Maxel

[anger] Your story is completely inconsistent with the real facts of human life. You were met with love- did you see how many people tried to help you? I wrote a heartfelt post just for you- it's too bad you completely skipped it in your eagerness to bash us. It's when you start preaching to us about how 'bad' the LDS are that something's not right. From satanist to holier-than-thou... Quite a spiritual trip. I'm glad you forgive us for finding you out. I forgive you for lying, or being a bald-faced hypocrite, whichever it is. If you honestly think the LDS church doctrine doesn't emphasize Grace enough, you're free to find one that suits you. There's also plenty of restoration branches out there that claim to have the truth because the LDS church 'fell away' or 'doesn't practice correct practices' anymore. On a side note, if you don't think the LDS church emphasizes grace enough, you've completely missed the point- If you had studied the scriptures more and satanistic texts less, you would have understood that. This thread needs to be closed. [/anger]

Maxel 5. I never play anymore though.

Man, I feel your pain. The hard truth is that, while you're addicted to pornography and masturbation, marriage should be the last thing on your mind. You cannot, in good conscience, marry a woman while addicted to either. It is somewhat incredible that, when you admitted your addictions to your mission president and other authorities, they didn't react in a stronger way! However, I have a roommate that experienced the exact same thing from his mission president, so it's not unique. It seems you're not in love with this girl, as in your details of the pros about her, you didn't list 'I love her'. It is the brutal reality of addiction (especially pornography) that it interferes with a person's ability to create and sustain healthy, interpersonal relationships. Breaking a pornography/masturbation addiction is hard enough; the temptation and enticement of a romantic relationship increase the difficulty. President Kimball said that the idea that 'every person has a soul mate' is blasphemous. This girl is not the only fish in the sea. And, if you are one of the rare exceptions to the no-soul-mate rule (i.e., she is your soul mate) then breaking off the relationship so you can fix your own morality will not affect whether you will be together with her in the long run. Addiction is serious, and pornographic and masturbatory addictions are particularly hard to overcome. I've heard it said that breaking an addiction to pornography is more difficult than breaking an addiction to hard drugs. You'll need all your energy. Have you talked to your bishop recently about your addictions, and how you are doing at breaking them? Most stakes have 12-step addiction recovery groups that meet regularly. I've attended them, and they work wonders for helping in the recovery process. Finally, and most importantly, how do you feel you are doing in your personal relationship with God? Do you pray and read your scriptures regularly? Do you ponder the things you read and try to go to the Lord with your problems? A healthy spiritual life is key to recovering from addiction.

HoosierGuy, you and I need to go out and do something sometime. I've struggled with clinical depression all my life, and I've found that in the war against negative thoughts, you don't lose as much as might think you do. Then again, you may lose as much as you think you do. It's really confusing. One of my therapists explained thoughts in a way to me that helped me cope with a certain problem I was having. He said that we hear things in our everyday lives that affect us more than we like to think. Casual insults (or 'teasing') such as "you're stupid", "you're ugly", "you're worthless", etc. dig into the core of our being and let down their poisonous roots. Later, we play those phrases over and over again in our heads: they become our own personal 'tape recordings' that dictate who we are to ourselves. Part of recovery is learning to A) identify when the tapes are playing, B.) identify what the tapes are saying, and C) learning how to effectively replace those negative messages with positive messages. Once you've gotten those three items mastered, the key is total immersion (like baptism). You must immerse yourself in a wave of good thoughts in whichever way works best for you: write yourself happy thoughts (that specifically reflect positively on you as a person) and stick them on the bathroom mirror, on the refrigerator, etc.; memorize a few key phrases like "I'm a good person", "I'm a nice guy", "I'm a handsome fellow!", etc. and repeat them to yourself whenever you start to feel attacked by bad thoughts; whatever works. Part of the recovery process is learning how you specifically are affected by the depression, and how you specifically can overcome it. During this process, keeping a specific 'depression journal' can help greatly- write down any progress, breakthroughs, or frustrations you have with overcoming your depression. The most important thing, though, is to keep close to Heavenly Father throughout your struggles. Since time immemorial, His children have dealt with depression, and the atonement covers all of it: the bad feelings, any sins we commit because of our depression, the remorse we feel- all of it! Never, at any time, let your grip on the iron rod falter- it will prove your ultimate salvation from those thoughts. Good luck man! Keep us posted, and keep seeing your therapist (and a psychiatrist if needed). If you want to talk one-on-one about anything, I'm always free- PM me if you feel so inclined. -Maxel

