mikbone

John 5:19 Matthew 5:48 Romans 8:17 Revelations 3:21 Thats a good start. If your serious in your questions, I'd be more than happy to recite a multitude more.

Thank you for the post I may be incorrect but your statements appear to stem from 2 different concepts. 1) Joseph Smith's discourses dealing with the Saviors on Mount Zion January 21, 1844 May 12, 1844 2) Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, Atonement of Christ. “When the prophets speak of an infinite atonement, they mean just that. Its effects cover all men, the earth itself and all forms of life thereon, and reach out into the endless expanses of eternity. … the atonement of Christ, being literally and truly infinite, applies to an infinite number of earths.” Does your concept fit into #4 in the original post or is it a variation?

Good point, you do have a valid alternate explanation there. For the sake of sanity though I will choose to ignore the Adam - God Theory LDS.org - Ensign Article - Our Own Liahona Another matter. We hope that you who teach in the various organizations, whether on the campuses or in our chapels, will always teach the orthodox truth. We warn you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such, for instance, is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine. I also like Bruce R. McConkie's statement "anyone who has read the Book of Moses, and anyone who has received the temple endowment and who yet believes the Adam-God theory does not deserve to be saved." BYU Devotional, June 1, 1980. This is what McConkie said in the audio recording of this sermon. The print version has subsequently been changed to "has no excuse whatever for being led astray by it." Compare PDF text with MP3 audio at 26:48 :)

To fulfill prophecy? Nice throwdown! And well done. I'll grant you that it is not plainly found within the quad. But I will honor official declarations and hymns as scripture. The Family: A Proclamation to the World "All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. Hymn 292 In the heav’ns are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare! Truth is reason; truth eternal Tells me I’ve a mother there. When I leave this frail existence, When I lay this mortal by, Father, Mother, may I meet you In your royal courts on high? LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Origin of Man, By the First Presidency of the Church, Nov 1909 “God created man in His own image.” This is just as true of the spirit as it is of the body, which is only the clothing of the spirit, its complement—the two together constituting the soul. The spirit of man is in the form of man, and the spirits of all creatures are in the likeness of their bodies. This was plainly taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith (see D&C 77:2). Adam was the son of God. Yes the JST "...who was formed of God, and the first man upon the earth" is irritating. You know full and well that I detest the idea that Adam was formed/created as opposed to born.

One vote for #1 by captmoroniRM Thanks Wingnut, I've been going through the list and already found one applicable post, by Vanhin I think that this view is becoming more popular. I don't personally like it, but it does have some internal validity. Ill try to condense it and give it a listing of its own There are 2 great documents that do support a infinite regression of Gods though. One is the Joseph Smith June 16, 1844 Sermon in the Grove discourse as recorded in the Thomas Bullock Report. The other is hymn 284 If You Could Hie to Kolob. There are many others. But these are both plain and precious in my mind.

