cofchristcousin

I have tried to avoid discussing the religious part of this. I respect your place to discuss what you believe. I try to stay in the civil law/government part of the discussion. I forget sometimes. :) But, I'll answer just this once. Outside of the LDS and Catholicism there is a huge debate going on about whether gltb marriage is ok. Even in Evangelicalism there are movements to look again, or at the very least be more merciful and compassionate, and repentant of the times our religions acted in fear, hate, and ignorance. Personally, I believe gltb can have sacred marriages in the eyes of God.

No. I believe acting irresponsibly sexually is a sin. Outside the LDS and evangelical churches, less so with lay Catholicss, it is not universally considered to be a sin to be partnered with someone of the same sex.

I have trouble with the language too. Many gltb reject the word homosexual because it was a mental illness diagnosis. That was struck down 30 some years ago and they don't like to align with the language that harmed them so much. The general public also frequently believes bisexual means orgy. It doesn't, not even close. But bi's are judged on that definition. These are part of the reason why I think using the dictionary definitions are important.

LOL! Yep, just like Jesus said. More seriously, I admit my limitations in communicating in a foreign religion or maybe, culture. I had no idea how much until I came here. If there is to be cross cultural and cross religion discussion of this public and political issue, then we need a common language. I believe the LDS in their publications has adopted this common language. I think they might also be trying to reduce the horror and self and other destruction that can come when one believes being a homosexual is worse than death. It brings the word back down to earth, takes the destructive power out of the word and defines it more clinically, and for what it is, an attraction to the same gender. Carrying the "label" homosexual is not a sin in your church, nor mine.

Yes. It's correct. If a person looks in the dictionary it means that a person is attracted to the same sex. It gives our language some continuity to aid in communication. Religious talk makes a distinction between acting and feeling. I don't know what word would be best for that religious area of the discussion. In my world we say celibate or active. Some use the term "openly gay" to mean someone is sexually active. That is probably not accurate. Many gltb are open about their attraction, but are celibate.

Gotta disagree. I grew up not knowing what "gay" meant, born in 1960. I knew I was attracted to girls but had no idea that was an option. Most of the gay folk in my church had the same experience. Some figured it all out after they married and realized "this is just not going to work".

It varies from congregation to congregation in my world too. There are some congregations that would not let me attend, one where the Pastor shunned me for an entire weekend, mine that welcomes me with open arms largely because I am very low key, and I "hear" that there are some that would accept me and a partner with no problem. I've not experienced that kind of place though. I would guess that many congregations would struggle with a same sex couple who might hold hands in church. The official policy is that a gltb person can be ordained as long as they are celibate, but reality is that acceptance is lived out or not in the local congregations. My congregation is comfortable with me preaching regularly and serving as worship director, things like that. I am involved openly at higher jurisdictions, volunteering in communications and and missional development programs. Leaders beyond the local congregation overwhelmingly are affirming privately, but are faithful to the official policy while our denomination discerns a solution together. It is likely to be a more prominent issue in our near future because some of our Priesthood are petioning for permission to marry gltb in places where it is legal.

Soo... If a gay person came to a service and it was somehow known, what could they expect? I assume you all introduce yourselves and shake hands and make small talk/fellowship after a service. Would members address it, or would that be something for leadership or would the gay one just get to worship without commentary? I've not attended an LDS service. I've only known a few LDS as coworkers, and those who have visited the Community of Christ forum.

LOL. I wonder if some of us are both?

I agree. So much talk is from the poles that the one side are religious nuts/neanderthals and the other view is that gltb are absolute, wholy immoral, sex-crazed, mentally ill perverts. (sigh...) For years my church has offered Listening Circles to aid in finding common ground and reducing the mutual hostility and fear. The issue is still too hot for people to be willing to engage in them though.

yep. Fellowship, compassion, safety, belonging, love, truthfulness, accountability, kindness, mercy, justice, peace, mission, purpose, etc, etc

Do you ever ask gays what their spiritual needs might be?

I can understand why you would tell me that if I came to your church. I don't understand why anyone cares to make or keep it illegal for 2 responsible adults from being "family" in the civil laws of the state. It seems to be based on fear, (As in A Gathering Storm) but those fears are dissipating for most people.

That would be my preference as well. But, I will support equality in the form of "marriage for all" or "civil unions for all" in whatever form it comes before me. I think the window to switch to civil unions is passing quickly. The tipping point where resistance to gay marriage falls is here. I'm sure there will be some backlash, but demographics show that gay marriage will soon be the norm.

I hold this view with considerable personal tension. My primary issue is that I want marriage civil protections in the hands of gays as soon as possible, with as little strife as possible. I also want people to not be so fearful of that. One of the major roadblocks to gay marriage is the fear that a person's religious beliefs would be compromised if they had to serve gay customers related to gay marriages. I know that in the US constitution only people have civil protections, not businesses. But people don't "get" that and will continue to vote against gay marriage equality on that foundation. I accept the religious/business equal accomodation exclusion as a gay Christian, so that gay families will gain other more urgent protections more quickly.

I did note that in Vermont there were strong protections for people based on religion. Photographers would not have to take gay wedding photos, churches would not need to rent their facilities, etc. I'm hopeful that will lessen the sting and alleviate religious rights concerns. Stacie

Have you seen these alcohol stoves made from soda pop cans? I think some of them are as efficient as the trianga. Zen and the Art of the Alcohol Stove Here is a setup I made a month or so ago, just for fun. I have lots of time on my hands I can boil 2 cups of water in the big can using 4 oz of the alcohol in the stove in 5 minutes. http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs017.snc1/2638_65994391235_789296235_1544203_66233_n.jpg

I will hold you in my prayers. I hope you will do counseling, just for you. You are not the damaged goods you described. No Way. Stacie

Not going to bite. I have no control how far you extrapolate on what I haven't said , and I'm not going to participate in a battle of the Churches. No one wins, everyone loses. bye

I think I'll pass. I respect the religious understandings of the good people here, whether I agree or not. Once in a while I chime in from my understanding, but as a rule I try to steer clear of beliefs conversations in this setting. thanks, stacie

Hi Teancum, I have read and I have discussed this with some of the team, many, many times. We disagree on many levels, but we are friends and we have a mutual respect for each other's discipleship and passion. I was not so much belittling as clarifying their association with Community of Christ. From my perspective, it's important to represent that clearly. No offense intended.

Yeah... As background, This is not a program or ministry of Community of Christ. It's largely the Brown extended family and like-minded friends in a few Independence area congregations. They are quite sincere and passionate, but I have major doubts about this work. It is not recognized or supported by the church. Stacie

I seriously don't know where I stand on hate crime laws. I don't think everything that any crime that happens to a protected person rises to the level of hate. But, there are areas where I can see higher penalties for hate crimes. Consider cross burning. Is that simple vandalism, or does the fear and intimidation a cross burning puts into a community call for higher penalties? It's not simple for me.

I am friends with several people on the team. I don't believe they have found anything archeologically. I think they are finding a ministry giving care to the local people they meet though.

I am a Christian because I find God in Jesus. In his life and teachings and death I see uncompromising and self-sacrificing love for everyone, including traditionally unloved and unloveable people. I see Jesus' Way as found in the Sermon on the Mount and kingdom teachings bringing redemption and salvation and the Kingdom present in his every encounter. When we take Jesus' Way upon us, we share in that joy and redemptive work of the Kingdom on earth.