Setheus

Curvette, let me remind you of the definition of "Individual". Individual" means a human being who is alive, including an UNBORN child at EVERY stage of gestation from fertilization until birth. This Legal definition INCLUDES while the baby is inside the mother. It covers everything from Zygoat to death of old age, and evey stage in between. Also, how is the baby "part " of the mother's body? Once it is fertilized it is its own "individual" that is mearly inside of her body, not part of it. Like a symbotic relationship. There are bacteria and virus living inside of you right now. Do you consider them to be part of your body or a seperate being that lives INSIDE of your body? I don't buy it. Abortion at any stage is taking a human life. BUT even I have what I would consider exceptions. ie, if my wife were rapped and became pregnant as a result of that rape I would allow her the choice (without any pressure from me) to either have the child and raise it, have the child and give it up to LDS adoption, or have it aborted. Also, if she were going to die from a pregnancy I'd say I would choose here over the unborn child.

Now how is abortion not murder? I'm confused

Ok then what about this. And mabey Proud Duck and help me here.... According the the great state of Texas (where I am from) in the Texas Penal Code Artical 1.07 (26) & (26). There are two definitions of "Individual" one old and one newly passed. Hence two #26's..... (26) "individual" means a human being who has been born AND is alive. (26) Individual" means a human being who is alive, including an UNBORN child at EVERY stage of gestation from fertilization until birth. And the definition of "Harm" is.. (25) "Harm" means anything reasonably regarded as loss, disadvantage, or injury, including harm to another person in whose welfare the person affected is interested. In Texas if a pregnant woman uses illegal drugs she can be prosecuted for "endangering a child" and/or "delivery of a controlled substance to a minor". {NOW} How can a woman be accountable for drugs that "Harm" an "Individual" but when she opps to have that Individual killed for her screw up she is not held accountable for that "murder"? Texas Penal Code Art. 19.02 Murder "A person commits an offense if he: (1) intentionally OR knowingly causes the death of an INDIVIDUAL; (2) intends to cause the serious bodily injury and commints an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an INDIVIDUAL;"... Also, here are two elements of "Capital Murder"... 19.03 A person commits an offense if the person commits murder as defined under section 19.02 AND: (3)the person commits the murder for remuneration or the promise of remuneration or employs another to commit the murder for remuneration or the promise of remuneration; (8) the person murders an INDIVIDUAL under the age of 6yrs. Don't these fit with abortion clinics? A woman pays a doctor to abort her baby..ie she "emplys another to commit the murder for remuneration"to an individual "under the age of 6yrs.

Faerie,shanstress, I am glad to see that at least some people have a clue! Most people don't look at the big picture. Like myself in the military. Sure we don't make "a lot" of money and there are some who complain...on the other hand, when we get into combat situations we suffer FAR less casualty than ANY who have challenged us. Most of our deaths and injuries come from someone not paying attention and hurting or killing themselves. I personally don't mind being paid less if I have better bennies, training, and tools to get the job done. Same with medical expences. You get what you pay for.

I ask you the same thing "Mrs lady holding a ball of fire".

Having an abortion is the WOMAN's choice....not the man's because it is HER body right? So if the father wants the child and the mother does not and gets an abortion the father is SOL? Then why if you turn it around and the mother wants the child but the father doesn't he is FORCED to pay child support? Why does the woman have a way out but not the father? Why can a mother get away with nothing less than murder but the father can be fined and jailed for nothing less and nothing more than neglect? Please somone explain this to me. PS I also think that men and women who put themselves in this situation are both equally stupid. And should have "kept their pants on"

I also agree that the best man for the job has won. I am also glad that Kerry put up such an awsome fight. I think its a good thing that he helped rock the boat as it were. We need that from time to time to keep this nations views and ideas from becoming stagnant.

Everyone here who has children. Look at them. Watch them play. Then think, "What if I had chosen to flush your little developing body down the toilet because I wasn't "man " enough to take on the responsability of the CHOICE I MADE in the sack.