Lorenzo Snow's famous couplet, "As man is God once was, as God is man may be." Has intrigued me during my entire life. I believe in it Completely. Essentially I believe that it better represents Morminism than any other sentence. It answers all the big questions. Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where are we going? During my spiritual education I have spent more time studying and pondering this statement than any other principle in the gospel. And I have learned much. No doubt many would say that I have completly fallen off the straight and narrow path. But I think not, it has strengthened my testimony and given me great peace of mind. I know who I am. Here is the issue. There seems to be so much variation in the beliefs as to what the second half of Lorenzo Snow's statement actually means... I wanted to make a poll but I realized that I have no idea what many people's intrepertation of the couplet actually is. So I'm gonna give it a go and ask for alternate explanations. Ill start with the most common. 1) It dosen't matter. Keep to the basics: Faith, Repentance, Baptism & Gift of the Holy Ghost. Although this is no doubt the most common explanation, I find it unsatisfactory. 2) We can become exactly as Heavenly Father is Now (although we can never catch Him in glory because He is forever progressing as well). Essentially that we will eventually be able to create children spiritually. And our spiritual firstborn will serve as our savior to all our spiritual offspring. We will create spiritual worlds/universe which our spiritual firstborn will physically create and save. Of all the reasonable ideas that I have studied this concept is probably the most commonly accepted. It does have a major flaw though. Primarily that of John 5:19, and 3 Ne 27: 21. Joseph Smith expounded on John 5:19 within the King Follett Discourse and essentially stated that Elohim himself was a savior and that Jehovah is following the example that Elohim gave. This presents a huge problem. If Jehovah could only do that which His Father did than How can we expect our spiritual firstborn to follow an example which we ourselves were not able to provide. Will our "firstborn" have to leapfrog us and look upon Jehovah for an acceptable example??? 3) The previous flaw gives rise to a third option. That we will be gods but not GODS. Savior GODS are a special lot of royal Firstborns. We will assist in the work to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. But not like Elohim and Jehovah. This explanation works but it makes Lorenzo Snow's Couplet null and void. 4) There is no eternal regression or progression of Gods. God the Father, Elohim is the Most High God and forever will be. Jehovah/Christ is the Savior. We will become Kings and Priests and will be able to assist our father but our roles have not exactly been defined.

I like the way you are thinking. I don't agree with it, but I like when people open their minds and have questions... I wish that we understood more about the Holy Ghost and his role. I also wish that we had much more doctrine concerning Heavenly Mother... I feel confident that it was the Father that introduced Christ during the baptism. Althought I suspect that Heavenly Mother was present. We could have a whole different thread about spiritually begotten though... This is how I see it. 1) My spirit was begotten by Heavenly Mother and Heavenly Father. *Fact* The following are suppositions/questions that I have. a) was everyone in our pre-mortal existence spiritually begotten of the same heavenly mother? Polygamy and all... I'm leaning to the idea that there was only one heavenly mother that was in our pre-mortal existence but that Father may have had other groups of spiritual children with other heavenly mothers, in other spheres. b) I also think that Jehoavh may not have been a spiritual child of Elohim, that the sire of Jehovah's spirit may have been what we could consider as Heavenly Grandfather. 2) My body was begotten by my earthly parents *Fact* The following are suppositions/questions that I have. a) Now you could easily argue that my earthly parents were Adam & Eve b) Building on the last statement you could just as easily argue that my earthly parents were the personages that created Adam and Eve. c) I am unsure who created Adam and Eve it could have been Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. But I think that more likely it was Jehovah and his spouse. 3) At Baptism/Conversion/Everlasting Covenant Sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise we are spiritually begotten of Christ. Mosiah 5:7, D&C 93:22 The following are suppositions/questions that I have. a) This spiritual rebirth trumps the spiritual birth of Elohim, in effect we become Children of Christ. b) Through this spiritual rebirth we become a member of the church of the Firstborn D&C 93:22. Essentially we become a "firstborn of Christ". c) This same relationship that we have with Jehovah/Christ. Is the exact relationship that Jehovah has with Elohim.

I believe you are correct. Especially since some of the "mysteries of heaven" are found within the temple endowment ceremony...

LDS Scriptures Library is very well put together I don't mind paying $15 for the program but I am unwilling to pay for it twice to have the ipad and iphone version... I just have the iphone version. My LDS stake is pretty nice too. But it is $5. It has an updated ward list, and you can link to the map function easily to find members homes. I have used it a few times to help me recall a members name while in meetings. Pretty slick. Mormon Channel is a must have. I use it to listen to prior talks, music while traveling in the car. It is updated periodically and FREE I also use FStream to listen to the KSL feed. Very useful if you want to follow the BYU Cougars and the game is not available in your area.