Everyone else has done an admirable job providing knowledge; I thought I'd just toss in my mom's survivor story, and ways she helped overcome Chronic Fatigue.First of all, she was diagnosed with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (an actual medical condition; I don't know if you have that or not) back in the late 1990's. She had not married well, and my dad didn't do anything to help her around the house or with the kids while she was a full-time mom, ran her own business, taught art classes, etc. It caught up with her and she was bedridden for 2 years. After that, she was able to get up and move around with the help of a walker/wheelchair. She was determined to overcome the illness, and was given many priesthood blessings at her own behest. She struggled onward, but the healing process didn't begin until she reevaluated what she was doing in her life, and comparing her own lifestyle to that prescribed by scripture. One verse in particular, D&C 10:4, helped her a lot: As she grew spiritually through prayer, she was able to heal completely! Remarkably, the healing process occurred during a period of great personal upheaval: she got divorced, moved twice (once across country), worked full time (running a daycare from her home!), was a full time mom, and went back to school. The real catalyst for healing was the focusing of her most vital energies into the living of the Gospel inasmuch as she was able.

I called it first! It might seem harsh, but I do believe the situation requires a little bit of levity... Onetimequestion, if you ever read this, please know that we are faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Emphasis on Jesus Christ. If you want to know more about our religion, go to lds.org, or mormon.org, or be honest and come to us. If you wish to share your views with us, then there is a proper method and place to do so. If you want to argue and tell us we're wrong... Christ has said that contention is of the devil, and I would worry more about yourself than us. Motes and specks, and all that. Further reflection makes me think the community at LDS.net can view this as a mark of pride: whoever it was knew that we would come out of the woodwork to try to help a brother in need. I guess it means we're doing good at the whole 'trying to be like Christ' thing. And I view being a true Christian and trying to be Christ-like as the same thing, thank you very much. Maxel out.

....? At no time have I ascribed the term 'eternal damnation' to you, nor brought your own spiritual well-being into this topic. All of my examples have been from the first-person perspective, and have been purely demonstrative as opposed to real examples. In other words, I've been having a discussion. Judging by this remark, it seems that you somehow feel an emotional connection to the topic, as you are unable to distinguish example from actual fact. Forgive the harsh implications of this next statement, as candidness seems the best approach here: you are simply unable or unwilling to comprehend what I'm explaining. Despite multiple posts explaining the meaning of 'eternal damnation' (how I'm using it anyway), you staunchly refuse to see the point I'm making, though it is not a hard one to grasp. When LittleWyvern offers an explanation for our disagreement (I believe 'verbal gymnastics' was the term he used) you flatly refuse that as a possibility, though it was actually the case. Then, there's the personalizing of remarks not aimed at your person. I see no further reason to pursue this discussion.

My new mission in life: move to Utah so I can participate in these get togethers. And go to BYU.

I sense you're angry at my remark. Your understanding of my meaning is entirely off base, as well. When someone hears a doctrine taught that affects them because of their lifestyle, they react in someway. If someone told me that all 21 year old white men who like to watch movies are actually Cuban in origin, then I would have to react someway to the information: either dismiss it, be amused by it, or look into the claim. If it were something much more serious, like my eternal progression, it would be no laughing matter. However, I would still be forced to react. If someone called me 'eternally damned', I would have to react in some way, and my human nature wants to revile against it. However, I have to look at my own life and see if I am actually living in a way that merits eternal damnation. What you were taught in Mormonism is all correct. It is not all or nothing, there are degrees of glory. However, the lesser degrees are not as glorious as the greater degrees. If we look at glory like a ray of light, and the farther the ray travels is the amount of glory each kingdom possesses, then ray representing the telestial kingdom is stopped ('damned') before the ray representing the terestrial kingdom would, which would be stopped before the ray for the celestial kingdom would. Eternal progression is expressed by a ray that is never stopped- going on forever. 'Eternal damnation' is a characteristic of all the other rays because they, somewhere, are stopped.

