Jenda

Randy, I thank you for your concern, but what happens and how we deal with it is really up to us and what we believe the Lord directs us to do. If we feel that we still need to wait, then we will wait (or those that believe that will). If we feel that organization is what the Lord directs, then we will organize (or at least, those that believe that will). I do not believe that dropping what I believe to be the truth, no matter the state of the church, to become a member of a church that I do not believe embraces the truth (no matter it's state), is an option.

No. Otherwise there would be very few who ever went to the temple. They have people called to be name extractors who work daily extracting thousands of names for temple work. That way, if I want to go to the temple and do some work for the dead, there are names for me to take through, without having to have my own. My parents exhausted our genelogical line, there just isn't anyone else for me to find that there are records for. Plus there are many other family members doing work on that same line. So it is very possible, and more than plausable that when you go to the temple, you are doing a name of someone you aren't directly related to. Is this true? Anyone else? Because I read somewhere that many baptisms that were done were overturned because they found out there was no relationship between the people doing the temple work and the people the temple work was done for.

Let's look at the set-up of Section 76. I will start at the beginning of the vision, and I will use RLDS scriptures because it is easier for me to find things there. But rest assured, they are the same.First it talks about the sons of Perdition, who they are and how they will go to outer darkness. I won't post all those scriptures, I think we agree on that point. I will point out one scripture, though. I will highlight an important phrase within that scripture. 76:4e these are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the Devil and his angels, and the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath; 76:4f for all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made. Then we move on to this scripture. 76:5a And again, we bear record for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ, concerning them who come forth in the resurrection of the just: And there are a bunch of scriptural requirements that are listed in verses 5b through 6h. And then we get to this scripture. 76:7a And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament; 7b these are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus; 7c these are they who deny not the Holy Spirit; 7d these are they who are thrust down to hell; 7e these are they who shall not be redeemed from the Devil, until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work; This last scripture I quoted shows beyond a shadow of a doubt that only those who are to receive the Telestial Glory will not be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just. Which means that those who are eligible for Terrestrial Glory will be resurrected in that resurrection. You can look it up in your own D&C. It is all there.

I thought they had to be related in order to do temple work for someone who is dead.

Dawn, See, this is what I find hard to understand. You state that there is an Apostle whom you felt would have "done the right thing" for the church. This Apostle has supported and sustained all this doctrinal change which you so vehemently oppose. I know this sound harsh, but how can you say he would do the right thing for the Church when he has supported all that has caused the CoC to go down this road to apostacy and evidently...will continue to? I dont get it. You seem to think that everyone has to believe the same exact things in order to be in leadership positions. I happen to know that some of the apostles are very liberal, in all ways. Some are conservative Christians, but liberal regarding the restoration, some are traditional in all ways. Some have testified that things that they did not believe to be true were ramrodded through by the liberals above them (the 1st presidency) and they did not support those changes. I do not believe that the church would go in a direction that the upper leadership does not endorse. And if a conservative (in all respects) gets into the top leadership position, I believe the eventual outcome would be entirely different. If the person I mentioned was put into the top leadership position, the church would turn around it's belief about the Book of Mormon, and in many other "traditional restoration" beliefs, and become, once again, a restoration church. Can they do anything about things like women in the priesthood, I seriously doubt it, but that is not what makes it or breaks it to me. This is all I have to say about that. http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/g/m/gmovesmw.htm Let me add that what you have said about the position of the restoration branches. That is true. But it would become true for every branch in the church if it goes into apostasy. But efforts are underway to try to gain control of the situation by a group of restorationists for the eventuality that is approaching.

You know better than that. Truth is....there isn't anyone they could have selected other than Wallace B. Smith that would have satisfied you or the Restorationists. Yes there is one that I would have loved to have seen placed in that spot. It is another of the apostles, and I know his heart very well, as I lived with his mother for a while in college, and I stayed with them last year when his father died. He would do the right thing for the church. Of that I know. So...with this selection...do you feel the CoC is now in complete apostacy? You have made the comment before that you felt the CoC was, for lack of a better phrase...in "partial apostacy". Does this seal the deal for you? Are you going to continue to attend the CoC church or are you going to take a stand and leave and come to Independence? The church has the potential to go into complete apostasy at that time. It depends on who ordains him, and who he chooses to replace him as apostle, and who ordains that person. If the church goes into complete apostasy, this is the same exact situation that they church faced when BY was elevated to president. Exactly. The governance of the church then falls to local leadership, and each branch would be "responsible" for itself. As what happened between 1844 and 1860. Of course the church will never admit that this is happening, as the LDS church never admitted it, but that doesn't make it any less true. As for myself, I cannot pick up and leave without my family. It is now, and will continue to be, my strong wish to gather so that I can attend a church I feel is not in apostasy.