Bible Dictionary: Dove, Sign of The idea that the Holy Ghost can appear as a bird (dove) is a misconception. Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: D&C 93:15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son. If you look at the Facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 2, Figure 7 you can see what the Sign of the Dove actually is... Link to Facsimile No. 2 You have to turn the facsimile upside down to see it properly but you see a seated man (GOD) revealing the sign of the dove to Abraham. Take notice of the seated man's arm positioning. This is the sign of the dove. When the Holy Ghost descended out of the heaven and witnessed the baptism of Jesus Christ, he was holding his personage of spirit in this position. He was not a dove. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 276 "The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence." Of curious note, the officiator of a true baptism holds his body in a similar position...

I keep my LDS history, doctrine books, and buy em all in Hard back. For the entertainment books, I have started using kindle and ibooks and I love the electronic format!

You been on vacation Justice? Haven't seen you post in a few days. My belief that the Tree of KoG&E can change immortal bodies to mortals is really insignificant in the whole scheme of things. Yeah, Ive been running down that path for quite some time now. I disagree. I'm not even sure the Fall was a sin. Adam and Eve were forbidden to partake of the Tree of KoG&E but you and I both know that is was a necessary step for our progression. I'm sure everyone in the pre-mortal existence cheered with joy when Adam and Eve Fell. Job 38:7 Yeah this is the best argument for it being ok to drink alcohol and smoke dope. I don't see it applying to the fall though... I disagree. Adam had to make a conscious decision and then act on that decision in order to enter into mortality against God's recommendation. That way no one could complain that it was unfair that we had to come to Earth and be tested. Cleon Skousen gives an excellent explantation of this in his book The First 2,000 years. Yes it could have been any other item (Blue Pill or Red Pill as in the Matrix movie) that was used as the physical representation of Adam's choice of free will. But I'll stick with the scriptures. Yes Adam and Eve could have changed from immortals to mortals via another miracle and the Fruit of the ToKoG&E could have just been a symbolic representation. I choose to believe that the Tree does have an active ingredient that causes a physical change to immortal bodies. I also believe that the Tree of Life exists. You don't have to though. My beliefs do not require that you believe them. The scriptures also clearly state that Adam was changed because He partook of the Fruit and that the animals and the rest of the Garden were changed or cursed for Adam's sake. Curiously in Moses 4:9 Eve tells the serpent that not only can they not eat of the fruit, but that they are not even to touch it, "lest ye die". There is a current medication called Finasteride (trade name of Propecia) that so toxic to the developing fetus that women are not only warned not to take the medication but the insert goes as far to state that women shouldn't even handle broken or crushed tablets. Perhaps my medical background has colored my perception, but to me the fruit is a drug. Choice is a decision. God made it clear that He wanted Adam to fall by an action. You may think that Adam's Fall is what causes death. I believe that the Fall is what allows Eternal Life. Guess I'm a glass is half full kinda of a guy...

I just read The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson (who happens to be LDS). It was one of the best books I have read in the SciFi / Fantasy genre. Apparently, it is the first book in a series of 10 total books. I'm so stoked! He managed to spice the story with some LDS doctrine here and there. The main character is loaded with Christ imagery, honor, sacrifice, duty, power, etc.

