Maxel

Hey LittleWyvern- What to say... Well, I can tell you that if you didn't lie to your bishop about worthiness, and are willing to work in the Lord's vineyard with all your might, mind, and strength; you are more than ready to serve a mission. Any past mistakes you may have made are made clean through the atonement of Christ, whose Gospel you are preparing to preach to others. May I remind you that some of those prophets you idolize (for good reason!) also felt unworthy? Joseph Smith suffered from the same problem of looking at his defects and not his strengths when he was first called to the work (even beforehand): If the Lord has called you to the harvest, He has qualified you. You can do nothing now to change any past mistakes you may have made. Use this time to foster the qualities truly important to a mission- faith, hope, charity, love, and an eye single to the glory of God- and you shall do wonderfully.

Uuuuhh.... That would clear the situation up, then. Thanks for posting that. QFT

Hhm... That conclusion fits, john doe. I'd still like to know if the law pertains only to monetary contributions made to a certain government campaign, or to any efforts to support prop. 8 at all. I also agree with your assessment of this being a mountain made out of a molehill. In addition, I think it is relevant where the money came from: tithe and offering money, money donated through the tithing system but specifically for proposition 8 (like putting 'proposition 8 campaign' in the 'Other' section on a tithing slip), or the business holdings of the church. It seems that if the money is donated in the last way than there's no legal case for the church being taken off its tax-exempt status- the hoped-for result of this investigation, for the church's opponents.

Yes, I think it should be two different movies, two different posters, and the conversation must make sense somehow. I think I'll start the next one: "[if you don't get on that plane, you'll regret it.] Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow... but soon, and for the rest of your life." (Casablanca)

One major source is Abraham 3, particularly verses 22-28. There's more, particularly in the Doctrine and Covenants.Beyond that, I believe much of our understanding comes from snippets of prophetic wisdom, either from the mouths of living prophets or the writings of previous ones. I don't know where to point you in those cases.

Thanks for that post, Angelao. Helps a lot with understanding the situation. I fear this is where my general naivete with money and government comes to light. Looking over the site cited, a few questions come to mind. 1) Is this listing contributions made from the Church to support prop. 8, or payments made to the church and other entities? The category 'Payee' confuses me. I am assuming the 'Payee' is the person who made the contribution, although the more appropriate term would seem (to me) to be 'Payer'. If the 'Payee' is actually the organization listed next to the amount, then who actually gave the payee the money? 2) Where is the $180/$190k estimate coming from? The two largest contributions (totaling $118k) are from the LDS Church, granted, but the rest are from sources that are not the LDS church. I do see a lot of contributions from 'Marriot, Marc K' and other names I recognize as affiliates of the Church, but nothing beyond the $118k seems to come from the Church proper. 3) All the payment types are 'Non-Monetary'. If they're not monetary payments... what kind are they? 4) Is this an investigation into how much money was expended by the Church to fight for Proposition 8 in general, or how much money was donated by the Church for some governmental agency officially campaigning for Proposition 8? Does a difference between the two matter when it comes to this issue- that is, if the Church is running an operation separate from an official, governmental campaign for Proposition 8, does that still count as money 'donated' to the campaign? Please understand I know very little of how the political system works in these situations, and my question is spawned of a large amount of ignorance. 5) Under the 'Expenditures Made' option, the two largest contributions are marked as 'Compensated staff time' and 'Use of facilities and equipment'. I would be interested to know what those staff members were working on, which facilities and equipment was used, and what they were used for. Lots of questions- most of them rising from ignorance on my end, no doubt. I'm waiting for an official statement from someone in the Church before I make up my mind. Apparently, no one has been able to get an official response yet.

I would say that both of your statements are true. Let me explain my previous post a little better.When asked your question about someone reading the Bible and deciding that Jesus is God and there only being one God, I assumed the following scenario: someone who has had no exposure to any form of Christianity before picks up a copy of the Bible, reads all the way through it once in one sitting, puts it down, and thinks to himself "I like this Christ chap, and I think he's spot on. I think he is God, and the only God!" (Don't ask me why he was British, but in my mind's eye he was) Although this fictitious event was unrealistic (who can read the whole Bible in one sitting?) I believe the basic spirit of your question was preserved. From that event, I moved onwards: is the man, in his conclusions, incorrect or deceived? I decided the man was definitely not deceived, as one main point of the Bible is to declare the Gospel of Jesus Christ- that is, the Good Word of Christ's message. Central to that message is that Christ is God, the only God; the only means whereby we can attain salvation. Although the man was not deceived, his understanding is not complete because the Bible also stresses the ignominious state of human existence, and the fact that the only road to salvation leads to the feet of Jesus Christ, through the atonement that He wrought while living on the earth. If a man concludes that A.) Jesus is God and that B.) there is only one God; and that is the extent of his knowledge about Christ, than the man's knowledge is nascent and very basic. Personally, I don't believe a person can qualify to be a Christian (if we define 'Christian' by the beliefs a person holds) until they believe the points already stated, and understand that Christ's atonement and godly grace is absolutely essential to our eternal salvation. Also, they have to understand in someway that there is life after this life, and that Christ came to redeem us so that our afterlife could be glorious, and filled with God's presence. Forgive my waxing garrulous; the point I am bringing this to is that the man's understanding of Christ is basically complete, yet still missing some vital pieces. He's grasped the Bible's central message, but still has more to learn before he understands all the basics of Christ's message, which is prerequisite to one being a true Christian. In other words, his basic understanding of Christ's divinity is complete, but his understanding of the base teachings of Christ are incomplete.

