Justice

Yes, through modern revealtion we can see the purpose for the fall. The fact that the Savior was ordained to Redeem the world from the fall even before GOd created the earth is proof it was part of God's plan. Yes, God gave them the commandment to multiply while they were in the Garden. So, where are the children they had wehile in the Garden? Why weren't they mentioned or even kicked out of the Garden when they were? It's because, even though commanded, they were unable. I don't disagree with this. Because of the fall they inherited a world of carnal desires and sin. Same as above. No, the curses came as a consequence of their choice. Read the result of the fall closely. The fact is, if they did not fall you would not be here. That's the blessing part. Of course not. But, the question I ask you is what exactly was Eve deceived or beguiled about? You see, we have modern revealtion, and a restoration of other scripture that paints a clearer picture on events that aren't so clear in just the Bible. Nephi clarifies some aspects of the fall here: 2 Nephi 2: 19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth. 20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth. 21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents. 22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. 23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. 24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things. 25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. 26 And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given. 27 Wherefore, men are afree according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself. Most Christians believe our purpose, or the reason God created us, is so that we might worship and praise Him for eternity. That sounds a bit juvenile to me. I mean, think about it. Here is God Almighty, who has and holds all things in the palm of His hands, creating a lower life form soley for the purpose that they might worship Him. I don't think so. Someone is lying about that. I like Nephi's reason better... men are that they might have joy. That sounds more like a God of love to me. That sounds more like the Christ I know in the New Testament. Men have joy when they have children... Now that's sweet doctrine!

It starts here: Genesis 2: 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Interesting the scriptures point this out. I believe it is to show us the difference before and after. Then: Genesis 3: 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. See how the knoweldge they gain is tied directly to knowing they were "naked?" If one is to procreate, they must first recognize male and female and recognize nakedness. 9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. Here, they had spoken to God face to face some unknown number of times. But, now, after they eat the fruit they hide from Him because they were "naked." The knowledge of being naked is a prerequisite for understanding how to procreate. Then, as if to solve all confusion, God relates the 2 together: 11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? I believe their bodies were perfect in every way. The fall did not grant them the ability to procreate, but the carnal knowledge necessary to learn and understand how. It's like giving a young child a high performance racing car... until the child learns how to start it and drive it, he "can't" drive it. If you think of the pre-mortal existence, there were 2 things we needed in order to become like our Father in Heaven. 1. A body 2. The knowledge of good and evil In the Garden they had a body, but did not become like God until they ate the fruit and "learned" good and evil. As a result of eating the fruit, God said: 22 ...Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil... Picturing it from the pre-mortal existence, if we were to gain eternal life (and what we know it means), we needed to learn how to procreate. This required a carnal world with carnal desires, one that could not exist where God is. This is the world that Adam and Eve gave us by their fall. God, knowing this before hand, already foreordained Jehovah to redeem mankind from the required carnal state of spiritual death for all those who repent and choose spiritual life over carnal life.

God creates our mortal bodies? I have 3 children of my own. Is this some symbol you speak of? Because, I know how my children's bodies were formed. You know, sometimes you have to understand what's being said instead of limiting what's being said to your own understanding. The word "return" implies you were there before. Show me exactly where the Bible says our body and spirit are created at the same time.

"That one chooses to do" is the key. God fits this definition.

I look at it this way. 1. God created all things and set them in motion. Something happen just because they are in motion. 2. God can intervene and add circumstances by the power of His Word. 3. God can intervene and prevent circumstances by the power of His Word. So, even though all things are under God's control, there is a "motion" to things that makes it where His direct intervention is not required. This works for weather, trials, and any other seemingly random events.

The ark was pretty darn big. It was about 450 feet long (about a football field and a half) and was constructed with multiple (many) levels. If you're gather 14 of the clean animals and 4 of the unclean (as the story suggests), you could fit a LOT of different species in that space.

Moroni 7 came to mind instantly when I read your comment, wbrisett. Moroni 7: 16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. You said the Book of Mormon has strengthened your relationship with Christ. according to Moroni, that might be the witness you're looking for, and just overlooked it. I know for me, sometimes things that are the most obvious are the hardest to see.

That's the bottom line. It's taught so clearly in the New Teatament, it really does baffle me why it's not obvious to all Christians. If we do not do what Christ says (or try and repent when we fall short--or maintain an effort) then we cannot claim to be a follower of Christ without being a hypocrite. So, if we believe Him, we'll do what He says. How can you claim to believe Him and not do what He says?

Yep. The word "couldn't" works for both possibilities. I'm not sure about what will become of us in the different degrees of glory. I'm not certain about how procreation will be limited to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. It very well could be a knowledge only those gain in that glory. I really love Alma 12 and 42. It takes some diving in and dissecting. I have learned many important things in those 2 chapters about the fall and Satan's plan.