Concerning the first part of this post, I will refer you back to post #52. I have tried to be direct in my responses to your queries... A birth requires parents, the union of genetic material, and a pregnancy. I wholeheartedly believe that Adam was born and not created. Resurrection is a process unlike birth as described in the foregoing sentence. For completeness sake, the following is an excerpt of another post that I made some time ago. Joseph Fielding Smith, Man His Origin and Destiny, p. 354 True it is that the body of man enters upon its career as a tiny germ or embryo, which becomes an infant, quickened at a certain stage by the spirit whose tabernacle it is, and the child, after being born, develops into a man. There is nothing in this, however, to indicate that the original man, the first of our race, began life as anything less than a man, or less than the human germ or embryo that becomes a man. Gen. 2: 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh So Adam was born. He was not molded of clay. I believe that he was born like everyone else, and that he had parents. Moses 6:59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven of water and of the Spirit and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory. In this verse God is clearly speaking to Adam. And tells him that he was born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit. IF he was born with blood he was born a mortal not an immortal. So based on the previous statement and scripture I am going to argue that Adam was born as a mortal just like everyone else. How was this achieved? Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 50 Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with him. Then he commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as he had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the coarse material that was organized and composed this earth, until his system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of his children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth. Waiting for Worlds End, Diary of Wilford Woodruff, April 9, 1852 – quoting Brigham Young, p. 150 When our Father came into the Garden He came with his celestial body & brought one of his wifes with him & eat of the fruit of the garden until He could begat a tabernacle. I believe that the coarse material that God partook of within the Garden of Eden was the Tree of knowledge of good and evil. If God were to partake of the Tree of KoG&E he and his wife would become mortals. Why was this necessary? Because Celestial beings only create Spirits. Doctrines of Salvation, volume 2, p. 68 Spirit Children in the Resurrection. Those who attain to the exaltation in the celestial kingdom shall have the power of eternal increase of posterity, and they shall be "above all, because all things are subject unto them." Children born to parents who have obtained, through their faithfulness, the fullness of these blessings, shall be spirit children not clothed upon with tabernacles of flesh and bones. These children will be like we were before we came into this world. Franklin D. Richards, Scriptural Items, July 16, 1843 - quoting Joseph Smith The earthly is the image of the Heavenly shows that is by the multiplication of Lives that the eternal worlds are created and occupied that which is born of the flesh is flesh that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Wilford Woodruff Journal, Funeral sermon delivered at Nauvoo, Ill. west side of the temple on Sunday March 20, 1842 – quoting Joseph Smith Underlining added by Mikbone Resurrection - We Come Forth as we Lay Down - No Blood - Children with a Child's Body As concerning the resurrection I will merely say that all men will come from the grave as they lie down, whether old or young their will not be added unto their stature one cubit neither taken from it. All being raised by the power of God having the spirit of God in their bodies & not blood Children will be enthroned in the presence of God & the Lamb with bodies of the same stature that were on earth, Having been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb they will there enjoy a fullness of that light Glory & intelligence which is received in the celestial kingdom of God "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord, for they rest from their labors & their works do follow them So when God came down to Earth and created Man, He had to do so by becoming mortal himself. I believe that I have documented this pretty well. I suppose that the Tree of Life was in the Garden so that God and his Wife could then reverse themselves and Adam and Eve back into immortal beings. And because Adam and Eve were not begotten in sin they were innocent and did not know the difference between good and evil. I imagine that this must have been a nice vacation time for God and His Wife (and well deserved I must say).

The scenario I described is compatible with the above statements. The title 'Only Begotten Son' has much more meaning than what the above quote suggests though... Moses 2:26 And I, God, said unto mine Only Begotten, which was with me from the beginning: Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and it was so. And I, God, said: Let them have dominion over the fishes of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Jehovah was the Only Begotten from the beginning. You can argue that the tittle refers to Jehovah's future state, but I think that it suggests much more.

Not necessairly. I've thought this through a time or two believe me... Let us assume that two celestial beings for some reason wish to have a mortal offspring. This could be accomplished a number of ways. If this celestial couple were to partake of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they would then change their bodies from immortal into mortal. In this mortal state of flesh and blood, they could produce a mortal embryo the normal manner and then harvest the seed. After the seed is harvested they could then partake of the tree of life and be re-transformed into celestial bodies of flesh and bone. Then the Holy Ghost could transport the mortal seed anywhere he desired... But the mortal seed would most easily be nutrured within a chosen vessel such as the virgin mary. This scenario would produce a mortal who is the Son of God. This child would be 100% mortal, with a perfect genetic makeup. His spirit, knowledge, honor and obedience would be the factors that gives him Godliness though. Not his mortal tabernacle. The above scenario makes much more sense to me than the alternative of a celestial sperm combining with a mortal egg.

