FunkyTown

Yes, JC. We should outlaw... Outlaw... Uni... I can't even finish that sarcastically. You honestly support strikebreaking and union busters? Because that's what the police would become if unions were outlawed. That's.... Wow. When people said that there were still people like you that existed, I generally thought they were exaggerating. You seriously condone smashing the constitution(If you're American) and denying people the right to free assembly? And if you aren't American(As I am not), you seriously support using the police as -union busters-? Have you ever studied history? Do you know what that led to? You recognize that people with your attitude resulted in riots, fires, deaths and flat out anarchy when people demanded their rights from companies? I mean... Seriously, disagreeing with unions is one thing. Saying that, in a truly global economy, unions result in higher unemployment - All that would be fine. But saying you support -outlawing- Unions. That's... Wow. Good on you. You have actively shocked me.

Queries? I have never taken something wholeheartedly from someone and used it as my signature. This made me smile and it has just become my new signature.

I am going to let you in on a secret about guys(And people in general). Most of us accidentally fall in to relationships. Most of the time, even the most attractive people in the world get in relationships in spite of themselves. Someone shows up, someone flirts, they fumble around and they end up in a relationship with whoever they might vaguely be interested in who might vaguely be interested in them. Those who are most attractive generally have people throwing themselves at them(On both sides of the fence). This results in those people having less 'Social worth'(Think about it - When was the last time you found someone really attractive who followed you around puppy-dog like. It doesn't happen). Then, these same people who reject those who throw themselves at -them- wonder why they aren't attractive to the people they want. Attraction is not a choice and we can not help who we are attracted to. Any person can attract any other person.

Surprisingly, I agree with you, Austro - Not on 1840s education rates. The average person now has far more education and knowledge. Rather, I disagree with how public school works. Essentially, public school plays to lowest common denominator: Whole classes concentrate on the needs of the slowest and, even in that case, many are allowed to squeak by. I see this as being part of our culture of permissiveness, where no child can be criticized for want of hurting their precious little feelings. Because of this, we stifle creativity in the intelligent and do no favours to the least intelligent. And this is due to a public schooling system based upon the idea that a citizen should be trained to be a cog in the wheel of the civilization he is part of. It's maddeningly ineffective.

That's... Wow. That's crazy. If I had an ex do that to me, I think I would flip out. :|

What if the mushroom is shifty?

Hey! I told you I'd hook you up with a golden seat, Halfway! Who're you gonna believe: Me, who is going to sell you a pew with your name in gold, or some guy who says it 'Isn't possible'? Sic itur ad astra, Halfway!

Much like the railroad workers of last century were rewarded for connecting the entire continent together. They were given such high salaries that th... Wait, wait... No. Many of them were maimed and killed by poor workplace safety laws. Didn't the Unions make a major push for workplace safety? Oh, well. Probably a fluke. I know! Miners. They work hard for their money and were rewarded commeasurately with... Uh... Wait, no. They were working for credit, which was basically legalized slavery. Actually, now that I think about it, until American Workers demanded to be treated like human beings, the wealthy who ran the companies treated them pretty shoddily. Wow. You might think that businesses are run by humans and, since most humans are selfish, they will get as much as they can for as little as they can in most situations. Hey! Come to think of it, wouldn't that work in reverse as well? Wouldn't leaders of powerful coalitions of workers -also- act selfishly? Maybe it's just a case of two selfish groups working to cancel one another out, only because 90% of the wealth is owned by 10% of the people, maybe my sympathies don't lie entirely with people who say wealth naturally redistributes itself. Because it doesn't.

That's... Is that real? Did Mahmoud Ahmedinejad -really- write that? And he asked for blessings upon the -Iranian Christians-? If he really said that, I don't know what I'd do. That would be monumental. Historic, even. I would honestly be excited for our brothers currently there. If he honestly said that, I might immediately book time off to do the "Christmas in Iraq" vacation people are suggesting. I'm not even kidding. That would be so monumental a change in policy that I would consider that the world has changed radically in the past decade.