Yeah, cause even me and the devil believe in God.

You say that as if they stink?

I refrenced this song in one of the posts (can't quite remember which one). Anyway, here are the lyrics to that song. Wish I may Wish I might Have this I wish tonight Are you satisfied? Dig for gold Dig for fame You dig to make your name Are you pacified? All the wants you waste All the things you've chased Then it all crashes down And you break your crown And you point your finger But there's no one around Just want one thing Just to play the king But the castle's crumbled And you're left with just a name Where's your crown King Nothing? Where's your crown? Hot and cold Bought and sold A heart as hard as gold Yeah! Are you satisfied? Wish I might Wish I may You wish your life away Are you pacified? All the wants you waste All the things you've chased Then it all crashes down And you break your crown And you point your finger But there's no one around Just want one thing Just to play the king But the castle's crumbled And you're left with just a name Where's your crown King Nothing? Where's your crown? Huh! (Spoken) I wish I may I wish I might Have this wish I wish tonight I want that star I want it now I want it all and I don't care how Careful what you wish Careful what you say Careful what you wish You may regret it Careful what you wish You just might get it (sing) Then it all crashes down And you break your crown And you point your finger But there's no one around Just want one thing Just to play the king But the castle's crumbled And you're left with just a name Where's your crown King Nothing? No Nothing No you're just nothing Where's your crown King Nothing? No you're just nothing Absolutely nothing

Yes. How do you know her? Do you work at the Tempanogus Temple? Or did you just research Hugh's family tree?

You're uncle Setheus? Like uncle, uncle? well tech he is my "great-uncle". My Grandmother's older brother.

Thats really sad, and embarrassing since our founding fathers we're all very religious men.We've become what we fear the most. A Godless country. Lots and lots of lip service though.

Then why was Nephi commanded to kill Laban? Couldn't he have just been struck dumb and blind? I understand what you are saying Snow, but in the words of Anne Rice's character Lestat, this is a "savage garden" we live in.

Well Snow, in Saudi Arabia I saw with my own eyes a man beheaded for raping a woman...then saw with my own eyes that raped woman stoned to death for being "impure". I asked the locals around me what was going on and ( I am not fully fluent in Arabic) what they told me was that she did not have 4 adult male wittnesses to testify that she had not "provoked" the rape in some way..ie dress, attitude etc. So Snow there you have it. If that can still happen today then why couldn't Abe have sacrificed his son at the Lords command? And remember Abe didn't live in America or Brittan or Canada

Appology accepted. I'm not man enough to put one child's life in front of another. Thats why I thank God that I am not in His place. He "had" to make that choice. Fortunately for us He had a Son who was willing to accept what was needed and to follow through with it for our sakes. I said that there are endless solutions....well in the broad scope of things there was only ONE solution and that was the Plan of Salvation. Look at the ONLY choice God had if He wanted to redeem His children. He had to choose. And He didn't send His spouse. That wasn't enough. That payment was not high enough for the cost to redeem man kind.