Alma 7:10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I happen to believe that He is also the Son of Heavenly Mother. I think that the Virgin Mary is a gestational surrogate. To whom do you suppose Jesus Christ is Sealed to? To the paternal Elohim and to the Virgin Mary? I doubt it. The above scripture states that the Virgin is a vessel (to me clearly stating that she is a surrogate). The scripture also states that the Child was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost. This does not mean that the Holy Ghost donated sperm and is the Father of Christ. No, absolutely not! It means that the Holy Ghost delivered the seed that was to become Jesus Christ into the womb of the Virgin. You may believe that the sperm of the male counterpart of Elohim and the egg of the mortal virgin mary combined to create the seed that was to become Jesus. But I don't. I think that the seed that was to become Jesus Christ was from Heavenly Parentage (Elohim in the plural). Jesus did inherit mortality from Mary though. Without her assistance Christ would not have been born. I find it interesting that Christ's genology is recorded twice in scripture, Matthew 1:1-17 & Luke 3:23-38. Matthew recorded Joseph's lineage, while Luke gave the family tree of Mary. I believe that both of those lineages are adoptive. His real family tree is much more impressive in my opinion. But back to the question of surrogacy... If an endowed and Temple Married couple were to use a gestational surrogate to produce their genetic offspring, would that child be sealed under the covenant or would he have to be sealed in the temple under a seperate ceremony?

Sounds like your asking me to speculate how the resurrection occurs. I don't know but I'm always willing to throw around and idea or two. I agree when we are born, receiving a body is a passive experience. The mother partakes of food (dust of the earth) and her body then breaks down the food into its basic constituents, amino acids, fatty acids, protients, minerals, etc.. The embryo implants onto the mothers uterus and the placenta and umbilical cord are eventually made. The fetus then has access to the mother's blood supply via the semi permeable membrane of the placenta. The mother's blood does not mix with the fetal blood, but the placenta allows transfer of nutrition and waste products between the mother and fetus. The fetus then uses the building blocks to grow during the gestation. At some point during the gestation the spirit then enters into the growing fetus to become a living mortal soul. The resurrection on the other hand is a vastly different process. We know that Christ's body lay within the tomb for 3 days prior to the resurrection. I would assume that Christ's body began to decay during those 3 days, then when He was resurrected, He somehow changed the matter in the body such that it became whole, clean, and immortal. This is an awesome transformation. Every atom, within his body had to change. The immortal body does not have blood within its veins. And the body is impervious to damage, or illness. I assume that the body also has many other wonderful properties. So, did Jesus have to use his decaying body and change that exact matter into the immortal body? Probably not. Does it make it easier to resurrect if you have the original corpse to work with? Probably. But then again I would venture to bet that If Christ's remains had been converted to pure energy that He could have still resurrected. We know from E=mc^2 that energy and matter are related. I dont have a background in physics... but I assume that God can take energy and convert that directly to matter. He no doubt can also convert one element to another element - nuclear reaction. He can obviously use basic elements to create molecules and more complex material, cells, organs, etc... I think that when everyone else that has ever lived on Earth resurrects that we will need much assistance to resurrect and clothe our spirits with matter. But I think that Christ was able to resurrect without assistance (that He essentially already knew how to convert matter into energy and vice versa and how to create an immortal organism from the elements). In my opinion His knowledge is immensely advanced compared to our ignorance... But we still have the potential to learn and gain the knowledge that He possesses. :) I would even say that if you could remove Christ from his current perfected and resurrected body. And then send his spirit into the vacuum of space. That He could re-materialize his perfected body by creating energy, converting that energy into matter and then organizing that matter into a body. If I were a betting man, I would put down some good money that the Holy Ghost could do the same right now if he chose to. How's that for some speculation???

I personally believe that the Virgin Mary was a surrogate mother... Alma 7:10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. I'm unsure if there is an official stance on the matter.

D&C 77:2-3 Personally, I would answer in the affirmative to all 3 of your questions.

