mikbone

Del Parson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I'm sure you are aware of the urban legend portion in the above link. You can find the picture in a few books in my home but it is not framed or hung on a wall. I do like it though. When I was like 14 years old my mother gave me the book Man of Steel and Velvet: A Guide to Masculine Development ~ Aubrey Andelin. This book had a profound effect on my life and development. In this book Mr. Andelin basically states that a real man knows when to be hard and decisive, yet when to be yielding and supportive. This picture best displays these concepts in my mind. He looks like an approachable loving father, but in no way would I want to stand toe to toe with this man in a boxing ring.

Yeah, to tell you the truth I have not made a judgement as to what is an intelligence. There have been good arguments made supporting both the existence of an intelligence as an entity prior to being re-organized into a spirit, and conversely that intelligence is just another word for spirit. McConkie's entry on Intelligence makes reference to only one scripture Abraham 3: 22-24 which I read quite plainly as intelligence = spirit. And a quote of Joseph Smith found in Teachings p. 354 which does not adequately define intelligence whatsoever. The first record that we have in the Church of intelligence as an entity is: B. H. Roberts, "The Immortality of Man" I like the idea of an intelligence as an entity that predated a spirit. But I dont think that it is LDS Doctrine. We just don't know. And would it matter if we did? Heck I don't really know what a spirit is... Heckfire, I'm a surgeon and I think that i have just scratched the surface as to what is a human body... Its kinda like looking at an atom of an element and saying well I want to know what makes up the components of atoms. Mabey they are strings that vibrate and different harmonies in 12 or 13 dimentions of space... But if there are spirits of men and spirits of beasts. There had to be a reason why some were made as men and others as beasts. Maybe our intelligences were more advanced thus we became spirits of men. Where other intelligences did not want to progres as far thus settled to become spirits of beasts. Makes you wonder...

Yeah its distracting to say to least. Thats why I added the list of McConkie's defination of Angels, it goes through all types of souls that I can think of. D&C 88:15 does say that the spirit and the body are the soul of man. Thus if you are a Man your soul consists of a spirit + body. Satan's soul is just his spirit. Elohim's soul is the combination of his spirit + immortal body. I think of the Soul as the essence of the person. When my spirit entered my body it must have had an effect upon the essence of what is me thus my soul changed. And hopefully in the future if I play my cards right I will get the chance to become a Celestial being. That perfect body will also have an effect upon my spirit which will make me different I would assume. Just thinking outloud.

Primary Sources - For LDS members the word scripture not only refers to the 4 Standard works of the Church it can also be described as "whatsoever [God's representatives] shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost (D&C 68:2-4, 2 Tim. 3:16). Therefore, anyone who is moved upon by the Holy Ghost while speaking in General Conference and recorded for later reading in the Ensign, including the First Presidency messages, are considered scripture, although they would not be included as part of the Standard works of the Church. "In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us. Their words come to us through conferences, Church publications, and instructions to local priesthood leaders." Gospel Principles Chapter 12 The Hymnal and Temple Endowment is also considered Scripture. The King Follett Discourse BTW was given during a General Conference... Secondary Sources - Comentary or Books on doctrinal topics written by General Authorities. E.g. Mormon Doctrine. Teritary Sources - Comentary or Books written by LDS Scholars. E. g. Alonzo L. Gaskill, 'The Savior and The Serpent', Salt Lake City 2005 Quaternary Sources - Drivel written by guys like myself in websites. When someone says or writes anything like... I think to myself - DANGER! DANGER!

McConkie did a nice job in Mormon Doctrine 1) Spirit beings are souls. The 2 terms are synonymous. Pre mortal souls Abraham 3:23 and Disembodids souls Alma 40:11-15. 2) A mortal soul consists of a body and spirit united in a temporary or mortal union. Abraham 5:7 3) An immortal soul is a resurrected personage. D&C 88:15-16, Alma 40:23 I also like his defination of types of Angels 1) Pre-existent Spirits, Revelations 12:7, Moses 5:6-8 2) Translated Beings, 3 Ne 28:30, D&C 7; 27:12-13 3) Spirits of Just Men Made Perfect, D&C 76:66-69, Heb 12: 22-24, D&C 129. Spirits of men who have worked out their salvation, but are awaiting the day of the resurrection. 4) Resurrected Personages, Matthew 27:52-53, many other scriptures. Angles with bodies of flesh and bone. 5) Righteous Mortal Men, Genesis 19 (The two angles that rescued Lot from Sodom). Inspired version of Genesis 19 is a better source though.

