cofchristcousin

This is how it has happened in the past. I'm not LDS, but my denomination currently has a similar policy regarding gays. I listened to conversations like the ones here for 17 years before coming out. The scriptures and the policies can be respected as the church's faithful following of God's will, but the casual conjectures much like what is found in these threads about the causes and character and biology of gays that a person might hear for a decade before coming out can be trust-breaking. Trust breaking between the person and the fellowship, the leaders, and breaks their trust of an understanding and merciful God, and worse, breaks their trust that they themselves are worth having around. Most gay people in Christianity do just drift away, but those days seem to be ending. The culture has changed some, and gays are asking to be listened to, to share the damage the rhetoric has in their lives, even if they respect the Church is striving to be faithful to God's commands. Even if the policies are absolutely God's commands, the rhetoric and explanations are often not based in love and true understanding of the nature of Gay people, but come instead from misinformation rather than knowlege or experience or friendships. That too is changing, but sloowly.

Soulsearcher, for your forehead, from banging it against that wall. I am in awe of your persistent kindness and patience.

This is an example of what I believe people are protesting at this time. The sin in your church's theology is "acting" on the attraction, but many people tell gays that the sin is "feeling" the attraction. Science has verified what lgtb folk have been saying, that there is a biological/psychological attraction for the same sex that functions and feels like just like heterosexual attraction. When that factor is ruled out by well-meaning but misinformed people... the very people a person trusts to represent God's Truth.... then every moment the gay person has a feeling of attraction float through their brain they are filled with guilt, believing they are unredeemably weak-willed and unfaithful. It would be comparable to every time you feel hungry you would be reminded that God rejects you for eternity for feeling hunger. The protesters are saying that it is not a sin to feel the biologically based attraction, and that telling young gay people that it is brings them needless and significant pain and suffering, and sometimes a person becomes vulnerable enough that they take their own life. Many people accept that acting on same sex attraction is a sin, but they are calling the church to not make it worse for the people by telling them that the feeling itself is their weakness and a sin. That is what disregarding the biological factors implies.

I have read that the text version of the talk is different than the spoken version. The word "tendencies" has been changed to "temptations" and the “Why would our Heavenly Father do that to anyone?” has been omitted. These changes, or possibly returns to what was intended to be spoken, do not challenge the past statements of the lds on whether homosexuality is biological. I am more at ease with the text version, and am grateful your church has made this decision.

I'm not lds, but my funny story is when I brought my grandma to church. She's 90, legally blind and uses a walker. I played the piano so I wasn't sitting with her during the service. She accidently put her envelope with her rent money into the offering plate, instead of the envelope she had prepared with $5. The deacons were a several pews past her when she realized her mistake. She panicked and started chasing them down with her walker yelling, "hey, I want my money back!". They figured it out quickly and everyone was laughing hysterically, including Grandma.

just addressing points 2 and 3. Monogamous same sex relationships are no more high risk than monogamous heterosexual relationships. Lesbian relationships are the lowest risk. There would be no reason to charge more for health or life insurance. Hopefully the blood donation restrictions will be re-evaluated at some point and loosened. I have no idea on the adoption question. How are decisions made when 3 equally qualified hetero couples want to adopt?

I think most gays would be happy with the state out of the marriage business altogether, and all couples would have legal civil unions. But that boat is sailing and marriage seems to be the future for us all.

There was a guest on Olbermann last night who explained things well. Can't remember her name. According to my memory, she said that the case was presented very poorly, the majority of their testimony was a couple of witnesses claiming that gay is bad for families, but did not substantiate that with anything credible. Because the case was so poorly made, the Judge's ruling was a no brainer. Since the case cannot be made credibly that same sex marriage is harmful to anyone, the real question ( not addressed much in the case) is whether the majority has the right to deny marriage to some persons based on a specific religious moral belief. It will probably not be so easy from here on out.

We go in circles, but we get deeper each pass. We recognize more of the humanity and goodness and good intentions of each other. 10 years ago this conversation probably wouldn't have taken place here. Two years ago the prop 8 conversations had a different tone, imo. Today, people ask genuine questions and respect the honesty and humility of the answerer, even if they do see a different point of view. I am grateful for that.