I'm not in a union, Pup. I'd like to point out for most of your arguments that "Correlation is not causation". That's just a fancy schmancy way of saying "Just because two things happen simultaneously doesn't mean they're related." It's why we can't make arguments like "Fascists eat breakfast. You eat breakfast. Therefore, you're a fascist."(With the exception of pure ad hominem attacks). The long and short of my argument? Blaming a group of workers who come together for mutual protection when a company starts doing badly is akin to blaming your dog when your household starts doing poorly: Just because he's part of the household doesn't mean he was the contractor who built it, or the freezing rain that caved the roof in or the government collecting the back taxes on it. He's just a dog.

Hahah. I totally volunteer.

Dude? He and she were in an argument and she asked if he said anything about her? The answer to that is always, "I am not getting in to the middle of it. I like you both and can't say one way or the other." You went way over the line with that. Way, completely over the line. You don't interfere in a friends relationship. I doubt you consciously said it to break them up, but... Be honest. You're interested in her as more than a friend, correct? Maybe your friend is not quite so out there as he seems and maybe it's not paranoid, but rather correct assumption?

That fault doesn't lies with the unions(Not entirely). That lies with the engineers. American cars are mostly poorly engineered dungheaps. You can prove this by looking at other vehicles that are made by unions. Ford makes wonderful trucks - And it's the same union workers making those. However, in todays economy, the fact that Ford makes the king of the road truck is irrelevant.

o.O Seriously? You aren't going to convince a 7th day adventist that celebrating the sabbath on Sunday is fine. You could point out, "Oh ye hypocrites, who strain a gnat but swallow a camel." and point out that Jesus said there were things which weren't vital to salvation. You could point out that 'Doing what Jesus did' does not refer to -everything- he did, but in his attitudes and actions. For instance, you could point out that it's not expected that they live 2000 years ago, die and are resurrected 32 years later or that they get crucified. But you aren't going to convince a 7th day adventist of your viewpoint. Ever.

Yep! Moe is completely right. The fault of the industry lies in the culture of those companies. In a company that's dedicated to quality, where management and worker work together, everything changes. I know that firsthand in one of the few companies that has consistently grown and continues to grow during this recession. I drank the corporate Kool-Aid. I'm proud of it.

Wait... Wait... You're blaming unions for that and not inferior products and a development methodology that utterly ignores current trends?(IE: Developing huge monster trucks in an economy where gas is expensive and an economic downturn prevents the purchasing of these types of vehicles.) I think you may be blaming the wrong thing.

And that's fair, Truegrits. Just remember: You are where you are because of the choices you make. Nothing happens to us - By our actions and inactions, things come to pass. We all have the power to have the life we want.

Yes. It has. If you don't believe me, ask the Teamsters Union about empty return loads and how that's affected independant contractors. Or look at Canada's laws on work weeks. Since the decline of the union, it is now legal to force someone to work up to 60 hours a week. And they can't say no. And those without the money for lawsuits, or who simply want a fair system, or don't have the time to fight the lawyers of big business end up losing. For some reason, legitimate grievances in the US tend to get swept under the rug, but spill hot coffee in your lap and Mickey Ds gives you a cool million. There are literally thousands of wrongful dismissal cases every year. Right. And therein lies the reason that unions have lost power - True globalization means unions lose, simply because relocation costs are often better than dealing with the headache of a union. The long and the short? I'm grateful to the Unions for providing me with the kind of life I live now. Without them, our lives would be far harder at work. To me, if a company has the choice between having $1 billion/year in profit or $900 million/year in profit and sharing the other $100 million among its workers? I don't feel badly for the company. Thankfully, I work for an ethical company run and owned by someone who was on the other side of the workforce. I'm grateful for that, but not everyone works for Research in Motion.

The problem with that, Ben, is that there is basically no competition for many minimum wage jobs. Heck, in many cases jobs that open up in traditionally low-interest markets(Such as fruit gathering), the companies will simply hire anyone who is willing to do it, which is why illegal immigration isn't strictly controlled: Many places depend upon these groups. On the other hand, in Alberta, McDonald's pays basically twice minimum wage simply because the oil fields provide a no-skilled individual a high paying job, so nobody wants to work at McDonald's. Even with minimum wage laws, competition forces wages upwards in areas where there isn't a plentitude of low-skilled workers.

