Justice

The only one, Snow, is the timing of when the tree withered. And, as has been stated, one story evolved from someone who saw it immediately, while the other evolved from someone who didn't see it until the next day. (I don't know if that's the answer, but it is a possible answer... just as viable as claiming discrepency)

Also interesting is that the people of Ammon, or those who covenanted not to fight, were largely made up of those who were Lamanites and then converted. I'm not sure what this means, other than they were presented with the other option and made their choice already. This is symbolism that they did not need to make the choice again, and therefore all they needed was a body. But, that they were once Lamanites is a mystery. Obviously, they weren't in the pre-mortal existence, but perhaps is reference to them having full knowledge of both sides (greater intelligence) and made a choice. So, we have to be careful understanding this imagery. Alma and Mormon are using actual events to teach of other things. So, symbols were definately used.

Well, the waters of Sidon is the turn-around point. It is probably much like the large river of water in Lehi's dream. It led to the tree of life, but also separated it from the large and spacious building. It seems to have separated those who chose mortality and a redeemer over those who didn't. Speculation, obviously. Also, the "1/3" of the hosts of heaven doesn't necessarily mean 1/3 in number. I believe it merely represented 1 of 3 sides. The number was great, for sure, and may have very well been 1/3 of the total or more. Notice here in Alma 43 where it talks about how the war started: (Sidenote: I had always heard that one day Father knew we couldn't progress any more so He sought to forward the plan. I don't buy that. It had to be something else, because some of His spirit children were "older" than others. Why did some get more "time" to progress before earth life? I always felt there was more to it) Alma 43: 13 And the people of Ammon did give unto the Nephites a large portion of their substance to support their armies; and thus the Nephites were compelled, alone, to withstand against the Lamanites, who were a compound of Laman and Lemuel, and the sons of Ishmael, and all those who had dissented from the Nephites, who were Amalekites and Zoramites, and the descendants of the priests of Noah. 14 Now those descendants were as numerous, nearly, as were the Nephites; and thus the Nephites were obliged to contend with their brethren, even unto bloodshed. They weren't "obliged" to contend with them until they reached a significant number... nearly as large as they were. So, here are the 3 sides: 1. Those who covenated not to fight 2. Nephites 3. Lamanites, Lemuelites, Ishmaelites, Amalekites, Zoramites, and the descendants of the priests of Noah When in history have you ever seen a evil side of a war advance against the righteous side with significantly less people? Typically they are cowards and only advance when their numbers are "sufficient." This theory makes MUCH more sense! Father had to initiate His plan and create the earth because sides were taken and choices were made! We were ready! All it says is that the disenters were nearly as numerous as the Nephites. We don't know how many chose not to fight, but the remainder was split in about 1/2. It lends itself to being 1/3 - 1/3 - 1/3 split... but from this, it all depends on how many entered a covenant of peace. I have yet to find any indication of how many this may have been. Please share if you find something.

There are many scriptures that say Satan sought to destroy the souls or spirits of men. This has to be taken in context. We are taught that a spirit (sometimes called soul in scripture) can never be destroyed. Alma 42: 9 Therefore, as the soul could never die, and the fall had brought upon all mankind a spiritual death as well as a temporal, that is, they were cut off from the presence of the Lord, it was expedient that mankind should be reclaimed from this spiritual death. The word death is often called destroy in scripture, just as the terms are used synonymously above. When the scriptures speak of the destruction of the soul it means separation from God. When the body dies it is because it was separated from the thing which gives it life, or from the spirit of a man. When the spirit dies it is because it is separated from the thing that gives it life, or our Father in Heaven and Jehova. So, death is but a separation. God's plan is in place to grow and exalt His children. When separated from Him one can not grow or be exalted. It's progress is halted or damned, and not destroyed as in cease to exist. Thjis is why there is an eternal outer darkness for sons of perdition, because they can't cease to exist. With this understanding it's easier to see what might be meant in those verses. I think it means those who entered this covenant were allowed to come to earth because I relate that wilderness to the large field in Lehi's dream.

VERY GOOD! Man, it's such a relief when someone "gets it" like you 2 have. This is the 3rd time I've tried posting this on these forums and it seems all I get is contempt! Connie, my answer is I don't know. I also thought it was interesting that those of Lucifer's followers who entered this covenant of peace departed into the wilderness. I don't really know the symbolism for this yet. It could be that they were allowed to come to earth. If you read these chapters with Lehi and Nephi's dream of the tree of life, and relate the wilderness to the valley they wandered through in the mists of darkness, it could be related. However, I don't know. Very good question though.

Just set the DVR to record it. I'll let you know when I watch it. I'm very much looking forward to it.

Some of the wisest words in scripture were spoken by Eve: Moses 5: 11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. At first glance this scripture seems very ordinary. But, her use of the word seed is not limited to food, but also offspring and the word of God. Very enlightening.