Interesting topic, and one that is close to my heart. Most of my work in my denomination is in sharing spiritual practices and processes that shape group discernment. I've pulled together some writings from our Doctrine and Covenants and commentary that shows some of the principles of discernment that we are striving to learn and live. ------------- The church affirms that scripture is inspired and essential to our knowledge of God and the gospel. In addition, we believe that scripture should be interpreted responsibly through informed study, guided by the Spirit working in the church. Scripture was formed by the community to shape the community. Therefore, interpreting scripture is the constant work of the community. In other words, understanding and applying scripture is not just a matter of reading a passage and deciding on our own what it means. Community of Christ also stresses that all scripture must be interpreted through the lens of God’s most-decisive revelation in Jesus Christ. So if portions of scripture don’t agree with our fullest understanding of the meaning of the revelation of God in Christ, as illuminated by the Holy Spirit and discerned by the faith community, the teachings and vision of Christ take precedence. This principle applies to all of our books of scripture, especially any passage used by some to assign God’s disfavor, negative characteristics, or secondary roles to others. This is why our belief in “continuing revelation” is so important. This belief keeps us open to “yet more light and truth” so we can grow in understanding of God’s supreme will as revealed in Christ. Doctrine and Covenants 163:7d states that “Scripture, prophetic guidance, knowledge, and discernment in the faith community must walk hand in hand to reveal the true will of God. Follow this pathway, which is the way of the Living Christ, and you will discover more than sufficient light for the journey ahead.” ------------ God, the Eternal Creator, weeps for the poor, displaced, mistreated, and diseased of the world because of their unnecessary suffering. Such conditions are not God’s will. Open your ears to hear the pleading of mothers and fathers in all nations who desperately seek a future of hope for their children. Do not turn away from them. For in their welfare resides your welfare. -------- Do not turn away in pride, fear, or guilt from the One who seeks only the best for you and your loved ones. Come before your Eternal Creator with open minds and hearts and discover the blessings of the gospel anew. Be vulnerable to divine grace. ----------- When your willingness to live in sacred community as Christ’s new creation exceeds your natural fear of spiritual and relational transformation, you will become who you are called to be. The rise of Zion the beautiful, the peaceful reign of Christ, awaits your wholehearted response to the call to make and steadfastly hold to God’s covenant of peace in Jesus Christ. -------------- “Above all else, strive to be faithful to Christ’s vision of the peaceable Kingdom of God on earth.”

On Faith Panelists Blog: Political, not theological - Michael Otterson I just happened upon this today. It's not a bad approach, especially that the writer recognizes that empathy is at the heart of both men. I know the LDS is very generous regarding poverty. The somewhat missing part is working to address the causes of poverty and injustice, but that may be because I am looking in and not familiar with your ministries.

Yes, religion in general holds up these values to different degrees. the Peace churches have a commitment to live it as deeply as they understand. They practice non-violence in every relationship possible, including their language, their advocacy against injustice, and their purchases. They have a commitment to seeing their own violence and mistreatment of life. That's part of the solidarity factor. We need each other to see ourselves and the affects of our actions more clearly. That is the point of Point 5. Alone in our individual churches and cultures, we don’t have everything that is needed to mature our faith. When we meet in settings with others we hope that we will be enriched with the diversity that is God-given. I meet with a group of many religions for interfaith dialogue. I met my first Mormon there. There are also groups urging more Christians to stop "enemizing" other religions. I do not support the view of popular christianity that rejects the LDS and a host of others from Christian organizations.

The op list does not really give the theology behind peace church movements. It is more about how we use power in our relationships, personal, church, community, country, etc. The Sermon on the Mount is central. Here is a list of traits of Peace Churches. There is some of this in nearly every church.

Yes and no. We changed our name because we wanted in 2000 to Community of Christ because Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints no longer reflected our mission and now the CofC name allows us to form an identity based on who we are, rather than who we are not. We do not deny our history, but we are trying to break the grip of the romanticized version of our history most members have known. Here is a blog conversation that answers lds questions about who we are becoming to be: Q & A – The Community of Christ and Latter-day Saints By Common Consent, a Mormon Blog

We are emphasizing non-violence in conflict, learning dialogue and discerment skills that are used within the church, and sometimes offered to the larger community for divisive issues in local communities. We focus on the Gospel depictions of Jesus as reconciler and advocate for marginalized people. I think having baptism in common is going to shape us more than we realize. We no longer believe we are the one true church, and are discovering truths we missed because of that belief. We are in the process of joining the National Council of Churches to discover and share insights gained in the work of striving for reconciliation and unity, while respecting our diversity. I'm not sure what in the thread you are referencing here. Still, it is a concept near and dear to my heart. Community of Christ desires to be the brother/sister of all sheep. Here is an article of mine written a few years ago. Luke 15 Reflections This is from my journal, from August 2006. I was realizing that my life was taking a turn, that I would be coming out to my church for the first time. I tried to capture a snapshot of my feelings, and how I viewed the realities of being gay in my denomination. Since that time, I have processed my thoughts a bit more. These reflections remain true for me, but more like I’m looking through a wide angle lens. When I zoom in on individual relationships and encounters I can see that the larger picture is indeed moving–although very slowly–in the direction of love and grace. For now, my silence buys me a place in the safety of the 99, but as I begin to speak my truth, I step into the vulnerability of that 100th sheep. The shepherds of our church are not really going to come looking for me, though. They say that they will stand with me, but only up until that point where they have to take a stand. Then, they will look away, pretend not to see, say a shamed prayer of petition that I will quietly leave. I am not the coin of great worth. I am considered a prodigal, walking up the road to her spiritual home. But there are no servants of my God running to greet me, to welcome the authentic me home. I will be worshipping in the same house with the family of God, but to many will no longer be known as a sister. I don’t know what grace will be afforded me. I don’t know who will be able to accept my reality, my presence, my servanthood. I do believe that our leaders long to be true to the call and obligations of the Kingdom, but the poverty of our spiritual lives limit that response. In the economy of our church today, it is the 99 sheep, not the Good Shepherd, who calculate the worth of the 1. The cost of accepting the truth of the outcast is too high to attempt. We will lose our illusion of unity, we will lose our ignorance of the boundaries we place on God’s love, we will lose our status within the Kingdoms of Christianity. My shame is that I support this economy as well. I am not willing to endanger the body of Christ to save the outcast, even when it’s me. I am painfully aware that my actions and inactions are prolonging the estrangement of my gay brothers and sisters, and I knowingly compromise their worth for the non-confronted comfort of my congregation and denomination. My prayer is that by becoming visible, I will help the church to better see Christ’s this-world redeeming love. In a way, I am the found, seeking to draw the 99 more fully into the Light of God’s grace.

