Justice

I recognized them as I read them as Biblical quotes. I find it hard to believe that anyone who is familiar with the Bible won't see them right away. It's not that most Christians don't believe these words, it's that they interpret them differently. Maybe seeing them all together in this presentation will at least help them to see it CAN be interpreted more literally, but I doubt it will change anyone's mind. If only it were that simple... It's good to have all these quotes and verses compiled in one place. Thanks for the post.

I didn't read all the posts. I apologize if this has already been said. Murder and sexual sin both involve life. One involves the taking of life, while the other involves the creation of life. Life is the most precious gift we have been given. It's a no-brainer that they would go hand-in-hand at the top of the list like that.

Very good post. All I can say is "Amen, brother!" I wish I could add 10 thanks for that post.

This really is the key, isn't it? This is the same power he bestowed on His Apostles in the New Testament. He told them that whatsoever they would bind on earth would be bound in heaven, and whatsoever they would loose on earth would be loosed in heaven. I don't know a better way to describe the power to act in God's name. It's hard for people today to recognize a God'given power when they don't even see it being given to man in the Bible. What's interesting is how much people's view of religion today affects their interpretation of what' s in the Bible, written 2,000 years ago. This goes for LDS and non-LDS.

I've studied them all and I think they all tie together nicely. What specifically are you questioning?

Quite frankly, God does. When God has a covenant people on the earth that is the true religion.

Yeah, and Joseph Smith knew this with no study, no internet, no schooling, and no library near him. This belief fits right along with our belief in God and who He is.

I affirm my comments about truth, but apologize for my comments about what Elder Holland said. I assumed it was different than it was. I know better. You do have some good comments, and I hope you follow through with where this is leading you. All I'm trying to do by making a point about the difference between truth and plausibility is hoping you take the next step.

That sounds like a very good description of the Small Plates of Nephi, which is what Mormon was writing about and writing in (or added a plate to them). I think he was excited to find a record of that time period that was written by prophets and not kings, as he mentions a record of the prophets. All he had before was a record by the kings. I think he would have gladly pulled his abridgement of the kings records found in the Large Plates and replaced them with the writings of the prophets over the same time period.

You may find it plausible, but you will never come to know it's true by any of the things you mention. It's not about "being plausible." It's about truth. You will never come to know whether or not it is true unless you read and pray about the Book of Mormon with a believing heart and a strong desire to know if it's true, not whether or not it's plausible. If the Book of Mormon is true, and Elder Holland is an Apostle of the Lord, I'd guess his definition of the Godhead is more true than your definition of the trinity.

God moved upon the waters, or He moved to a location where water was present. Genesis 1: 2 ... And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Notice, God had not spoken yet and nothing had been created yet, because God created light in the first day, not water. He spoke to the water and the water obeyed. 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. ... 8 And God called the firmament Heaven... Much like when Christ spoke to the wind and sea and they obeyed. Mark 4: 41 And they feared exceedingly, and said one to another, What manner of man is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him? How much more of a pattern can you get? Moses divided the waters to reveal the dry land. Read the creation account and look for the symbolism. The symbolism runs much deeper than most people imagine, and deeper than anyone can fathom. In my estimation, to see God speak to elements and have them obey is pretty darn remarkable... not a down grade at all.