What I'm saying is that just because it was discovered by scientific means doesn't necessarily mean it's true. We can all think of things scientists "deduced" in the past, based on evidence, that turned out to be wrong. Maybe a better way to look at it is that often, science can help us learn what is not right.

The witness of the Spirit surpasses all understanding. Unless and until you receive a witness of the Spirit everything you study and ponder is just information, no matter how logical it seems. You cannot come to know the truth about God by science. Many think I am putting science down. Many think I'm trying to encourage people not to study science. That's not what I'm trying to do or say. What I'm trying to say is that no matter how much time and effort we put into studying the Gospel, and no matter where we get our information (science or otherwise), we need the confirmation of the Spirit to be sure. So, as you study and learn, you must ponder and pray. Don't rely on yourself to be able to determine what is true out of the myriads of different opinions that are out there, even after spending years and years studying them.

Speaking of death, what does this scripture mean? Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Interesting word "return" isn't it? The body returns to the earth and becomes dust again, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it life. What does it mean by "the spirit shall return unto God" if both the body and spirit are made at the same time at conception?

So, God does not create the spirit of man?

I meant a little more in depth. When a baby is born now, exactly what happens? Are the body and spirit both created together? Did the spirit exist before? Does God "put or place" a spirit that He created prior to conception in the body created by man and woman? Feel free to elaborate.

I'll find the quotes if you want, but it was said they were "innocent" while in the Garden. This is the same state we were in during the pre-mortal existence, except they were in physical bodies. I believe they just lacked the knowledge, just like during the pre-earth life. "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil" tells us something of what they may have learned. When did they learn how to procreate? If they were not able at all, how could they have learned how? I believe they were created perfect. The fall did not add the ability to procreate, but knowledge they did not have before. Adam could learn from Eve, sure, but they couldn't be together if they were separated by spiritual death. Adam chose to be with Eve. Babies can be and are born immortal, and will yet be during the Millennium. Babies are not punished for their parents sins, as we know from the Article of Faith. Study Alma 12 and 42 intently. Awesome stuff!

Describe created for me...

So, since you're LDS, those quotes from the D&C and the Old Testament manual aren't evidence? Or, should I say, "enough" evidence?

You are made from the dust of the earth, also, John. And, there is symbolism in the Gospel, like partaking of the body and blood of Christ. I don't believe we really do that, it's just a symbol. The same applies here to God taking a rib from Adam to create Eve. Eve was made of the dust of the ground just as Adam was... just as you are. If you are to take it leterally, as you suggest, it says God created man and woman in His image... are you saying God is both male and female?

The cards are dealt randomly. That makes it uneven. I'm not saying skill doesn't play a part, but the "playing field" is not even at the start of each hand. You can quote statistics and progression over time, but I am talking about playing a game. Anything will balance out overtime. But, I'm saying the odds are not even once the cards have been dealt.

MeIRL... are you LDS? (just curious)

The idea isn't to average out the winnings, otherwise they'd pass out all the NFL teams Lombardi trophies now based on their odds of future winnings. Sports are different and unique each time, and so are card games. Each hand starts and is played out as a unique hand or game. So, you can't look at it as a bunch of statisical data, but what you do each time you play. The more luck involved at the beginning, like a random deal, the more it leans toward gambling. When things start off evenly, then it leans more toward skill.

There is a big difference between sports and gambling. If I must state it: Sports are played on equal ground. In Golf, for instance, everyone starts at the same place (or the place of their choosing in the tee box) and has to hit their ball into the same hole that lies the same distance away (give or take for handicaps). Cards or gambling never start off on even ground, and rely more on luck or chance to win (Bingo or slot machines). Argue all you want, but the fact that 52 different cards are dealt to random locations means its not even.

I believe they had the ability physically, they just didn't have the understanding. Evidence of this is found in Genesis where they hid themselves because they were naked. Before they partook of the fruit they didn't notice, care, or recognize that they were "naked." Just like you said about your young daughter, or even younger, there is no understanding until taught.

God knows everything required to bring about the salvation of His children. This must be truth. Dwell on this much of it and the other concerns go away.

If anyone reads JudoMinja's comments, and other comments like them found throughout this forum and on the net, and they are truly seeing the TRUTH, it seems impossible that they can't "see it." My only conclusion is that they aren't really looking for truth. A person must be willing to give up all that they accept as truth in order for the turth to be revealed. Isaiah said, speaking of our day, that the wisdon of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Wisdom can only perish when one disocers that what they thought was true really isn't. If people desire to hold on to what they know, and refuse to seriously ask and seek, the truth remains hidden. How? I don't know. How can something shinning as bright as the sun remain as dark as mid night to someone staring right at it? There's no doubt sin has something to do with it, or pride in one's self and beliefs at the very least. Darkness and light are interesting contrasts in the scriptures. Jesus calls light good works several times. The opposite would have to be true also. I'm just thankful that I see it.