How about this: Alma 43: 44 And they were inspired by the Zoramites and the Amalekites, who were their chief captains and leaders, and by Zerahemnah, who was their chief captain, or their chief leader and commander; yea, they did fight like dragons, and many of the Nephites were slain by their hands, yea, for they did smite in two many of their head-plates, and they did pierce many of their breastplates, and they did smite off many of their arms; and thus the Lamanites did smite in their fierce anger. If you read the verses before and after this verse, it's clear this is a symbol of Lucifer and his followers.

No one watched this?!

Some of the greatest chapters found in the Book of Mormon are when Alma and his sons are preaching. Thousands upon thousands of Lamanites are usually converted when they preach. To anyone studying chapters 43 and 44 looking for the importance of what the war(s) can teach us need look no further than here: Alma 43: 1 And now it came to pass that the sons of Alma did go forth among the people, to declare the word unto them. And Alma, also, himself, could not rest, and he also went forth. 2 Now we shall say no more concerning their preaching, except that they preached the word, and the truth, according to the spirit of prophecy and revelation; and they preached after the holy order of God by which they were called. 3 And now I return to an account of the wars between the Nephites and the Lamanites, in the eighteenth year of the reign of the judges. Here was another opportunity to include MORE of Alma and his sons preaching. What additional stories could have been included in the Book of Mormon if Mormon followed this mission of Alma and his sons? Yet, Mormon feels it more important to return to the account of the wars. We could have a long discussion about how significant this is. When our Stake split last year (2 years ago now), Elder Bednar presided. It only makes sense since the Stake he used to be President over was splitting. He held an adult Fireside Saturday night and spoke to the adults of the Stake. He opened his Book of Mormon and had everyone follow along. He made a comment that stuck with me. He said the wars in the Book of Mormon were not included to give a body count or show us the bloodshed. They are included to teach us spiritual things. This was intriguing to me. But, I just didn't see what he was talking about. Later the following year I read the Book of Mormon 4 times in 2 months. I'm sure you remember me mentioning this, and that I have my kids reading it once in 16 days. The 3rd time through, when I came across the above passage it hit me like a ton of bricks. The red flag went up. WOW, I said, this is one of those times! So, I read chapters 43 and 44 over and over intently, then all of the sudden, it hit me. All I'm saying is give it a chance. Pray about it. Study it. It's there. It really is.

I line next to the verse I want to highlight with a bold vertical line instead of coloring over the text itself.

I have a 10 page document full of them, but I'm very curious to see what others come up with. Thanks JudoMinja!

Tithing is not meant to be a burden, but a blessing. Blessings will come as you begin to pay an honest tithe. Just pick up where you left off. :)

OK. Now read Alma 43 and 44... and you will see all 3 groups from the pre-mortal existence. Nephites represent "us" or those who came to earth to gain a body and dwell here... engaged in the war. Captain Moroni is symbolic of Jehova. Lamanites represent those who sided with Lucifer and did not gain a body, but came to earth to dwell. Zerahemnah is symbolic of Lucifer. The third group? The anti-Nephi-Lehis... those who were under covenant not to take up their weapons of war. These already made and kept their covenants (it appears). Interesting what is said of Zerahemnah: Alma 43: 8 For behold, his designs were to stir up the Lamanites to anger against the Nephites; this he did that he might usurp great power over them, and also that he might gain power over the Nephites by bringing them into bondage. He usurped great power over the "Lamanites" because those are the ones who willingly followed him. He sought to gain power over those that wouldn't follow him willingly, or the Nephites, or he wanted to remove our choice or agency. What a powerful one-line statmenet of Satan and his purpose. There are many, many gems buried in these verses. Here's another near the end of the war: Alma 44: 12 And now when Moroni had said these words, Zerahemnah retained his sword, and he was angry with Moroni, and he rushed forward that he might slay Moroni; but as he raised his sword, behold, one of Moroni’s soldiers smote it even to the earth, and it broke by the hilt; and he also smote Zerahemnah that he took off his scalp and it fell to the earth. And Zerahemnah withdrew from before them into the midst of his soldiers. As near as I can tell in the parallel, swords are words. Think about it while you read. Keep in mind who Moroni and Zerahemnah are symbolic of. Moroni's soldier has to be symbolic of Michael, the one who cast Lucifer from the spirit world to the earth without a body. His authority (hilt of his sword) was cast to earth... as was his scalp. What could scalp represent? Well, the scalp is located on the crown of the head. I wonder what a crown would be symbolic of, and did Lucifer's fall to the earth? Anyway, I'd be interested to see what others see in this war and how it relates to the war in heaven. I have found many, many parallels.