I don't think the Lord is telling him to start to translate the Large Plates. Joseph Smith never translated from the Large Plates, only Mormon's abridgement of them. What I'm saying is that I don't think the Lord is saying "Joseph Smith lost a translation from Lehi to King Benjamin from the plates of Mormon and now has to translate that exact same time period from the small plates". This is the theory most have. I don't get that in these words. Yep, I'm also not suggesting that they had more translated pages than 116, but it's possible with the wording. I'm not exactly sure what was retained or what it's talking about. It may not be speaking about anything that had been translated. Maybe the Lord took most of the plates from Him at this time and left him the Small Plates, knowing that's what he was going to translate next. I really don't know... I just have possibilities. Yes, it's clear this retained portion mentioned king Benjamin, and this is why people think the book of Lehi contained up to king Benjamin. They think the Lord is speaking about BOTH the book of Lehi and the Small Plates. I think I have shown He cannot be in every case. I don't think he did, or I don't think that's what this is trying to say. It could be, though. I'm still trying to understand exactly what's being said. Nope, my guess is if it was something already translated then it didn't, because it was from Mormon's abridgment of this time period. We don't have any of it. And, as I said, I'm wondering if this retained portion the Lord was speaking about was something Joseph actually translated. I'm thinking it wasn't. That's where this could be leading people astray, thinking the book of Lehi contained down until king Benjamin. I just think more study needs to be made in order to defintately say what was in the book of Lehi. In fact, the Lord makes some comments that can be taken that the book of Lehi did NOT contain anything down to king Benjamin. 41 Therefore, you shall translate the engravings which are on the plates of Nephi, down even till you come to the reign of king Benjamin, or until you come to that which you have translated, which you have retained; 42 And behold, you shall publish it as the record of Nephi; and thus I will confound those who have altered my words. "Publish it as the record of Nephi" sounds like it means 1st and 2nd Nephi, and NOT down until king Benjamin. This is where Nephi retold some of the things of his father. So, it makes sense. If he lost the translation of this time period and it was called the book of Lehi, this new translation wouldn't even be titled the same, which would "confound" those who altered the book of Lehi. But, ONLY Nephi wrote the words of Lehi in the Small Plates... we KNOW this because we have the translation of the Small plates. No one else tells Lehi's stories in the Small Plates. 43 I will not suffer that they shall destroy my work; yea, I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. 44 Behold, they have only got a part, or an abridgment of the account of Nephi. 45 Behold, there are many things engraven upon the plates of Nephi which do throw greater views upon my gospel; therefore, it is wisdom in me that you should translate this first part of the engravings of Nephi, and send forth in this work. Again, the Lord switches to "account" of Nephi and does not say "plates of Nephi" in reference to what Joseph would re-translate. It sounds as if He is speaking more specifically of 1st and 2nd Nephi, and not down until king Benjamin. Remember, Nephi is the ONLY common author between the Large and Small Plates between Nephi and king Benjamin. This language suggests a "retelling" of the same events, which Nephi alone did. The other kings probably would NOT have told of the same events as the rest of the Small Plate authors. And, the Lord said "you should translate this first part of the engravings of Nephi." Again, not a direct reference to ALL the Small Plates, but just to Nephi's portion of them. Nephi's portion is the only portion that re-tells Lehi's story... which book was lost. Anyway, I have a long way to go with this. But, the Lord is blessing me with new insights almost daily. Trust me, I couldn't come up with some of this stuff on my own. My only real question is what is this leading to.

So, if He did use existing matter and "build" the universe, how is that not creating?

If that were the case, then all Christains would believe you have to be baptized by immersion. In fact, not all Christians believe you have to be baptized. But, the Greek word baptize was translated from literally meant to immerse in water. There are places that can be interpreted as immersion, but it's not black and white like it is in the Book of Mormon. Go to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints Go to the on-line scriptures there and search the New Testament for baptize or baptism (or both) and see what turns up.

Read Alma. :)