Nope, I would find the term biting and acerbic. Then again, the hit bird flutters.Eternal damnation is very real, however, it's not the 'eternal damnation' that some Christian churches teach (fire and brimstone, etc.). Also, there are multiple uses of the same term to imply the varying degrees of the punishment it is. LittleWyvern and I both explained its basic meaning earlier. In essence, it means any 'cap' on progressing in glory in the life after this, no matter where it is. Only those who inherit Celestial glory will have no cap at all, therefore inheriting eternal progression.

I think I deserve a Nobel Prize for Longest, Most Rambling Poster. Again, my apologies but it feels wrong to cut it. EDIT: I think I killed it. My apologies.

AnthonyB, I admire the thoughts that you've come up with and the skill with which you presented your case. If I may, I'd like to comment and offer my opinion. Is it better to work together for evil, or work apart for good? In the same vein, is it better to work together for good, or work apart for evil? In which manner will a group of people accomplish more?One moral of the Tower of Babel is that it is better that man work apart for good than to work together for evil. However, that truth does not affect a situation where the choices were working together for good, or working together for evil. In that situation, the only question is: is it better to work together, or apart? May I suggest that working together is to be unified, and working apart is to be divided? May I suggest a central theme of Christ's message is to be unified, and to put away our divisions? What does it mean to be divided? Is division the same as diversity? If I like to dance, and you like to paint, does that mean we must live in a different culture, speak a different language so that our communication is hindered, and believe different things about the same God? If I like to dance the tango, and you like to dance traditional waltzes, can we not celebrate our diversities together and still worship the same God and belong to the same religion? What diversities are important? Is a diversity among religion the same thing as a diversity of wholesome culture? If I believe in the concept of the Trinity, and you believe in the concept of the LDS Godhead, is that as trivial as if I like American food and you like Italian? If I believe, wholeheartedly, in the Nicean Creed and you reject it as a work of man, is that as inconsequential as preferring watching Soccer to Baseball? Are all things we encounter and do in this life of equal value? Can not a single culture encompass all of the valid diversities we see in the world? Could not one culture include Mexican architecture, Indian cuisine, and American sports? Could it not include people who looked different, act different, like different entertainment? It could- but it falls to the people who live inside that culture to be accepting of diversity. Religion strikes human beings at the very heart of the soul: it deals with who we are, where we came from, and where we're going in this life. Pure religion is the greatest philosophy, the greatest system of ethics, and the greatest supplier of inspirational anecdotes the world has ever seen. No creation of man rivals the institution of pure religion: because pure religion was given to this earth from a power higher than man. No culture that encompasses the whole of wholesome human creativity could unite under anything other than the True Religion. If a man sees a doctor because his knee is broken, what will the doctor tell him? The doctor sets the leg and counsels the patient. The patient must care for his knee: he must know what to do and what not to do. He must wait for weeks, walking on crutches and coddling his knee. A big race is coming. Before the end of it, he must have recovered and be running with all his might, or else he has failed. ------------------------------------------------ The preceding was a stream-of-consciousness piece that I am content with. As such, I will not edit or condense. My apologies for the loquacious writing, and the fact that a valid conclusion was not reached for my argument. The rest will be much more on point. Should we rejoice in the diversity of our doctrine, or in the parts where our faith is unified? What do you mean by the 'expressions of that faith'? If you mean the expressions of charity and service that is often characterized as Christian, than that is the expression of a common theme of our faith, not a differing doctrine. If you mean something else, forgive me not understanding you.A hard fact of human life is that expressions of philosophies differing from our own is hard to bear. It's so hard to bear, in fact, that immature and corrupt men will punish anyone who makes such expressions (religious, philosophical, and artistic intolerance of the Dark Ages, for example). It was such intolerance that lead the Pilgrims to the land that would be deemed 'America'. May I posit a theory. In times past, before the Church was restored, the religious state of affairs was as you described. There was no true Church to join, so Christians had to grin and bear it and do the best they could. However, would unity wait until the Second Coming? Before Christ appeared on earth in the flesh, at the meridian of time, He sent His prophet John the Baptist to prepare the way for Him. John's message was one of preparation, of spiritual preparation for the advent of Christ's ministry. Before Christ came again, he would again need a forerunner. However, because the second time he would manifest himself to the whole world, he would need a forerunner that could bring His message to 'every creature': he would need His organized Church. The Lord shall send Elijah to us before the Second Coming. Indeed, the Lord has sent Elijah to us. He not only returned the hearts of the fathers and children to each other, his coming signified the commencement of the gathering of Israel. His coming was one of the signs that the Lord's work had commenced. And, the Lord does not work among men, except he reveals his will to his prophets.God scatters us to curse us for our sins, he gathers us to bless us for our righteousness. Without an organized entity already established well before the national crises that will herald the 'beginning of the end', the Lord would have no way to authoritatively make his voice known to the inhabitants of the earth. He warned the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, and of Babylon. He will not leave us without warning, and such a warning must come from His authorized ministers. Furthermore, his ministers must be trained in the godly life and have His priesthood to be able to work in His name. That could not realistically happen without a Church of God in place to teach those ministers correct doctrine, and to help their families raise them in righteousness. Such a unity is needed, it is the only healthy state of affairs the world can function in. The wheat must grow up with the chaff, only to be separated at the day of the harvest. That means that in these last days, when the evil chaff of the world is at its strongest, the righteous wheat of the world must also be at its strongest. All the blessings past Christians have ever enjoyed must be present today, and then some. That includes a unified, authoritative church. Remember that Christ came at a time when many false Christs were proclaiming to be the Messiah. Christ was one man, and during his lifetime his influence was barely felt beyond his immediate presence. However, He was not just a man; he was God, and His power and influence swept the whole world. Similarly, His Church is one among many that make the same claim. The truth of the matter lies beyond words, it lies in man's communion with God.