Jay, I am so sorry you are going through this. I agree with Dove- for some reason your Bishop is not handling this properly, and a higher authority than him needs to be called in. Call your stake president immediately! Even if your bishop has good intentions at heart, he is violating your family's privacy. I don't know if Canada has laws about separation of church and state, but it would make sense, as it seems they used the USA as a political 'road map' when forming the national laws. Don't let this experience affect your faith in the Church. Sometimes, people called to positions of authority aren't the best people for the job. I have no explanation as to why that is, other than to point to the failings and frailty of man. The bottom line is that your bishop has invaded your family's privacy and seems on the verge of illegally stalking your children. Something seems definitely not right. Most of all, stay close to the spirit as you move forward. I am praying for your family, and I hope you're able to get this resolved soon.

No problem, hope everything is all right. Your post has taken off quite well since then, so good luck if you're hoping to weigh in on everything that's been said, lol. Actually, I would argue that the person grasped the basic message of the Bible quite well, and is well on their way to a life in the service of God. Their basic understanding is definitely not complete, but I don't blame them in the slightest.

Yes, according to our view of eternity. However, the ancient Hebrews- whom the Old Testament was written for- had a different view of the concept. To arrive at the most honest interpretation of a text, we must keep in mind the author and the audience the text was intended for. Isaiah was a master poet, so I assume he was well aware of the basics of writing- that is, to keep your audience in mind and use symbolism and wording that they recognize. That's all I'm pointing out.

I would want to get to know who he was, and feel the spirit that he exuded. I would ask him about his life, some questions I've had about him, and ask him to pray with me. I would wish to embrace him and thank him for the life he sacrificed that I may know about the restored Gospel. Most of all, I'd plea with him to bear me his testimony about Christ and God the Father, and the church.

Jobiwon, Isaiah was written by a Hebrew prophet, for Hebrews with traditional Hebrew understanding. The ancient Hebrews understood the concept of 'eternity' as a series of time, immeasurably long by human standards, but with beginnings and end. Eternity began before human existence, and will end long after, but it still had a beginning and end. Therefore, even though God is (rightly) described as being extant throughout eternity, the people for whom that statement was meant for would have understood that there was time before, and a time after, eternity. That says nothing about the actual eternal nature of God. Indeed, I believe God's intelligence to never have been created, and will never end. It has existed through all eternity- our concept of eternity. Please, cease and desist your attempts to antagonize us. If you have a legitimate question, please post it. However, do not come in here, wave around a scripture or two, and tell us our faith is defunct. Do the Christian thing.

I think the argument about 'who created God' is as fruitless as the argument 'who created Love'- we don't know, we can't know on this Earth because it's not given to us to know beyond a doubt. To some, individually, it may be given, but to those that receive they would be under the strictest mandate not to share that information with the world- only in select circumstances, to select audiences, when directed by the Holy Ghost. Official LDS doctrine (by that I mean 'canonical scripture') does not definitively say anything about the origin of God, and the LDS are under no obligation to explain it to someone whose sole aim is to belittle our beliefs. The discussion, bred of contention, will not resolve into peace except those discussing confine themselves to reflecting God's discourse on the elements to Job: As the Lord commands the temporal elements of this earth, he also commands the amount of knowledge that we His creatures are given on this earth. The knowledge of who made God, if any other force did, is not made known unto us.

This is a very, very serious subject. There are ways to show forth 'great signs and wonders' that are note of God's priesthood. Topical Guide: False Christs; All italicized/bold text is my doing to emphasize certain points.As cjmaldrich said, the Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) describes the second coming of Christ in all His power and glory: Link; Italicized text my doing.It's safe to say that we need not worry ourselves about any claiming to be Christ before His actual coming. He will not come to the masses until that day, in His power and glory. Until then, keep your eyes rooted on the actual prophets and apostles. No new revelation will be given to the earth concerning God's kingdom or doctrine except through them. All my citations are from restoration scripture- that is, scripture that has come about during and since the life of the prophet Joseph Smith. There will be many deceivers come at the last day with such skill that they would deceive the elect of God, were it able to be done. I believe that, sadly, if a charismatic person claiming to be Christ came and was able to show some sort of wonder, than he would gain a large following. However, he would be a charlatan.

Hm, the link you posted has little information. I would be interested in knowing exactly how the extra money was spend, other than 'using Salt Lake City facilities' and 'paying employees'. Would be interesting to follow this story. Thanks, Just_A_Guy.

I think there are certain sexual practices that are forbidden in the Kingdom of God. One cannot count the perversions that have been contrived as 'sexual pleasures', but ([EDIT:]I felt really uncomfortable with what I listed, so I deleted the items.) I'm not married, and this is a touchy topic, so that's all I'm going to say, as it's frankly all I know. Maxel out.

You ninja me, I ninja you! Wait... Wrong post.

I think in all faiths, there comes a point where the faithful must simply abandon their understanding and logic and trust in the divine power of God. For those of the Trinitarian tradition, the Trinity is one of those points. For the LDS, we find those points in different questions (i.e., if God and Man is the same species, where did that species originate?).

I think he abandoned us.

If you're in danger of hurting yourself, get some immediate help, like LittleWyvern and jolee suggested. Just tell someone you know will be able to help you take care of it.Either way, keep your channels to Heavenly Father open, like trulykiwi suggested. And, DON'T feel like you have to put on a happy face for the world. As children of God, it is our right and our imperative to act sad when we are sad.

Where's the other thread located?

Hmm... I don't smoke... Poker face!

You ninja me, I ninja you!

Wow, that really is a tough one... I guess, at this point in my life, I would regret not telling my ex-girlfriend I'm sorry it didn't work out and that I'll always be there for her in as many words.

Guys, I don't think Jobiwon is legit. And by legit I mean 'not interested in antagonizing the Mormons'.But, he might be: what's your background, Jobiwon, and what do you mean by asking us why we worship a man?