OK, I'm back and excited to post my thoughts on these verses. I've been looking forward to this all day. Anything Book of Mormon is my favorite subject. Unfortunately, this gets complicated fast. It takes a careful study and a significant effort of seeing this through the eyes of the day in which the words were given. Joseph Smith, at this point, had not seen any of the plates of Nephi. All he had read from and translated from was the plates of Mormon. So, when God said "plates of Nephi" he wasn't being very specific as to which plates (large or small). I will show you in one instance where he could not have meant the Small Plates, even though it's the common assumption that He did. 38 And now, verily I say unto you, that an account of those things that you have written, which have gone out of your hands, is engraven upon the plates of Nephi; Did the Lord mean the Small Plates or the Large Plates, or generally ALL of the plates of Nephi? It's assumed, since Joseph Smith would next translate from the Small Plates, that the Lord meant the Small Plates. But, as I mentioned before, the account on the Large Plates, after Nephi, was written by the Kings and an account of that writing does not exist on the Small Plates. The only account that might be on the Small Plates that was on the Large Plates is what Nephi wrote, since he wrote on both sets. He also wrote the things of his father, so the Lord could also mean the things of Lehi that were lost but preserved on the Small Plates. This sounds very logical to me. 39 Yea, and you remember it was said in those writings that a more particular account was given of these things upon the plates of Nephi. This verse is the backbone of my argument. The Lord told Joseph Smith that he (Joseph) remembered what was said in "those writings." The Lord could have only meant what Joseph Smith had read and/or translated. That was a translation of Mormon's abridgement of the Large Plates. Mormon wrote that a "more particular account was given" on the "other plates." When Mormon was abridging the Large Plates he had not even discovered the Small Plates yet. He tells us he did not even find them until AFTER he finished his abridgement and was about to give his abridgement to Moroni. WoM: 3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi. So, Mormon didn't even know about the Small Plates when he wrote "a more particular account was given of these things upon the plates of Nephi." So, Mormon had to mean the Large Plates. How does that change the verses? Frankly, I don't exactly know yet. However, I do think that these verses do not definately mean Joseph Smith translated from Lehi to King Benjamin and then the Lord made him translate the Small Plates because he lost them. There's more that needs to be understood. The verses that discuss this go through verse 45. It's easy to speed read it and assume it's always talking about the Small Plates, and that Nephi originally translated from Lehi to King Benjamin. But, words like this make me stop and ponder: 41 Therefore, you shall translate the engravings which are on the plates of Nephi, down even till you come to the reign of king Benjamin, or until you come to that which you have translated, which you have retained; What does this mean? What is the Lord referring to Joseph Smith having "retained?" It almost sounds like the 116 pages wasn't ALL that they translated at that point. 44 Behold, they have only got a part, or an abridgment of the account of Nephi. 45 Behold, there are many things engraven upon the plates of Nephi which do throw greater views upon my gospel; therefore, it is wisdom in me that you should translate this first part of the engravings of Nephi, and send forth in this work. Knowing that "the Plates of Nephi" does not always refer to the Small Plates in these verses can change what the Lord might be saying. SO, I'm going to continue studying these things and hopefully I can find more places where these things are discussed. I'm not going to take the word of all the professors at BYU that think "plates of Nephi" in these verses always means the Small Plates. I wonder if they even considered that Mormon didn't even know about the Small Plates when he made his abridgement of the Large Plates?

Yep. I have read these verses over and over trying to see what exactly is being said. These words, from Joseph Smith's point of view, can be either theory. It does seem to favor the theory that the Book of Lehi contained the writings of the Kings from Nephi until King Benjamin. But, if you really look at the words, they may be saying something else. Leaving for work soon, but I'll explain later.

Here's what I think. Nephi made the plates spoken of in the Book of Mormon. That much is clear. Since we don't have the Book of Lehi, we don't know what Lehi wrote on. I'm guessing he wrote on various media types that were available in Jerusalem. He probably wrote on papyrus, leather, writing boards, and maybe even plates. Papyrus, leather, or wax wouldn't be readily available to Nephi once they left Jerusalem. The way I see it, Nephi compiled or abridged his father's writings into the first Book on the Large Plates of Nephi, and called it the Book of Lehi. He also wrote in both the Large and Small Plates. Now, when Nephi wrote on the Large Plates, he didn't need to include ANY of his father's writings or sayings in his own book(s) there, because there was a compiled Book of Lehi. But, the Lord knew at a future day it would be lost. So, he had Nephi start a 2nd record in which he did not have a Book of Lehi, so he included some of his father's highlights, like his dream, and his trip out of Jerusalem. Now, all someone had to do later (Mormon) was remove the books of Nephi up through King Benjamin from the Large Plates, replace them with Nephi's Small Plates, and Lehi's writings would be preserved when the Book of Lehi was lost. If Mormon did not make this switch, then we wouldn't have any of Lehi's writings today. The Lord had Nephi make the Small Plates for a "wise purpose." I believe this was it. (Yes there are scriptures supporting this, but it's late)