Good point, let me elaborate. In my post I was attempting to offer no real definition of 'Christian', but to illustrate the difficulty in labeling one as 'Christian' or 'un-Christian'. You are correct that attempting a definition serves to 'reveal the agenda of the person offering the definition'. However, that is the very reason I believe the Church proper, and I myself, are adamant in proclaiming that we are Christians. When we look at the many nuances applied to the word 'Christian' that society has applied to it over the years, and the fact that the uninformed often label 'Christians' as one large group, and the fact that Christ has commanded us to 'take His name upon us', it is imperative that the world see us Mormons as Christians and that we act like the disciples of Christ that the name implies. The problem arises when representatives of the main body of Christianity attempt to exclude us from the Christian category over irrelevant details (such as us not accepting the ancient Creeds) or made-up facts (such as that we don't really worship Christ). The tone of my post is in response to yours: I purposely gave no definition of 'Christian' but instead pointed to the problem of defining a 'Christian' if one approaches it as an exercise in labeling some with doctrinal correctness, and others without. I believe, and I believe scripture supports me here, that when we begin to separate ourselves according to doctrinal nuances, we lose the spirit of Christ entirely. Now that I've explained my problem with defining one's Christianity by their doctrinal beliefs, I would say a Christian is anyone who truly worships Christ for who Christ truly is.That's ambiguous on purpose, and totally useless in terms of classification (unless you're God). I don't think that's how the LDS Church would define it. I believe the prophet would say a Christian is anyone who worships Christ as Savior and God. I believe a statement such as that leaves room for degrees of Christianity, not black-and-white inclusion or exclusion.

'Eternal damnation' can be used to express the lack of 'eternal progression'. No matter how glorious the telestial kingdom is, there will be no increase of glory- those going to the telestial kingdom are forever barred from fulfilling the intrinsic potential of every human being. Of course, the kicker is that eternal damnation is as much a choice as eternal progression.