It's been a truly amazing transformation. We always believed these issues could never be discussed without tearing the church apart. Most people even in the US were against it. About a year ago a legal same sex marriage of church members in Iowa rocked the boat. Within months it became obvious that we would have to face the discussion because we would be torn apart if we avoided it any longer. About 20 pieces of legislation regarding same sex marriage and ordination were sent to this Conference by 11 different jurisdictions in the church. The Counsel was presented to us in January, and we had many congregational discernment and dialogue meetings since then. I am not at the Conference, but everyone reports a reverent, respecting Spirit attending the worship and legislative sessions, and calling us to deeper into Christ's Mission. The Counsel was accepted overwhelmingly, about 95% in favor. Re: the idea that we are becoming a liberal church. I think our insights and seeking of Zion has much common ground with the Peace and Justice Churches more than Liberal theology churches. Theologically and politically, we probably have many more "conservative" members than "liberal". This conference we worked hard, striving to find ways to allow our diversity of belief and life circumstances to deepen, enrich and unite us, rather than divide us.

A quick interuption: Community of Christ's World Conference begins Saturday. The primary item on the agenda is consideration of Words of Counsel through our Prophet. IF the Counsel is affirmed it will open the way for national conferences to allow same sex marriage and ordination of people in same sex marriages. It is being done this way to protect our Saints in countries where homosexuality is a taboo subject and could bring violence.

US Census data gives a snapshot of gay families’ lives - Utah and Wyoming have some of the highest proportions of gay couples who call themselves married.

History shows us that social justice movements take time to grow. The momentum is building though. Maine's recall passed by just 53%, prop 8 passed by just 52%. We know the next generation of voters overwhelmingly support same sex marriage. My guess us that in 10 years many states will have passed same sex marriage legislation. In 20-30 years people will be wondering why it took so long. But today is what it is.

Is your friend seeing a professional counselor? The low self worth thinking seems rather serious. A counselor can help with that, and if it isn't maybe it's time to go to a different counselor. I am positive your friend is wonderful and it will take time and physical healing and learning to challenge his own defeated thinking for him to see it for himself. I am praying for this guy now! :) I want him to know joy and peace and love in his life, and then he will be able to deeply share that with loved ones and even his own family one day.

No changes, except to be a little more diligent in sharing hope and love and my resources. I would still want the world to be a better place and for their to be less suffering. Knowing that there was no God to save the day or bail us out might bring a deeper devotion and stewardship to serving creation, for it's own sake.

I would say yes. Depression is temporary, and with proper care this state of mind is not a permanent condition. There may always be some degree of problem but most likely much of it will come under control. Also, Many people are late bloomers in the discipline of stewardship and loving themselves to the degree that they can healthily love a spouse. It takes time, Look at how many people rush into things before they are emotionally ready and it ends in a sad divorce. There is time for your friend to find his way. Things probably look a little bleaker to him due to his depression, but hope and love will come into his life as he heals and grows. imo

I have a friend in my church who is atheist, and definitely spiritual. Here is a poem he wrote a couple of years ago. "What is more Sacred than to recognize what is living? What is more Sacred than to seek what is real? Sacred is what lives in the deepest wells of our hearts To look at someone I do not know and to feel goodness is sacred To lift someone up in encouragement is sacred To value and respect the inner soul of a person is sacred In helping the poor, I will meet the sacred In feeding the hungry, I will meet the sacred In loving my enemies, I will meet the sacred It is sacred to forgive and to be forgiven It is sacred to stand against a tide of hatred and say no it is sacred to stand in reverent silence before the universe into which I have been born and to rejoice Richard

IF there ever was an evolutionary advantage to depression it is certainly not today. I posted a link to the article on facebook. A couple of those that responded say there are spiritual benefits realized after the fact, but they aren't worth the price. I'm 5 months into the second worse depression of my life. NO Way I want to go deeper again. Sending good thoughts and vibes and cyber endorphins your way elphaba. I am sorry you are suffering this.

Hi Maxel, I have folks like you describe in my family. In my family's case hoarding stuff is a symptom of OCD, Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. It gets better with meds and not so much with therapy. It is partly biological in nature. You might be able to get an article describing this behavior and casually discussing it, and mention that it is something to discuss with a physician.