I don't think they're one in the same, and that's what the current theory pre-supposes. Nephi, and others, call the Large Plates "the Plates of Nephi" throughout the Book of Mormon. I think it's one of the following: Nephi, and the other kings, continued the Book of Lehi on the Plates of Nephi (Large Plates) up until King Benjamin. or Mormon removed the duplicate record when he inserted the Small Plates, leaving the Book of Lehi and from King Benjamin to 4th Nephi. I believe the latter. Mainly it's the wording in Words of Mormon. Words of Mormon: 1 And now I, Mormon, being about to deliver up the record which I have been making into the hands of my son Moroni, behold I have witnessed almost all the destruction of my people, the Nephites. Clearly this is after the great battle at Cumorah. Mormon buried the Large Plates of Nephi, and all the other plates that had been passed down to him, before this battle took place (Mormon 6:6). 2 And it is many hundred years after the coming of Christ (about AD 385) that I deliver these records into the hands of my son; and it supposeth me that he will witness the entire destruction of my people. But may God grant that he may survive them, that he may write somewhat concerning them, and somewhat concerning Christ, that perhaps some day it may profit them. 3 And now, I speak somewhat concerning that which I have written; (his abridgement of the Large Plates) for after I had made an abridgment from the plates of Nephi, down to the reign of this king Benjamin, of whom Amaleki spake, I searched among the records which had been delivered into my hands, and I found these plates, which contained this small account of the prophets, from Jacob down to the reign of this king Benjamin, and also many of the words of Nephi. "These Plates" clearly refers to the plates he found, and was then writing in (since they were full, the logical answer is he added a plate to bridge the gap between the small plates and the large plates). 4 And the things which are upon these plates (Small Plates) pleasing me, because of the prophecies of the coming of Christ; and my fathers knowing that many of them have been fulfilled; yea, and I also know that as many things as have been prophesied concerning us down to this day have been fulfilled, and as many as go beyond this day must surely come to pass— 5 Wherefore, I chose these things, to finish my record upon them, which remainder of my record I shall take from the plates of Nephi; and I cannot write the hundredth part of the things of my people. It sounds to me like he's saying he made a choice. He picked the Small Plates over the abridgement he made of the Large Plates down until the reign of King Benjamin. Since the Small Plates did not have a Book of Lehi, he left the Book of Lehi (lost 116 pages). And, to be clear, he restates what he's doing: 6 But behold, I shall take these plates (Small Plates), which contain these prophesyings and revelations, and put them with the remainder of my record, for they are choice unto me; and I know they will be choice unto my brethren. Notice the way he uses remainder, as previously defined in the previous verse. It sure sounds to me like "remainder" is "everything else other than what I chose here" instead of "all my other abridgement, including down to the reign of King Benjamin." I reads more like he's replacing that time period instead of giving 2 accounts of the time period. 7 And I do this for a wise purpose; for thus it whispereth me, according to the workings of the Spirit of the Lord which is in me. And now, I do not know all things; but the Lord knoweth all things which are to come; wherefore, he worketh in me to do according to his will. I have more evidence and logic than this, but this really should be enough.

And, yes, I didn't mean to imply that Nephi did not write in them, I just assumed that was a given.

It's my understanding that Nephi either compiled or abridged the writings of his father into a book which he included in the Large Plates. Mormon then abridged that book when he abridged the Large Plates. In his preface to the first (1830) edition, Joseph Smith wrote that these were "taken from the Book of Lehi, which was an account abridged from the plates of Lehi, by the hand of Mormon. …” (title page.) Many people, including scholars and BYU professors, believe the 116 pages of lost manuscript contained a record of Lehi up until King Benjamin, and that it was called the Book of Lehi. This is how they account for the fact that we don't have the writing of these kings named Nephi in the Book of Mormon today, or that we don't have that time period duplicated. I think Mormon tells us that he "chose" or replaced his abridgement of the same time period that the Small Plates covered when he "inserted" them into his abridgement of the Large Plates. I think that he pulled his abridgement from Nephi up until King Benjamin, and inserted the Small Plates between Lehi and King Benjamin. I think the Book of Lehi was only what Joseph Smith claimed it to be, the Book of Lehi. I think that is the explanation for why we don't have a duplicate of that time period. I would be glad to show you the scriptures I used to reach this conclusion. I edited my original statement. I did not mean that Moroni abridged the Book of Lehi, but that Mormon did. You seemed to understand what I meant. :)

I agree with changed as well, except that I don't think "always" includes the time after the apostasy, until Joseph Smith. I believe changed meant the Biblical period when he said "always."