... in a dating relationship? ... in a friendship? ... in a marriage? So, I feel led by the spirit tonight and I was going to write something solely about potential spouses, but I feel it should be expanded a little bit. I think a lot of the angst and anxiety and agony that the YSA of the Church experience over dating is avoidable, if we could come to terms with the reasons behind dating relationships and marriage relationships. Knowledge is power, after all, and godly knowledge is greater power. I want this discussion to be open to everyone, so feel free to contribute! Also, I'm no expert (not even close) on these subjects, so please take everything I say- and anyone else says- with a grain of salt. First of all, I think it's helpful to define the level of emotional commitment that we, as mortal humans, put into each kind of relationship (friendship, dating/courting, and marriage) and rank them based on that. Friendship: Involves the expenditure of time, effort, and understanding to create a relationship that ideally lasts the rest of two people's lives. In a healthy friendship, both people are working to overcome obstacles of social, spiritual, and other differences. The ideal product of a friendship is a 'friend': someone who supports you in your righteous endeavors, is with you to mourn when you mourn and comfort you when you need comforting. Finally, a friend is someone who can rejoice with you when you are rejoicing. Purpose: To expand our own souls, and increase the number of people our souls have affected and the number of people who have affected our own souls in a positive manner. To help create a network of emotional support. Dating: Involves the expenditure of time, effort, understanding, and monetary goods (more so than a friendship) to create a relationship that hopefully lasts the rest of two people's lives. It is unique in that it can only be healthily enacted by a man and a woman; precluding same-gender relationships and third members in the relationship. There are three phases: dating, courtship, and engagement. Dating: In the dating stage, a young man and young woman bend their schedules and efforts in an attempt to be around each other frequently in a variety of settings. To be healthy dating, there must be an adequate mixture of spontaneous and premeditated activities. There should also be an expenditure, within reason, of monetary possessions during said activities. Any one person may healthily have more than one dating relationship at a time, although the lines between dating and courtship are not set in stone. A dating relationship is not a contract of any kind, regardless of its length or emotional commitment. Courtship: In the courtship stage, a young man and young woman have been dating for a time sufficient to know they want to pursue a more serious and lasting relationship. When courting, the two parties have no other dating relationships (they're 'going steady' or 'going out'). Courtships are perfect for making sure one's partner is truly the kind of person one would like to marry. Courtships are geared and designed to lead to engagement and marriage. Engagement: In the engagement stage, a young man and young woman have publicly declared their love for one another, and have entered into a mutually understood contract of marriage. Engagement is the time between the agreement of the contract (i.e., the proposal) and the wedding day itself. It is a time for the couple to further work out any minor or major differences that might cause friction in the married life inasmuch as they are able to. Engagement is one of the most trying times in terms of sexual purity. In all the stages of dating, there is more emotional commitment than is present in a regular friendship. Dating implies an attraction of one of the parties to the other on a level deeper than merely thinking the other is a 'son or daughter of God that I don't mind hanging out with'- there's some sort of spiritual and emotional attraction, and hopefully some physical as well. Courtship implies a deeper attraction and a deeper desire for emotional closeness, while engagement declares a desire for the deepest kind of emotional attraction and closeness that exists among humans: being married. Purpose: The purpose of dating (in all its stages) is twofold: self-discovery (what kind of person do I want to marry; what kind of person am I compatible with) and finding 'the right person' (or, the person that you'll marry. President Kimball said that the idea of everyone having a soul mate is of the devil; although there are certain cases where people have soul mates). Marriage: Involves the expenditure of every facet of a person's being to foster an emotional, spiritual, and physical connectivity that surpasses all other voluntary interpersonal relationships. Marriage is the most powerful and lasting relationship we make in this life: although all friendships are in some degrees eternal, marriage is ETERNAL. It is essential to one's spiritual progress, both in this life and in the life to come. Not surprisingly, it is both the most demanding and most rewarding of all relationships immediately affecting most Young Single Adults. Purpose: To experience the most rewarding relationship of all. Particularly, the marriage relationship is the only relationship that sexual expression and relationships can be safely experienced, and is the only relationship that can healthily create another person through parenthood. Finally, celestial marriage is vital to eternal progression. NOTE: I don't know much about parenthood, so I'm not covering that here (plus, there's not any point, as this topic is about relationships we can choose: you can't choose who your child will be). ------------------------------------------------------ So, now that we've set the guidelines out for what the different relationships entail (feel free to comment/disagree if you feel something is lacking), we can move forward to discuss what we each desire to get out of the different relationships. Personally, I don't feel the need for more friends. I doubt many people visiting this forum do- I'm going out on a limb and saying that most of us are currently in/looking for a dating relationship and would love to be engaged or married. The following is a summary of my sister's account of the dating atmosphere of the area I live in: 'In the area I live there's a dearth of young men to take young women out on dates. There's simply not enough to go around, and the men we do have are usually not as spiritually minded as the women around here would like. The guys aren't bad, but their focus is more on school or sports than on getting married. Any guys who are spiritually mature and ready to get married get snatched pretty quickly.' Personally, I agree with her mostly. I've heard this sentiment echoed by young women across the country, and I believe the prophets' imposition to men to 'be worthy of the priesthood' has something to do with that. It's late and I have to go do homework; I want to leave the floor open for discussion and reflection.

