Justice

This is frequently thought by people who don't understand or agree with a theory. But, I assure you, there is no need to go out on a limb with this one. Do you mean why is she not mentioned specifically? Well, isn't that the purpose of this discussion? So many questions. Perhaps it's best to concentrate on one thing at a time? The fate of the Mother was the same as that of the Father. Neither of them dwell here. It does not mean they died... it just means they aren't here any more. That mother had only 1 immortal child on this earth, 2 if you count Eve, but there are worlds without number to us. I believe each needed starting seed. Therefore, to us, she had so many children that we couldn't number them. When did I say it was impossible? All I said is that that would make us a "creation" like every other living thing, and not a "creation" like offspring. We have very gifted artisans on earth. They make art from their heart's desire. Why do they not call them their offspring? Our spirits are literally children of God. Our physical bodies are made in His image and likeness, both male and female. The Bible says God created the animals and trees and such, but He did not create them from nothing. He caused them to reproduce after their kind, and He "planted" them on this earth, the first of their kind on this earth. Many people believe like you do. Yep, it certainly could have. Nothing changes. I think what is adding confusion is the fall. We became mortal because of the fall. We died as to things that are spirtual and must be reborn. We were separated from our Heavenly Parents by the fall. I don't believe there was ever a man born that didn't have a mother. It just makes too much sense to me that way. I see the evidence in the scriptures, and I just believe it to be true. I certainly can't quote you a series of scriptures and prove it. If it were that easy everyone would believe it.

All he's doing is forcing his belief into the text. We all do it. But, I was about to mention what you already mentioned, bytebear, that babies do not sin immediately upon birth. They are born into a world where they will eventually choose to sin. God, in His wisdom, knows this. You have to look at reality, the way things really are, and then use that to understand what's being said. David was NOT saying he sinned right from the womb, but that he chose to be sinful at a young age. Obviously David did not remember his birth and know how he felt... sinful or otherwise. He was looking at his life as a whole and felt guilty for his choices. John, if David sinned because of a nature he could not overcome, why would he feel guilty for doing what he had to do? I feel guilty because I choose to sin, and I know I didn't have to. That's what remorse is all about. That's what repentance is all about. We promise to make wiser choices. If I believed I had to sin, or that I don't have a choice, then I wouldn't feel guilty about it. If we are forced to sin by our nature, how can we feel remorse or repent? Again, I know you don't get it yet, but your misinterpretation of the Bible is filling your head with false beliefs. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We do not believe the Bible is translated perfectly, nor do we believe it is complete. Therefore, we use modern scripture, along with the words of modern prophets, to understand the Bible as it was written, not as it was translated. Logic and common sense are all you need to get you past this one. If sin nature were forced on us, no matter what we did, then we would not be accountable for what we do, and therefore, we could not sin. Sin requires a choice. The fact David recognizes himself as sinful means he recognizes he chose to sin, otherwise there would be no guilt or remorse on his part. Plain and simple, that's the truth. You still haven't explained how one can be forced to sin by a "sin nature" we can not override by choice, yet be responsible for what we do. Please explain if sin is not a conscience choice we make how can we be held accountable? It's like being held accountable for a sin because we were born with blue eyes or blonde hair. It really makes no sense to me, so you're going to have to explain it to me.

Again, you misinterpret what was being said. This does not say the baby was sinful, it says the mother was. I don't know how his conception happened, but David thought it was in sin. It says he was "brought forth" in iniquity and "in sin did [his] mother conceive [him]." Where does this say David was sinful? How does the fact that a mother brings forth a child in sin have any bearing on whether or not the baby is sinful? You're saying ALL babies are brought forth in sin? Even those babies conceived by a legally wedded mother and father? C'mon, you have to admit that doesn't make any sense. All I ask is that you think about it. If you have a good answer, please share. You can disregard these other translations, they are made by people who believe like you trying to make the words say what they believe. They are not an accurate translation. All mankind were born sinners? So, we have no choice? That's just man's way of justifying his sinful choices to make him feel better about himself. The restored Gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us that we have a choice.

So you don't believe in an age of accountability. You confused me because you said you did (or might). So, you do believe in a sin nature that we can't overcome. We must sin because of our "sin nature." That means we are not accountable because there was nothing we could do. We were forced. We do not have a choice. Why didn't you just say so? There is one thing about this belief I have yet to understand. Maybe you can explain how we can have a sin nature that we can't overcome and at the same time be accountable, since it's not a choice, it's a must... How can we be held accountable when sin if forced on us and we have no choice?

What exactly do you mean by "born in sin?" I'm confused because you say babies aren't accountable, yet they are born in sin. Accountability is required in order to sin. Sin is a choice; without a choice there is no sin. So, please explain how we can be born in sin if we are not accountable when we're born.

The Holy Spirit witnessed truth to you. :)

Oh, and if a man has a sin nature it is because he chose it. I am not trying to say "sin nature" does not exist.