Dawn, Then are you saying that those in the spirit world will have had to already accepted the gospel and been baptized before the Resurrection of the Just? I thought you were putting forth the idea that a spirit could be resurrected THEN be baptized. Did I miss understand you? Also....I didnt know if you noticed my other question about males needing to have been ordained to the MP in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom....do you believe that as well? randy I thought I made it clear that I believe that they will have the opportunity during the Zionic reign to be baptized. I do not believe it is a requirement to be baptized to be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just. I do not read that it is a requirement for one to be a MP member to enter Celestial Glory, no. Dawn, We both agree that people on both sides of the veil during the millennium will have the opportunity to accept the gospel and be baptized. You seem to be reversing your course. On the other board you specifically stated that it was your belief that Baptism was necessary to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Period. In order for a person to inherit a Celestial glory, he must come forth in the morning of the First Resurrection, or Resurrection of the Just. So, it stands to reason.....Baptism is necessary. You say baptism is NOT a requirement to come forth in the Resurrection of the Just..yet how do you explain D&C 76:51 where it spells it out plainly? Explain to me what you believe it is saying. Explain what D&C 76:57 means when it says speaking of those males who shall come forth in the resurrection of the Just: "And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son." Is this not the MP that is being referenced? randy Randy, you cannot look at an isolated scripture in that section because the eligibility goes on for several verses. It states that those eligible for both Celestial Glory and Terrestrial Glory are to arise in the Resurrection of the Just. That one verse is only the requirement for Celestial Glory. You have to go down further to see the requirements for Terrestrial Glory. So, are you implying that only MP members will be in Celestial Glory?

OK, one more time, for the record..................The people in the spiritprison are being taught about Christ now. They have the chance to accept or deny Christ. The Resurrection of the Just will occur during Zion, which is the Millenium. Those who are eligible for both Celestial glory and Terrestrial glory will arise in the Resurrection of the Just. They will live here on earth for 1000 years with Christ. Those who are not eligible for the Resurrection of the Just will not arise until the Resurrection of the Unjust (final judgment.) Those who accepted Christ in the spiritprison will have the opportunity during Zion to be baptized. At the end of the Millenium Satan is loosed for a short period. Then comes the final resurrection and final judgment, and everyone will pass to the glories they have inherited. Those who will inherit Celestial glory will have already been baptized either when they were alive (prior to death), having not rejected the gospel, or they will have been baptized during Zion after having heard about Christ and accepted Him in the spiritprison. There is no requirement to be baptized to be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just since those who are eligible for the Terrestrial glory are eligible to arise in the Resurrection of the Just. There is a requirement to be baptized to enter Celestial Glory. Those who have resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just who have not been baptized will have the opportunity to be baptized during the millenium (Zion). Is it still not clear what I believe?

Dawn, Then are you saying that those in the spirit world will have had to already accepted the gospel and been baptized before the Resurrection of the Just? I thought you were putting forth the idea that a spirit could be resurrected THEN be baptized. Did I miss understand you? Also....I didnt know if you noticed my other question about males needing to have been ordained to the MP in order to enter the Celestial Kingdom....do you believe that as well? randy I thought I made it clear that I believe that they will have the opportunity during the Zionic reign to be baptized. I do not believe it is a requirement to be baptized to be resurrected in the Resurrection of the Just. I do not read that it is a requirement for one to be a MP member to enter Celestial Glory, no.

Randy, I believe that the resurrection of the just signals the end of the missionary phase of those who have died. If they are not resurrected in that resurrection, they are destined for Telestial glory or outer darkness.

Randy, you are not focusing on the fact that the resurrection of the just occurs during the Zionic reign. It includes both those eligible for Celestial, as well as Terrestrial, glory. Section 76, in that section of it, is talking about the glories, though, not what will happen during Zion. By the time one gets to the final judgment (and then on to the glories), yes, everything will have had to have been completed. But Zion is just .............. Zion. It is real life, the only difference is that Christ will be living on earth with us. Life will go on as normal. People will be coming to Christ and being baptized every day. Why do you think otherwise?