Because I am one in a billion. And when I get all my emotional problems sorted out, there won't be a woman alive who could resist my old-fashioned, debonair persona.

QFT.I thought of it this way: both separates one from God's church after having allying oneself with it for a time. Both are devastating and, if the spiritual causes for the excommunication/name withdrawal are not fixed, will result in one's eternal damnation in the hereafter. However, I've seen and heard multiple accounts where someone excommunicated was re-baptized; same thing for someone who had their name withdrawn.

I can feel the vibes of good intentions emanating from your post, but I just don't agree with it. I've never believed that a 'true Christian' is one who retains belief, while on this earthly state, in the correct metaphysical system of beliefs we call religion. If I understand the spirit of what you're saying to be correct, I somewhat agree with your simple definition of a Christian as 'someone who worships Jesus as the eternal God'. However, judging by your preceding example of the Arian Controversy, I fear you may be putting more into those words than I am reading. For example: what does it mean to be eternal? I believe I know your definition- never having a beginning or end. However, the ancient Hebrews believed time to exist in certain periods, and that the scriptural 'eternity' did in fact have a beginning and end, although humans could not measure it. That is to say, there was a time before the scriptural eternity, and there will be a time after the scriptural eternity. My problem with your definition is that, for its rigidness, it is far too simplistic. If you want to start laying down the exact definitions of Christianity so that it precludes all heresies, you would have to write something akin to the ancient Creeds. Another point: if one can use Biblical language incorrectly and not qualify as Christian, what hope do they have who never have read the Bible before, yet still are touched by the Light of Christ and are moved to do good to their fellow man 'all their days'? Obviously they are not Christian in that they are not familiar with the doctrine of Jesus Christ, but they can still live by the spirit of Christ- and the spirit of Christ proves the salvation of mankind. Are these poor souls, then, doomed to a status of non-Christianity based on their metaphysical beliefs? On the same token, will a man who believes in the correct religious beliefs of Christ, yet who is degenerate, a liar and adulterer, be called by the name of Christ? Surely not, for he disregards the spirit in favor for the philosophy, which he then fails to live by. Finally, what is the import of being called a Christian? Different uses of the word denote different meanings: if you want to separate people based on religions, than a Christian is generally anyone who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is divine, was God incarnate, and will save His people. If you want to throw around words and exclude others from your exclusive club, then you can call a Christian anyone who prescribes solely to your own list of doctrines. Finally, if you want to separate people based on whether they are actually living the kind of life that Christ died to teach us, are making use of the atonement that He preformed while on this earth, and who will actually be saved in the Kingdom of Heaven... then, you can't. Such things are known only to God and sometimes to the person themselves.

Interesting. Thank you for the links, Pam and LittleWyvern. It boils down to if Mr. Lynn really is the best candidate for Deputy Secretary of Defense. From the articles LittleWyvern posted: Hopefully, this is a sheer coincidence and there won't be too many waivers like this.