Have you ever considered who authored the Large Plates of Nephi between the time of Nephi, son of Lehi, and King Benjamin? I never really gave it much thought before, and I suppose I've just always assumed it was the same authors who wrote the Small Plates (Jacob, Enos, Jarom, Omni, Amaron, Chemish, Abinadom, and Amaleki) since Nephi wrote in both. But, I was reading today at lunch time and I discovered some interesting things that have changed my mind. Words of Mormon 1: 9 And now I, Mormon, proceed to finish out my record, which I take from the plates of Nephi (Large Plates); and I make it according to the knowledge and the understanding which God has given me. 10 Wherefore, it came to pass that after Amaleki had delivered up these plates (Small Plates) into the hands of king Benjamin, he (King Benjamin) took them and put them with the other plates (Large Plates), which contained records which had been handed down by the kings, from generation to generation until the days of king Benjamin. So, the Small Plates and the Large Plates were brought back together, or owned or kept by the same person again (king Benjamin), like they were when Nephi had them. The Small Plates were handed to Jacob: Jacob 1: 1 For behold, it came to pass that fifty and five years had passed away from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; wherefore, Nephi gave me, Jacob, a commandment concerning the small plates, upon which these things are engraven. Notice, no commandment or even mention of the Large Plates. 2 And he gave me, Jacob, a commandment that I should write upon these plates (Small Plates) a few of the things which I considered to be most precious; that I should not touch, save it were lightly, concerning the history of this people which are called the people of Nephi. 3 For he said that the history of his people should be engraven upon his other plates (Large Plates), and that I should preserve these plates (Small Plates) and hand them down unto my seed, from generation to generation. Jacob said that Nephi TOLD him the history of the people would be engraven on the other plates, but that he, Jacob, should preserve the Small Plates. Jacob didn't know what was written on the Large Plates, Nephi told him. Nephi did not tell Jacob to keep the other record. Jacob gives us more evidence: 9 Now Nephi began to be old, and he saw that he must soon die; wherefore, he anointed a man to be a king and a ruler over his people now, according to the reigns of the kings. 10 The people having loved Nephi exceedingly, he having been a great protector for them, having wielded the sword of Laban in their defence, and having labored in all his days for their welfare— 11 Wherefore, the people were desirous to retain in remembrance his name. And whoso should reign in his stead were called by the people, second Nephi, third Nephi, and so forth, according to the reigns of the kings; and thus they were called by the people, let them be of whatever name they would. 12 And it came to pass that Nephi died. It seems clear to me that Nephi gave the Large Plates to King Nephi the II, and they passed them down from king to king until they came to king Benjamin, which the people presumably called King Nephi the ??. Amaleki, descendant of Jacob, gave King Benjamin the Small Plates. Omni 1: 25 And it came to pass that I (Amaleki) began to be old; and, having no seed, and knowing king Benjamin to be a just man before the Lord, wherefore, I shall deliver up these plates (Small Plates) unto him... So, the authors of the Large Plates of Nephi were King Nephi the 2nd, the 3rd, the 4th, down until King Benjamin, where King Benjamin only wrote in the Large Plates. The Small Plates were full. From that time forward the Large Plates contained both the history of the people (wars and government) and the spiritual matters. This is a continuation of a study I have undertaken to learn more about the Large and Small Plates of Nephi. For those who have followed, I believe Mormon pulled part of his translation of the Large Plates (from Jacob to King Benjamin) and replaced it with the Small Plates. I believe Mormon added a plate to the Small Plates to bridge the record, where we now have Words of Mormon. Most people believe the lost 116 pages of manuscript was Mormon's abridgement of Lehi up to King Benjamin from the Large Plates. I believe the lost manuscript was simply the Book of Lehi. It doesn't make sense to me why the record of the kings and government would be smaller than the Small Plates. In any case, I believe I have shown that the authors were different. Any comments?

I think the quote is saying God has the right to do so, and the nation should heed God's voice. I consider both of those things true. But, clearly God will speak through His chosen vessels. The error people make is assuming the Church is here just for the members.

Yep, it was and I didn't even use any of it. Was a good thing to learn, but not for Sacrament meeting. Thanks Judo.