise to keep your mind off of Christ. That's much clearer counsel than an MPA rating. Having said that, I have watched some R rated movies. But, I'm certain I would be better off if I didn't.

But, the Book of Mormon gives you a better perspective on how to interpret much of what's in the New Testament. :) coughalmacough

Which is interesting since Christians also believe it took 6 time periods called "days" to create the earth. Does God have the power to will the material to create the earth into existence from nothing, but lack the power to will it already created? Doesn't make much sense. The longer you give it serious thought, the better you will see the contradiction.

Jesus is the Only Begotten in the flesh, meaning into mortality. Adam was not born mortal.

That one went right over my head.

Did anyone say Alma? :)

Of course, until you include Book of Mormon and other modern scripture... ...which, if we're correct, is strong evidence, even proof, that modern scripture was needed. :)

The recent thread about baptism reminded me of something I read last week. I was wondering what you thought of it. It seems they had different qualifications for baptism, or more strict enforcement anyway, and that they viewed baptism a little more importanly than we do today. Moroni 6: 1 And now I speak concerning baptism. Behold, elders, priests, and teachers were baptized; and they were not baptized save they brought forth fruit meet that they were worthy of it. 2 Neither did they receive any unto baptism save they came forth with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and witnessed unto the church that they truly repented of all their sins. 3 And none were received unto baptism save they took upon them the name of Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end. 4 And after they had been received unto baptism, and were wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost, they were numbered among the people of the church of Christ; and their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith. At first reading it sounds much like what we do today. But, there are some key phrases in these verses that seem to be saying something different than how we view baptism today. Starting with the first line that says they baptized elders, priests, and teachers, when today men or boys are baptized and then receive the priesthood afterward. There are more "apparent" differences, see if you can see them. And, if you really are curious, the rest of the chapter seems to have differences also. Here are the remaining verses of the chapter for convenience for those who are curious. 5 And the church did meet together oft, to fast and to pray, and to speak one with another concerning the welfare of their souls. 6 And they did meet together oft to partake of bread and wine, in remembrance of the Lord Jesus. 7 And they were strict to observe that there should be no iniquity among them; and whoso was found to commit iniquity, and three witnesses of the church did condemn them before the elders, and if they repented not, and confessed not, their names were blotted out, and they were not numbered among the people of Christ. 8 But as oft as they repented and sought forgiveness, with real intent, they were forgiven. 9 And their meetings were conducted by the church after the manner of the workings of the Spirit, and by the power of the Holy Ghost; for as the power of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach, or to exhort, or to pray, or to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done.

The Bishop or Branch President is also supposed to interview them, or the District or Zone Leader where the Church is less organized. But, the time is minimal. Those who said it is more up to the investigator have the right idea.