And, as far as your use of Romans 5: 12 to prove your point, you are mis-interpreting it. 12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Read it close, and set aside the erronious interpretation you've been taught, or arrived at yourself. "by one man sin entered the world" This does not mean sin is forced on all who enter the world, as many suppose. It means that because Adam fell, evil entered the world, and now both good and evil are present. It goes on to say that since all men have sinned, death was passed to all men. Again, this does not mean all men were forced to sin, it means no man could choose not to die since they chose to sin. Christ is the only One who did not choose sin, and He overcame death. Follow me closely here. Since Christ did not choose to sin, He overcame death... and in some way incomprehensible to us, He is able to pass this on to all. This verse does not preclude choice, as many suppose it does. There is no sin nature that cannot be overcome by choice. Christ proved it.

I think he's trying to get at "sin nature" as many Christians believe we inherited from Adam. If he's not, he's getting very close. This makes sense since he's using only one (his) interpretation of the Bible. Moroni 7 explains this dilemma better than any other scripture, imo: 16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. 17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. There is no 3rd option. We are placed in a world with good and evil. God made the good, and Satan twisted the good into evil, and now evil exists also. When a man is born into the world he is enticed by both sides. Satan uses addiction to try to force people to choose his side. Christ invites with peace and love. Without modern scripture you will spend the rest of your life spinning your wheels in search of this answer. We sin because we have free agency and choose it. We are not forced to by a nature or else we would not be responsible. If we were forced into sin by a nature then we wouldn't have agency, would we? You cannot have both. Since you already said you agree we have agency, then you must also believe there is no sin nature that we are forced to obey. Do you agree that we are responsible for our actions? If you do, then you must concede we are only responsible because we are accountable for the choice. And, again, then it was not a nature impossible to overcome, but a choice. If you do not think we are responsible, then I ask you to explain why the atonement was necessary. Because they choose to. It's not complicated.

Sure. But, we're not the ones that branded ourselves "not Christian," that was done by other Christians. In the general sense all who believe in Christ and try to follow Him are Christians. But, there are many different beliefs among those Christinas as to who He is. That's the point we're making when we say there are many different Christians religions.

That's like saying "other than the fact I painted it red, what don't you like about the color?" Not really, but kinda. That's an inside joke. To answer your question, I have no idea. I think the reason you choose not to serve a mission is the issue. I can only guess that this decision will affect other areas of your life as well. To be blunt, it has to. So, that's why I threw in it's up to you. Just something to think about.

I would say the chances aren't very high. There's no hard rule, as has been mentioned, but certain indicators in one's life help determine worthiness, or perhaps more propely put, readiness. I'd say it entirely depends on you.

And, by the way, the use of the term "born again Christian" is not something LDS invented. I don't even like the term, personally, becausje it carries the "once saved, always saved" connotation with it (even though that may not be true in every instance). But, many people I know of certain Christian faiths use this term for themselves. It seems only appropriate that if they use the term for themselves that we, too, can use that term for them. I'm a little puzzled how you can think there are not different Christian religions in the world. Each go to their own different churches on Sunday and teach the Gospel according to what they believe. The beliefs are NOT the same. In fact, at the VERY least there are 3 different Christian religions: Catholic, Protestant, and LDS. None of the 3 fit the definition of the other.

I can support this claim. Now, it may not be that every instance I have been involved in was specifically from the book of James, but I have been dealt very harshly with in many instances by ministers when discussing the Gospel. If you have done any amount of discussing or debating religion you must know it often gets heated when people feel their beliefs are being challenged. I have seen many LDS do the same, so I'm not saying born again Christians are the only ones who do it. But, all who do it should admit it's not what Christ would want. I don't think it's necessary to explain details of the experiences I had. I just wanted to say I have definately witnessed what was claimed.

Very interesting reads, changed. Something to ponder about. Thank you. Buried in your words is the message that without modern revelation there are some things that are very difficult to see in the Bible. We are told that earthly things are made to remind us of heavenly things. If any honest seeker of truth opens their mind and ponders it for a while, they will see that God is our Father in Heaven, and therefore, we have a Mother in Heaven. It does not get any simpler than that. It's not spelled out in the scriptures (Bible or Book of Mormon) in as many words, but the symbolism is everywhere, starting with the fact that all species of life have male and female. God "created" man after His image; in His likeness, both male and female. The pattern couldn't be more clear. That God is alone is such a dismal thought. The entire Christian world accepts that He has a Son but refuses to accept that He has a wife. You can't have a son without a mother. John, forget about what you've been taught and just think about it. There is a movie I enjoy called The Forbidden Kingdom. A kung-fu master is trying to teach a young man kung-fu. This student has watched kung-fu movies and read about it in books his entire life, but he didn't know how to use what he had learned. He was a walking encyclopedia about king-fu but never learned to apply it. One night as the master was pouring hot water into the boy's cup, he kept pouring after it was full and the cup began to run over. The boy said, "OK it's full!" The master told him that he was like that cup. He said it was impossible for him to teach him king-fu because his mind was already full. He told him he needed to "empty his cup" before he can learn. This is a perfect analogy for how many people try to learn about the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. Their minds are already so full of what they interpret the Gospel to be, they don't allow the truth to freely enter. John, that is you, my friend. Empty your cup.