The Wentworth letter was a letter written in 1842 by Joseph Smith, Jr. to "Long" John Wentworth, editor and proprietor of the Chicago Democrat. It outlined the history of the Latter Day Saint movement up to that time, and included the declaration which eventually bacame the Articles of Faith. The letter was written in response to Wentworth's inquiry on behalf of one of his friends who was writing a history of New Hampshire. The letter was first published on March 1, 1842 in the Times and Seasons in Nauvoo, Illinois. These Articles of Faith were not produced by the labored efforts and harmonized contentions of scholastics, but were struck off by one inspired mind at a single effort to make a declaration of that which is most assuredly believed by the church, for one making earnest inquiry about the truth. The combined directness, perspicuity, simplicity and comprehensiveness of this statement of the principles of our religion may be relied upon as strong evidence of a divine inspiration resting upon the Prophet, Joseph Smith.” B. H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church, Vol.2, Ch.47, p.131 The Wentworth Letter - Wikisource The New Hampshire Baptist Confession (1833)

............................................________ ....................................,.-'"...................``~., .............................,.-"..................................."-., .........................,/...............................................":, .....................,?......................................................, .................../...........................................................,} ................./......................................................,:`^`..} .............../...................................................,:"........./ ..............?.....__.........................................:`.........../ ............./__.(....."~-,_..............................,:`........../ .........../(_...."~,_........"~,_....................,:`........_/ ..........{.._$;_......"=,_......."-,_.......,.-~-,},.~";/....} ...........((.....*~_......."=-._......";,,./`..../"............../ ...,,,___.`~,......"~.,....................`.....}............../ ............(....`=-,,.......`........................(......;_,,-" ............/.`~,......`-...................................../ .............`~.*-,.....................................|,./.....,__ ,,_..........}.>-._...................................|..............`=~-, .....`=~-,__......`,................................. ...................`=~-,,.,............................... ................................`:,,...........................`..............__ .....................................`=-,...................,%`>--==`` ........................................_..........._,-%.......` ..................................., I have been struggling as to how to properly respond to the last few posts. And I guess that there is a time when someone would want to use a secondary or tertiary source instead of a primary source. That would occur when the reader has absolutely no understanding of the nature of prophecy, revelation, symbolism, or personal inspiration. Joseph Smith History 11 & 12 While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible. I have received many answers to questions, conformations and life changing revelations from reading the scriptures and temple sessions. Curiously I cannot recollect a time when I have been similarly inspired by commentary. Secondary sources are a nice adjunct but it simply can not substitute for the rich depth of information that is found within scripture.

I use the scriptures and temple narrative as my Gold standard. Are you trying to convince me that I am incorrect?

It is one of my favorite quotes. It demonstrates the profound difference that there is between the spiritual progression between us and God. And even more importantly. I think that both Abraham and B.H. Roberts were commenting on the intelligence of Jehovah not Elohim.

Adam was taught the Gospel in the cold and dreary world not in the Garden. Why didn't Adam question God? Maybe he did. But then again. Assume that you had a perfect father that knew everything and had the capacity to read your mind and anticipate your questions. A father that you could completely trust because He had never let you down and never ever did anything that was not perfect. In that circumstance I would probably live on blind faith. Why would I question him? Our pre-mortal existance memories are tied to the Veil. If you have been through a temple endowment ceremony, you have seen a representation of the Veil. The memory wipe occurs when a person passes through the Veil. It does not have anything having to do with receiving a body. Likewise you can only regain your pre-mortal memories by re-entering the Veil. Thus only our brethern that enter the Celestial Kingdom will be re-acquainted with those memories... Although at least a few men have had the privledge to part the Veil during mortality, please see Ether 3:13-21. It is important that we each learn for ourselves why the plan works, for its own sake.

He and We knew Jehovah and honored him for who he was and what he did. He was very special... Abraham 3:24 "and there was one like unto God". Jehovah was an easy leader to follow. He was full of knowledge and understanding. He had insight that we did not, and He had our best intrests in mind and heart. He loved us dearly. And was willing to sacrifice all for us. But to answer your question, did Adam understand Jehovah's role in the plan? I know that Jehovah himself did not fully understand his role. And that became painfully obvious during Gethesamane. Matthew 26: 39, 42, 44 Matthew 27: 46 D&C 19: 15-19 LDS.org - New Era Article - Do We Know How Much He Went Through? I praise God that Jesus Christ had the strength, will, and most importantly the love that He was willing to do what was nesessary to give us the opportunity to learn, progress, and ultimately return to God. No problem, I have better organized my thoughts by defending my beliefs. Thank you. I've been listening to some great music and feeling the spirit quite strongly during the study.