Onetimequestion- I frankly do not understand your behavior in your posts. You begin by asking for help because you think you may be possessed by an evil spirit, then switch gears and turn it into an article about how the members of the Church don't understand Grace. I can understand the severe spiritual trauma you are experiencing right now, but realize that you are in great spiritual danger right now because of your own past iniquities. It's simply not fair or justified to start judging the rest of the Church for a perceived lack of trust in grace, when you yourself are just now beginning to understand it (forgive me if you have understood it for a while, but your posts have made it clear that you are judging your understanding of grace largely on an experience barely half a week old). To put it more bluntly, 'take the plank from your own eye before removing the splinter from your brother's'. I say this as a caution: believe me, if you sidetrack your progress towards spiritual health with judgments of others, you'll end off worse than you were to begin with.

The 17 Points of the True Church are meant to be viewed with an LDS viewpoint and with understanding of LDS-specific doctrine found in the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and other revelations of the Restoration. We see the verses that the points reference not as the source for understanding the doctrines, but merely as examples supporting them. That is to say, the doctrine in point 16 (practicing baptism for the dead) does not stem from 1 Corinthians 15:16 & 29, but is merely referenced there. The doctrine itself stems from numerous revelations given to the Prophet Joseph Smith and subsequent prophets, some recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants. It's unfair to look at the 17 points as a definitive case for the validity of Mormonism or its doctrines; it is not unfair to look at them as a supporting argument. To assume that the 17 Points represents comprehensive LDS theology is to do our religion disservice. The 17 Points, if they are indeed accurate, point to the Mormon church as being the true Church of Christ. If that is the case, then the true Church receives revelation anew in each dispensation, and each dispensation receives special revelation meant to help the people understand the will of God. If that is the case, then this new revelation would build upon previous revelation and help clarify it and clear away the confusion that time, cultural differences, and apostasy has wrought. If that is the case, than all previous scripture must be viewed in light of new scripture for either to be truly inspired by God. If that is the case, than any doctrine understood (by prophets) through this synthesis of ancient and modern scripture would supersede doctrine gleaned from only one source or the other, whether the one who gleaned said doctrine was a prophet or not. If that is the case then it would be difficult, if not impossible, for a Mormon and a member of any other Christian faith to agree on finer points of doctrine in most cases (no matter how spiritually 'in tune' both are, and no matter how much they are striving to find unity in their understanding). We see a prime example in August's point about paid ministry. Based on the records we have, it is difficult to definitively prove one way or the other if the first Christian ministers were paid or not, as we do find examples of both in the New Testament (there are passages that seem to condone paid ministry, as well as passages that seem to condemn it). It is easy enough for anyone in good standing before God to come to either conclusion, if they only had the information that the Bible and history makes available to us. What's the point of all this? I refer you now to skalenfehl's most recent post, which beautifully summarizes the real import and proper use of the 17 Points.

The prophets of God have always pointed to the signs of the times to signify the days of the second coming. I believe the Lord when he says 'no man knows the day', but I believe past prophets (and maybe current prophets) have had a relative time frame revealed to them (i.e., within 10-15 years). I doubt any prophet, no matter how great, has ever been able to sit down and tell you an exact date. Don't quote me on this, as I don't remember the source, but I've heard it said that Jesus Himself won't know the exact time until it's time for Him to actually come in His power and glory, and that such is known only to the Father. As for the churches that believed he would come at the turn of the millenium... The members of those churches suffered the bitter disillusionment that comes from finding your religious faith was misplaced. I feel for them, and hope they've recovered fully- such an experience is traumatic.

Moksha wasn't agreeing with you. It doesn't matter though- you have a point in that female ministers are, in actuality, not biblical. Moksha was pointing to the apparent strides in social equality that having a female minster give the prayer hints at, while you were remarking on the strict biblical inaccuracy of a female minister. I think it should be left at that.Anyway, I am excited to learn that there were official LDS representatives at the inauguration! I never thought about it, but it would make sense to have some there. Knowing the extremely hectic travel schedule of the General Authorities, I doubt it had anything to do with anyone's health. At least, I hope it had nothing to do with anyone's health... While the inauguration is an important political event, the GA's are called to reside over the Church. The three great missions of the Church (proclaiming the Gospel, perfecting the saints, performing works for the dead) don't include political agendas, so the GA's normal travel and work schedules would trump attendance at the inauguration. Elders Uchtdorf and Ballard may have been the only ones available.