Seriously, Ben. There is a crazy amount of lack of 'manning up' among most of the younger generation. I'm not sure if it's caused by a lack of real male role models or what, but I've noticed that dating among the 'forgotten generation'(My term for anyone in LDS culture who is unmarried at age 25 or above) is seriously slim pickings for the women. Most guys with a strong testimony, a good job and a commitment to marriage are married by their early twenties in the LDS church. What does that leave? Angry divorcees, mama's boys and those who have no care for the future. Whatever few lie in between are hotly contested. Frankly, I think guys need to be sat down and explained to: "Forget the 'me' generation. I know you're being told by the world everything you do is right and everything is a personal choice. That's selfish and untrue. Get a job. Pay for your date. Stand up for what you believe in. Don't like it? Life sucks - Wear a helmet. That's the way it works."

I would recommend ignoring him entirely. Why would you go to a 'Whyweleftmormonism' website? It's nothing but trash. Conversely, when you go there, you'll hear the argument "If you were really faithful, you'd hear our arguments." That's bull. I've lived in an area similar to yours when I was a new member and I've heard all the arguments. Not one of them held water.

We don't talk about it because it's not doctrine. It's supposition. It's just supposition. Does it make sense? Sure. Is it fact? No.

There is wisdom in the Buddhist teachings: An apple begins as a seed, grows plump and red and ultimately falls to the ground to bruise and rot and send its seed elsewhere. To the apple, all states are equal - It doesn't care that it grows or rots, but merely fulfills its purpose. The same goes for a rock: A rock will sit there, being scoured by water and wind and plant. If you pick it up and throw it, it will move precisely the distance the force imparted on it suggests, subject to being countered by other forces. It, also, doesn't care where it sits or what forces work upon it. Intelligence - Intelligence is the anomaly. "Suffering stems from desire" is considered one of the Noble Truths of Buddhism and that's true; Were one to transcend desire, one would transcend pain as well as evil. The question of evil in Christianity is much similar to the question of Desire in Buddhist thought: If all things are naturally without desire, how did desire come to pass? Isn't desire for lasting happiness, for transcendence - Or even to attain a natural state - A desire of its own? *** In LDS thought, Evil can most aptly be described as an allegory: There once were two women who believed that all that mattered in life was to be happy. Time passed and it came that they each had a child that they loved more than themselves. Loving their child, they would do anything for their child to be happy. One decided that she would spend all her life savings and purchase enough opium to keep her child happily sedated forever. She would dote on her child in its bed, keeping it constantly content and locked in an opiate induced haze. The other raised her child as best she could and sent her to school. There, she had scraped knees, broken hearts and tears. She had times when she was frustrated and times when she felt she couldn't go on. In those times, her mother held her and said it would be okay. Still sad, the child continued on and lived her life. Which one was the good parent in that scenario? For most, the first mother's instincts would fill them with horror. Despite the tears the second mother's child shed, most feel that her child lived the better life. Despite our lies to ourselves, there is something written on our hearts that we were meant for something more; We know and understand that an untested life is not worth living. *** The argument against that argument is, "But if God is all powerful and all knowing, couldn't he just will that we spring to existence, with experience and knowledge?" That springs from a fundamental flaw in reasoning, similar to the question: "If God is omnipotent, could He make a rock so heavy even He couldn't lift it? If he can, then he isn't all-powerful because he can't lift the rock. If he can't, then he isn't all powerful because he can't create something more powerful than himself." It's similar to saying, "I want God to stand in the corner of a round room.", the user - By defining something as impossible - Has created an absurdity. Adding the words "God can" to an absurdity doesn't make it any less absurd. If one is Omnipotent, one can not stand in the corner of a room with no corners. If one is omnipotent and wants someone to have experience, the only way is for them to actually experience. If one is omnipotent, they're able to do all things which are possible, not all things which are possible to vocalize. That is the nature of triumph over evil: To experience and transcend it.

Could be. I know, originally, the term Jack Mormon was used as far back as when Jack Dempsey said "I'm proud to be a Mormon. And Ashamed to be the Jack Mormon that I am." And he was arguably the greatest boxer of all time.

There are basically two types of Jack Mormons: The angry types and the types that make me smile. I knew one Jack Mormon who, when I was at dinner with him, raised a snifter of Scotch and said "I may be a Mormon, but darned if I'm not a bad one. To being a Jack Mormon!" and drained the glass. He always made me smile and often reminded me of Saint Augustine who said "Make me chaste, O' Lord. But not yet."