Sorry, I ment pre-mortal existence memories. Pre-mortal existence refering to the location where we all previously resided as spirits in Gods presence. Thus Adam and Eve had no recollection of their pre-Earth existence when they were in the Garden of Eden because they had previously passed through the Veil. I don't want to go into my technical beliefs as to how the Birth of Adam actually occurred in the Garden, although I have previously posted it on other threads at this site. But basically I believe that Adam and Eve were both physically born as babies to Heavenly Parents. That their spirits had passed through the veil before being integrated into the new tabernacles of flesh and because of this, the newborn children Adam and Eve were ignorant. But with ultimate capacity and intelligence for learning and progress.

I guess I disagree with the premise of this entire thread. The original quoted document is not doctrine. It is a conglomeration of quotes trying to put forth an incorrect concept Adam and Eve passed through the veil prior to coming to Earth and being set in the Garden of Eden. I do not believe that their pre-mortal memories were intact. I believe that they were born by Heavenly Parents just like everyone else that has been born on this Earth. They were just like my children, intelligent but without knowledge or information. Their brains were empty vessels ready to be filled. Perhaps their situation was singularly different because for some reason they were not yet able to perceive the light of Christ - and for this cause they could not distinguish between good and evil. But although they did not perceive the light of christ they had the companionship of Jehovah during their stay in Eden. They no doubt grew from childhood to adulthood during their stay in Eden. I believe that they were reared by Heavenly Parents whom educated them. For example they were taught how to tend a garden, build a structure, mine and work metals, general nutrition, medicine, reading and writing, music and the arts, and most importantly comandments and spiritual instruction. Essentially God prepared them fully for the fall that He knew would eventually occur. And even after the fall, He continued to instruct them. The verse (Moses 4:27 Unto Adam, and also unto his wife, did I, the Lord God, make coats of skins, and clothed them.) is a short statement that has lots of meaning. Prior to the fall nothing could die, but the fall changed this. All of creation became mortal. God taught Adam how to hunt. He instructed Adam on how to not only skin the animal, tan and prepare the leather, but He no doubt taught him how to slaughter the animal, cook the flesh, consume the meat, and preserve the remainder of the raw materials, etc. Imagine how this must have left an impression on Adam... Adam had befriended and named this animal while in the Garden. And he knew that his decision and actions had caused the change that required him to slaughter his friends so he could provide for his family. There is no evidence that any of Adam and Eve's memories were wiped by partaking of the fruit. I guess you could argue that when they were finally kicked out the Garden that there was a partition that was placed between God and them that prevented them from having direct contact with God but this partition did not erase any of their memories. I'll restate it again. Adam and Eve were veiled prior to being born on Earth in the Garden of Eden. They were taught by the best of instructors while in the Garden, their parents, our parents. But they learned the Gospel during their trial of mortality. 1) Adam was taught the meaning of why he was commanded to offer sacrifice only after he had left the Garden. Moses 5:6-10 2) Adam was baptised after the fall. Moses 6:51-67 Adam finally learns that there is a way for him to be forgiven for his transgressions through baptism and by the Only Begotten even Jesus Christ. This is where Adam is taught the full meaning of the Gospel. 3) Adam was further taught the Gospel and even "an holy ordinance" once again after the fall, Moses 5:59. This holy ordinance I believe is what we now know as the holy endowment.

No I disagree with your assumptions. Being cast out of God's presence for a temporary mortal probation is a great blessing. Adam and Eve were taught the gospel while in the Garden of Eden but they learned the Gospel during mortality.

You may recall that Adam refused to partake of the fruit innitially. Adam was obedient. He was determined to obey God. Eve on the other hand was willing to disobey Father in order to have children. Only when Adam was confronted with the possibility of letting Eve be cast out of the Garden alone, compounded by the fact that he was commanded to multiply and replenish the Earth was he willing to partake. You are misrepresenting my statements. I wrote that Adam did not understand the severe consequences that would occur because of the fall. He obviously knew that there was at least one consequence though... Moses 3: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. And even though he was informed of this consequence. He didn't understand what death was exactly. Death did not exist within the Garden of Eden. I disagree with your premise. Adam and Eve passed through the veil prior to their birth in the Garden. Thus they forgot their pre-mortal memories before they were born. But because they were innocent within the Garden they were able to abide in the presence of God. They did not understand the difference between Good and Evil prior to partaking the fruit. Their knowledge of the Gospel did not change significantly after they partook of the fruit. They just were then able to distinguish between good and evil. Perhaps they were able to better percieve the Light of Christ after the Fall. Obviously Adam was taught about the Gospel while he was in the Garden but there were many points of doctrine that he just did not understand. Please see Moses 5: 6-10. These verses clearly (in my mind, at least) demonstrate that Adam did not understand the significance of sacrifice and the Atonement, prior to being taught this lesson by the Angel of the Lord. Yes we all understood the plan and made a decision to follow the plan in the pre-mortal existence. But when we passed through the veil these concepts were erased from our memories. One only learn of the plan of salvation through missionary work and revelation by the Holy Ghost during this life.