Onetimequestion- First, let me encourage you to continue the path you have embarked on. Cleansing oneself of such spiritual sickness is one of the hardest things a human being can do, but it is possible, with enough faith. First of all, I would like to point out one thing. You may have been (or still be) partially possessed by an evil spirit, but you are also dealing with the natural effects that satanism has on the spirit. That is to say, you exposed yourself so completely to evil influences that your spirit was warped and twisted; now that you seek to repent and return to God's graces, you are dealing with the effects of said warping. Think of it this way: if a man inflicts extreme physical trauma on himself (self-mutilation) for an extended period of time, his bones may break, his flesh may scar and burn, and his health will plummet. Now, suppose that man wants to stop his self-mutilation and live a healthy life. For a time, he has to deal with those broken bones, that scarred flesh, and his lowered health. He will have to deal with that until his body heals itself through its own natural courses. However, that man may do things to help his body along the healing process: eating correctly, exercising (inasmuch as he is able), and filling his time and mind with positive things. Now, take that example and turn it around. You are dealing with the damaged psyche, the lowered self-esteem, and the twisted spirit of a former satanist (whether you were one or not, it seems the amount of influences you exposed yourself to was adequate to harm yourself enough). Expect your journey towards recovery to be, for a while, an uphill struggle. I join the chorus of voices to encourage you to get Priesthood blessings, but I also want to point out that you may not need to have an unclean spirit cast out of you just yet. Your main struggle will be overcoming the evil habits you formed, and when you try to break away from them it feels like you are fighting against another spirit. You are, in fact- you are fighting against your own carnal man, which you have fed for a long time and is now quite vicious and strong. In addition to Priesthood blessings, feed your spiritual and physical body healthy food! Make prayer and scripture study a regular part of your life; go to church and all your meetings; fast and pay tithing; go to the Lord with your fears and frailties. He will help you become strong through His infinite grace. Also, keep yourself physically healthy and active: the physical and spiritual bodies are inseparably connected, and keeping your physical body healthy will help your spirit. You have asked one of the most profound questions mankind can ever ask: are we saved by our own merits, or God's graces? The answer is unashamedly and undoubtedly that we are saved through the grace of God. That grace was enacted in the form of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, through which He suffered for every individual sin ever committed by us, his beloved children. It is through the atonement that we are saved, and no man can ever, by relying on his own strength and merit, attain salvation. In the church, we talk about 'working out our own salvation'. We believe that we are saved through the Atonement of Christ, after all we can do. One can interpret that verse many ways, but one clear explanation is this: We are saved by the Atonement of Christ after all we can do to make use of it. That means, we must enter the gate to the Kingdom of God in the way that He has prescribed for us (baptism), must receive the endowments and ordinances that He has set forth for us in His holy temples, and must endure to the end of our lives in following Christ. We are not saved by our own good works, but our good works are the natural manifestations of true faith in Christ. A lack of good works towards our fellow man betrays a lack of faith in Christ, and no man can be saved who does not have as strong a fight in Christ as he can. 2 Nephi, Chapter 31, helps explain this. Truly good works plus belief in Christ equals real faith, and the nurturing of real faith in our own souls is what leads to eternal life.

Best Testimony Meeting Horror Story I've ever heard:A member of our ward was serving his mission in New Zealand when this happened. During Fast and Testimony meeting, a middle-aged gentleman got up to the pulpit, cleared his throat, and started with: "I have a confession to make." The congregation murmured for a second, then grew deathly quiet in worried anticipation. The man continued, "I... committed adultery." The congregation gasps. "With HER!" At this time the gentleman points to the bishop's wife, seated in the front row. The congregation, not quite knowing how to react, was a mixture of shocked disbelief and awed silence. The man finished his confession: "In my mind!" It took the congregation 5 minutes to settle down.