Section 76 states that the resurrection of the just includes those eligible for Celestial glory as well as those eligible for Terrestrial glory. Those eligible for Terrestrial glory will, for the most part, not have received of the restored truth but were good people on earth who had been misled. It also states that the resurrection of the just will occur during the Zionic reign, which will indeed be before final judgment. My timeline is not screwy. I think you need to re-read that section and pray to better understand it and not be brainwashed by the traditions of your church. Perhaps you can explain your own belief in a way that doesn't tell other people they are wrong. You have said absolutely nothing about your belief and have just slammed mine. Dawn, I wasnt slamming your belief. I simply would like, as I have asked...for you to lay the scriptural foundation for your belief. Thats all. I could explain to you in detail about what we believe concerning it...but, you already are well versed in it. Randy, I have no idea what LDS believe regarding Zion or their view of the entimes timeline, etc. I have tried to engage some in this topic at least twice in the last year, or so, but it must not be a topic people are highly interested in, which is interesting to me as it is the focus of the RLDS thoughts. So, I am up in the air as to what you believe. I'm not sure what you mean when you say you understand why I can't say I believe in BftD because that would be admitting something. I have never made any comment that sounded anything like that. I just don't believe it is necessary. Maybe later this evening, I can point to just why I believe what I believe. Mabye in the meantime, you can expound on your beliefs regarding Zion and how the scriptures in Section 76 fit into your belief.

I thought this would be appropriate in lieu of some of the other threads we have had lately. How To Start Your Day With A Positive Outlook 1. Open a new file in your PC. 2. Name it "Housework." 3. Send it to the RECYCLE BIN. 4. Empty the RECYCLE BIN. 5. Your PC will ask, "Are you sure you want to delete Housework permanently?" 6. Answer calmly, "Yes," and press the mouse button firmly. 7. Housework all done! 8. Feel better?

What is her take on the situation? Have you discussed it with her?

My considered opinion (not being LDS, and all) would be that if you don't feel like you have to compromise what you do believe to remain in fellowship with the church, and if it doesn't alter plans that you have made in a marriage covenant in any way, then there shouldn't be a problem. However, for instance, if you and your wife got married under the assumption that you and she would go through the temple, etc., and she has not changed her beliefs, that is something you need to take into consideration. I don't know your personal situation, that was just an example of how your decision could impact someone else.

Section 76 states that the resurrection of the just includes those eligible for Celestial glory as well as those eligible for Terrestrial glory. Those eligible for Terrestrial glory will, for the most part, not have received of the restored truth but were good people on earth who had been misled. It also states that the resurrection of the just will occur during the Zionic reign, which will indeed be before final judgment. My timeline is not screwy. I think you need to re-read that section and pray to better understand it and not be brainwashed by the traditions of your church. Perhaps you can explain your own belief in a way that doesn't tell other people they are wrong. You have said absolutely nothing about your belief and have just slammed mine.

So, are any of you guys worried? http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/n...polygamy06.html

Obscure college??? What a joke! Georgetown University is one of the most prestigious universities in the U.S.

Randy, I post on that board, and there was no discussion about BftD. There is a discussion about baptism, which SF has been posting the liberal CoC schtick, but nothing about baptism for the dead. I will go back and re-read it, but having posted in that thread numerous times, I don't remember seeing anything about it in there. I think I stated my position in that thread over there, but if you want me to state it here, I do not believe in BftD. I don'lt believe there is a need for it. The scriptures clearly indicate a time when those who come forth in the resurrection of the just will have 1000 years to see to their own baptism. For quite a while, before I studied Section 76, and the other scriptures that related to Zion, I believed that BftD might have been necessary, but I no longer do. I do not believe it will be practiced at all.

Thanks Jenda! B) Sheesh... just when it was getting fun. Seems to be the way of this board... or bored. Sorry, JRodan. I don't come here to read bickering between two individuals, and, most likely, neither do many other people. But if you want to rumble, I'll meet you outside in the parking lot in a half hour.

Hope you enjoy solitude. Nobody will respond to you with the attitude you have assumed.

This is getting a bit too personal. If you have anything further to say to each other, take it to PM, or it will be deleted.

NO! Really??? I would not have guessed it from the contents of your OP.

Yeah. One of the "morer" sex. :) ROLF! <span style=\'color:red\'>ROFLOL!

Give me the link to the discussion board and let me see the discussion so I can respond about their comments as well as offer comments of my own. Thanks.