Instructions delivered sometime in July 1839 Source: Willard Richards Pocket Companion (probably copied in part from notes of John Taylor) Adam is Michael The Priesthood was first given to Adam: he obtained the first Presidency & held the Keys of it, from generation to Generation; he obtained it in the creation before the world was formed as in Gen. 1, 26:28,--he had dominion given him over every living Creature. He is Michael, the Archangel, spoken of in the Scriptures,-- Noah is Gabriel Then to Noah who is Gabriel, he stands next in authority to Adam in the Priesthood; he was called of God to this office & was the Father of all living in his day, & To him was given the Dominion. These men held keys, first on earth, & then in Heaven.-- The Priesthood is an everlasting principle & Existed with God from Eternity & will to Eternity, without beginning of days or end of years. the Keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent.-- When they are revealed from Heaven it is by Adams Authority.

Luke 1: 26-27

Ok. I'm just putting forth my guess that I think Justice sees a connection between 3 Ne 17 and the the war in heaven. Im not saying that I see the connection that clearly...

Sure, could have been. Could have been Moses, or Abraham, or Heavenly Mother, or <insert name here>. I can think of a specific reason why Michael would be significant though.

That would be the one. Yes.

Modern physics confirms this. After the big bang the only elements were Hydrogen and Helium. Gas clouds condensed until stars were generated and these stars through fusion created heaver elements. But the only way that elements higher on the periodic chart than Iron can be formed is from the event of a supernova. Thus our solar system was formed from the remnants of previously recycled stars. But to take the stance that the fossil record on the Earth came from other planets doesn't make any sense to me. Then again fossils of neanderthal in no way prove that pre-adamites had any function with the creation of Adam and Eve.

I think you miss-understand me. I believe that the personality comes from the spirit. I never claimed to know the mind of Adam... And Im not trying to win an argument... I do love Adam though. I think that he was the most selfless man that lived. I believe that he partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil because he did not want Eve to suffer being alone. Essentially he was willing to die just so Eve would have companionship. I do not think that he partook of the fruit knowing that he was going to condemn Jehovah to bleed from every pore. And based upon Ether 3: 13-15. I believe that no one prior to Mahonri made the connection that God (Jehovah) was the person who would actually perform the atonement. I also believe that the angel mentioned in Luke 22:43 was Michael.

Job 38:7 ?

From personal experience, 9 kids. They come with their personalities intact. From scripture: Cain Moses 5:24 For from this time forth thou shalt be the father of his lies; thou shalt be called Perdition; for thou wast also before the world. Abraham 3: 23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born. As to the comment of Phineus Gage, He was lobotomized by that iron rod that was rammed through his head. Im no neurologist but I do have a medical background. Phineus' real personality was displayed before the accident. After the accident his body / brain was damaged. His spirit was not changed but the brain was diseased and it interfered with his true personality. Finally, Adam knew that there would be consequences to the fall. But he had no idea that Jehovah (whom I believe he came to know and love during his time in the garden), was going to have to pass through the events of Gethsemane.

The Veil I think that the idea of the veil as it has been used in this thread varies from user to user so much that confusion has resulted. It has anyway for myself. When I think of the veil I think of an actual physical barrier / ordinance that one passes through. 1) When we leave the pre-mortal existence we pass through this barrier and lose our memories (but curiously not our personalities) 2) When someone has their calling and election made sure they actually enter the veil and are re-acquainted with their pre-mortal memories. See Ether 3: 13-15. 3) One can be temporarily pulled through the veil and then re-veiled. 4) A person can see God and not have been brought through the Veil. For example Cain, 14 year old Joseph Smith. 5) Only those persons that enter the Veil will receive their pre-mortal memories, thus anyone that does not attain the Celestial Kingdom will not be privy to their pre-mortal memories. Adam & Eve were obviously Veiled. They did not possess their pre-mortal memories while they were in Eden. Yet they were sinless and thus were still able to abide in God's presence. When they transgressed and fell they were then separated from God. They were exposed to God for I assume many years prior to the fall and they must have been extremely intelligent and taught by the best teacher of all time. They were obviously taught about the Gospel. But I believe that Adam had no idea that by partaking of the forbidden fruit that he was condemning Jehovah to the Atonement.