John, you're picking and choosing what you want to believe also. Luke 3: 38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. In Adam's geneaology it says he is the son of God. I have showed you other places where it says this as well. Both must agree. So, you have to interpret one or the other. I have told you, and posted modern scripture, where we fell and died spiritually. If you are not re-born in Christ then, yes, you remain a child of who you serve. There is some symbolism in this, and analogy. You have to choose what you want to believe. As I already told you, you're not going to understand modern revelation if you keep comparing back to what you are misinterpreting from the Bible.

Again, without the light of modern scripture and the additional witness of the Book of Mormon, I'd say these truths are near impossible to see in the Bible. It's all in your interpretation of those words. Remember that we passed through the fall, which brought spiritual death, or separation from God. Death does not mean the same thing to God as it does to us. There is no "cease to exist" like we think it means. If you test your understanding of "death" against the teaching that we are children (offspring) of God, follow it though the fall (spiritual DEATH), and then rebirth through Christ, we ARE adopted back into the family of God because of Christ. We are "spiritually reborn" through an in Christ. Modern scripture: Moses 6: 59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory; 60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified; So, we're back to square one. This is what I warned you about in the other thread. You can't rely on what you know and interpret from the Bible, because, frankly and bluntly, you are wrong but you don't see it. I think you do very well without modern revelation. I have no idea where I'd be in life or what I would believe without the Book of Mormon and modern prophets. Probably not as close to Christ as you are.

This topic can get deep fast, but is the most logical thing I've ever heard (that there is a Mother in Heaven). I see them having different roles in the perfecting of their children. It seems Father deals more with mortality, while Mother [probably] deals more with pre-mortality. Different roles, or responsibilities, where both are required, yet work together for the same end. I don't want to say too much, but it is very logical why men have the priesthood and deal with mortality. It is out of necessity, not choice.

Yes. It's dependant on many things, but it can consist of: No sacrament No temple recommend No callings No prayers at church No speaking assignments And in rare cases people can have their ability to pay tithing revoked (find that in other churches). This isn't a comprehensive list. There will also be a list of things they want you TO do, but you can guess what those might be. Pretty basic stuff like say your prayers, read certain books dealing with certain topics, fasting, reading scriptures daily...

The Stake leaders have to get involved when a council is called for a Melchezidek Priesthood holder. The Bishop is the president of the Aaronic Priesthood, the Stake President is the president of the Melchezidek Priesthood. If you're seeking forgiveness, it's often easy to doubt yourself and the feelings you have about whether or not you repented properly. But, when a council is called it resolves all concern, and when the determined repentance steps have been followed as outlined, it brings a peace and assurance that you are rid of it once and for all. If you are struggling with abstaining from the sin, or feeling forgiven from the sin, then a council is a very valid option.

We look forward TO you posting! Welcome.

Long post Crimson, but well worth the time to read. (I just had a thought: Me accusing someone of making a long post is like Bill Gates calling someone rich :) )

Traveler, isn't it interesting that redemption from physical death was available to Adam and Eve for a short time? (Alma 12 and 42) In discussing choices, I believe this may be one of the greatest choices ever made (the one alluded to in Alma 12 and 42) that was not written in scripture. It appears to me that Adam and Eve made the choice NOT to partake of the tree of life at that time, after they ate the forbidden fruit, and chose God's plan to enter mortality... outside the Garden. It says God caused a cherubim and flaming sword to guard the tree of life AFTER He removed them from the Garden. This also could be part of the reason Adam and Eve are honored and respected for making the choice. It's speculation; I remember no quotes from GAs to offer to substantiate my theory, just my feelings. But, Alma is clear that it was Satan's plan for them to eat the tree of life immediately after they ate the forbidden fruit. It sure makes many details of the story fall into place.

I found a bit of useless trivia in my reading this week (yes, I'm reading Genesis again): Genesis 7: 11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. So, the flood began on what we know as February 17th. I'm not sure how the different calendars all coordinate over the years, but as I study things like this I am always amazed at how accurate they were maintained over time.

I am a seeker of truth. I am convinced I have found it. Truth is defined as things as they were, as they are, and as they will be. Many don't believe in an absolute truth. They believe truth can be changed based on your perception. God knows things as they were, as they are, and as they will be. When He reveals those truths to man, they are truth absolutely. It doesn't matter who believes, or how many believe. The majority can never decide truth. To me, it's all about truth, or things as they are according to God's knowledge. The Book of Mormon IS another testament of Jesus Christ. It tells me definately, as a second witness to the Bible, that Jesus is the Christ. No other religion has that second witness. No other religion can claim: D&C 76: 22 And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! 23 For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father— 24 That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God. You can argue your opinions about the true nature of God with anyone, but one who has seen Him, and has been schooled and taught by Him, will know the truth about Him.