Messiah - Behold The Lamb Of God UGH! I missed it! I didn't think it was airing until January. I'm going to set my DVR to record it when it airs again, or I'll buy the DVDs. Did anyone watch it, and if so what did you think?

Do you believe there were some who were so valiant that all they needed was a body? If not, I'll have to look up the quotes. If you do, where do they enter in your picture? Why must the 3rd group be less valiant than "us?" Why can't those who were so valiant that all they needed was a body be the 3rd group? Jehova was speaking to the noble and great ones (I'm offering that it's speaking of the ones who only needed a body and would not need to actually "dwell" on earth) Abraham 3: 22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell; 25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them; 26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. Doesn't this read like the "noble and great ones" were the 3rd group? Could "these" (not noble and great ones) not be speaking about those (the 2nd group) who did not side with Lucifer, but wanted to come to earth and gain a body and be tested? Why can't this be seen as a "2nd" chance for those who needed to dwell on earth, or a test, instead of the ONLY way it could be done? Didn't the noble and great ones (those who did not need a body) already show us it *could have* been done in the pre-mortal existence? Don't we know it can be done in the post-mortal spirit world (physical ordinances by proxy)? It seems some of the "noble and great ones" came to earth to fulfill specific missions, like Christ and Abraham. But, this reads as though most of the earth's population is not included in this same group. What do you think?

Moroni addresses this more clearly than any other author we have. Moroni 7: 16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God. 17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. 18 And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged. 19 Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ. He goes on to say how to lay hold of every good gift. But, if something does not persuade to believe in Christ then it is not of God. I know in our world of G, PG, PG-13, R ratings we sometimes see degrees of what may persuade to believe in Christ. But, Moroni is crystal clear. So, even if you don't view this as satanic, it certainly does not persuade to believe in Christ. And, according to Moroni, is part of Satan's ploy to draw our attention away from Christ.

I'll get into my beliefs later as I enjoy this discussion. But, it's obvious that the pre-earth existence had some bearing on how one would end up in this life, just look at how Lucifer and his followers ended up here. Can it be used as a 100% guarantee that a person was valiant or not? I don't think so. Study this verse: Abraham 3: 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

The interesting thing, PC, is that these combinations aren't written in scripture to keep them from the wicked. The Nephite writers were forbidden from writing them on the plates that would come forth as the Book of Mormon. But, it is along the lines of what Cain did, namely make a pact of secrecy with Satan. The combinations spoken of in the Book of Mormon involved large groups of people all entering into covenant not to reveal their wickedness... all to get gain and power (just like Cain). These secret pacts don't have to made individually with Satan, but are primarily made with other people.

Matthew 21: 19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. Mark 11: 13 And seeing a fig tree far off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. (KJV) Both statements can be interpreted the exact same way. That the tree was near or across the road is NOT the only way to understand Matthew's version. The only thing that is in "black and white" is that the tree was close enough in both accounts to recognize the tree as a fig tree.

I'm not apologizing for anyone or anything. I don't read apologist sites or material. I don't see the words merely or convenient. The fact that different words were used, or some words were omitted, doesn't necessarily mean they were saying different things. Show me how this can be proven.

Steve, I want you to know that you did the right thing. Don't doubt yourself about this. Hang in there and you will be blessed... but it may take enduring a rough time first. I like anatess' advice... the first thing you need to decide is if you want your job back. That will help you know how to proceed.

I taught Old Testament in one of the three years I was Seminary Instructor. Even teaching it 5 days a week for 9 months, it still seemed like it was a gloss over. Teaching the Old Testament 40 minutes for one day a week for a year seems very daunting.

The Matthew account says He was on His way back to the city, making it sound like He travelled pretty far. There is no indication whatsoever that He saw the tree near or far, it's just your interpretation that He didn't see it from far away. Because He saw it beside the road doesn't mean it was beside Him. He very well could have spotted it from a distance beside the road He was travelling back to the city, and as He passed by He went up to it. Neither do I find the Mark account any more or less "reactionary" than the Matthew account. The only difference you can difinitively make from the text is when the tree was withered. That discrepency could be entirely dependant on who told the story and when they witnessed that the tree was withered. One was possibly with Him and saw it wither that very moment, while the other possibly heard the story and went to look at the tree himself the next day. In any case, I do see differences. I just don't draw the same conclusion as you do, that one has to be correcting the other. The writer of Matthew either was an eye-witness to the event or heard the story from someone who was, and told it from that perspective, while the writer of Mark heard the story from someone and went to view the tree he knew had leaves on it the day before and saw it was bare. Both are telling what they knew, or what they were told. The fact that Jeus approached the tree for food and cursed it because it had none yet appeared to be in the time of it's season remains constant. Just another way of looking at it.

I think "what" the secret is and "why" you're hiding is what you need to consider.