"Setheus and USN then said that they would tell that gunman which child to kill to keep everyone else from being killed,..." --Ray Where did I say that? " In other words, I would not play the gunman’s game, and I would instead try to help him see the “real” situation that existed." --Ray You can't even keep up with the "real" responces I have given you. What makes you think you're going to show some "bad guy" the light? I think Lindy painted you a pretty black and white picture. You either can't accept it or wont accept it. Let me share a piece of my life with you Ray. This situation was not exactley as your "gunman" situation but it was a life or death situation. I had the pleasure of being captured and held in a camp. I had some knowledge that the enemy would have loved to get at. Because of what I knew I could not assosiate with the other amarican's. I didn't want to give away anything about myself and talking to the others would not only put me in danger, but them as well. They beat me. They threatened me with rape. They threatened to kill other american captives if I didn't talk. etc How did I personally deal with this? I "went crazy". I pretended to ride invisible motorcycles everywhere I went. To the bathroom, to be interrogated, back to my cell, everywhere. When I stood up I went through the motions of getting on and starting up the bike. I put my helmet on. And when the guards began to try and "take away" my bikes I would go "buy" new ones. I kept this up for 16 weeks. I told them Bandidos for life! After 16 weeks they arranged to have me turned over to "some people" who arranged for me to be sent back to my command. That was very hard because I wanted to help the remaining americans and britts and some journalists make a plan of escape. But with my intel I had to ensure that was not found out by the captors. But since I was able to get away I reported everything I had learned from my 16 weeks and enabled a Marine Recon Unit to ambush the camp and resue my fellow captives Now Ray, do you see how a situation as almost endless solutions? I would never resort to "telling the gunman which child to kill" thats cowardace, unrightious, and just stupid. You've got to think outside the box. There is no telling the gunman the "real" situation. He created the situation. Its already real to him just the way he sees it. You have to remember you're in "his world". Figure out what he wants and then make him think its not there. Don't play hard to get. That just encourages him. Be seemingly open and show him you're not worth the time and energy. Look for a chance to kill or escape. and another thing....NEVER STOP PRAYING!

I have faith in Christ. I trust in Him. I have trusted in Him many many times in my life. And to let you in on something, the "psycology I've learned from an instructor" has worked for me more than once. Think back to the parable of the talents. The Lord will provide, but sometimes He puts the decision making in our hands. The trick isn't to always play the hand thats delt. The goal is to try and stack the deck in your favor as much as possible.

to make a liar of myself I will reply to this.... I would not murder in order to save myself. I would kill however if that is what was nessesary. To murdur is an act of cowardace in the example you have given. Do you know the differance between killing and murduring? And until you have had training in anti-terrorisim I'll hold off on survival tactics until you have a basic understanding of the psycology involved here.

well then go into detail about it. Prove what you say is true. Until then Randy 1 Your friend 0. I have family in SLC and my uncle is Hugh Nibley and with all the connections that come with being the nephew of such a prominant member I have not even heard of what "your friend" proposes. However if I am in err, prove it to me...to us.

in 5th grade I played the Bass. I was a runt and it was so big next to me that I had to stand in a chair to play it and my mom had to carry it everywhere for me. For some reason I didn't play in the 6th...or ever again.

How right you are Snow. (which is not uncommon) however, the LDS Church isn't making it a huge issue nor letting it dominate in sermons. If I came across as cold, I am sorry for any offences. But gay is still gay and it is still wrong. "Ok, I won't be gay anymore. Pinky Swear!" ---Big Gay Al, South Park

I'm all for Rock music. I had the honor of being at a party in Hermosa Beach with James, Jason, and Lars of the Band Metallica. Great guys and I still try and talk them into going to church with me. I think rock music can have some of the deepest messages in its lyrics (and also the most retarded and obscene and pointless sometimes too) BUT Why mosh at a church dance? If you want to Mosh, go to a rock concert. Church dances are meant for social amd emotional growth. They are for getting to know your peers and "putting down some game" on the ladies. B)

I believe He said "I am that I am" not I am that we are. I do believe that Christ and Heavenly Father are seperate individuals but one as far as a "Godhead" goes. ie..like a marriage. But I understand that it is confusing when Christ speaks "as" the Father for example all through the Old Testament. But perhaps looking at it this way may help. In the US Navy when the Commanding Officer of lets say the USS Elliot or USS Coronado boards the ship he is the captain of the Officer of the Deck makes an announcement over the 1-MC (intercom) that he is arriving or departing the ship. Now, as he comes or goes the announcement is not "Capt John Doe arriving/departing" wrather it is said "Elliot arriving/departing, or Coronado arriving/departing". The ship is not boarding itself or leaving itself. But the Captain of the ship is concidered the ship for all functional purposes. Make sence? I don't know who owns this message board but who ever it is it would be the same as when they log on all of us recieving a message that reads "LDSTalk.com is now logged on" I hope I made a little sence here.