For the sake of this discussion (the creation of the bodies of Adam & Eve in the Garden of Eden) the word resurrection has no context whatsoever. Adam and Eve were not resurrected beings in the Garden. You seem to want them to be. I accept that Adam and Eve were born to parents just like everyone else... There never will be a situation where someone will have to make an adult body that did not have parents. All men whom are resurrected had parents. I don't know the scientific specifics about how a disembodied spirit is able to reassemble a physical body 'clothing' their spirit and making an immortal personage (be it a glory of Celestial, Terestrial, Telestial or an immortal body of no glory). But it must not be too complex because everyone that has ever lived on Earth will be resurrected prior to the final judgement. The following is the best and only description of resurrection that I have ever seen written. http://chapmanresearch.org/PDF/Resurrection%20Experience%20of%20Zeke%20Johnson.pdf

Best anti-reincarnation scripture in the Book of Mormon. Alma 11: 45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

Guilty as charged. My favorite lines from Ezra T. Benson's talk "In the scriptures there is no such thing as righteous pride—it is always considered a sin." & "Pride is the universal sin, the great vice. Yes, pride is the universal sin, the great vice." Uchtdoft as I recall called Pride the gateway sin.

Unembodied - Soul that is currently only a spirit, and has never ever had a physical body. Disembodied - Soul that experienced mortal life (had a physical body) and then died and was seperated from the body and is currently existing as a spirit but is waiting for the resurrection. I believe that a disembodied spirit will be taught during the ordinance of resurrection how to control physical elements and clothe themselves. But no one prior to the resurrection of Christ was able to resurrect. Christ was the Firstborn from the Dead. It is of special note that Jesus Christ knew how to self-resurrect without instruction. Adam and Eve were unembodied, thus they needed assistance in receiving a body. There is a GREAT difference between getting a body the first time and resurrection. Otherwise whats to keep Satan from getting a body? Try as he might he will never get a body. This is a good point that you make. And it is a common belief. But it is one that I do not agree with. It is a whole different topic though... I have previously stated on various other threads that I think that Christ was able to do what He did because of his knowledge, understanding, worthiness and previous experiences. I believe that He became the Only Begotten because of his prior experiences. The spiritual birth order is NOT what made Jehovah who he is...

Our discussion is getting kinda confusing. But hey thats OK were dealing with difficult topics. And don't worry I don't offend easily. And I'm sorry if I sometimes come across contentious. I totally agree with your point above. When a person is resurrected the spirit of that personage must clothe itself with organic and inorganic matter. Does the matter that composes the recurrected body have to originate from the matter that existed within the same mortal body prior to death? Is there a percentage of the original matter that must be recycled? Or will any matter from the Earth do??? If I was a betting man, I'd say that any matter from the Earth would do just fine. Or else what happens to people that are cremated with their ashes scattered into the wind??? But then again the resurrection is totally different then receiving a body for the first time. Just because a disembodied spirit can clothe itself during the resurrection, does not mean that an unembodied spirit can do the same thing... April 7, 1844, Joseph Smith, excerpt from the King Follett Discourse as recorded in the Times & Seasons "Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves; to be kings and priests to God the same as all Gods have done; by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as doth those who sit enthroned in everlasting power; and I want you to know that God in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me; it is the first principles of consolation. How consoling to the mourner, when they are called to part with a husband, wife, father, mother, child or dear relative, to know, that although the earthly tabernacle shall be dissolved, that they shall rise in immortal glory, not to sorrow, suffer or die any more, but they shall be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. What is it? to inherit the same glory, the same power and the same exaltation, until you ascend the throne of eternal power the same as those who are gone before. What did Jesus do? why I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds came rolling into existence. I saw my Father work out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom I shall present it to my Father, so that he obtains kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt his glory, so that Jesus treads in his tracks to inherit what God did before; it is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn some of the first principles of the gospel, about which so much hath been said. When you climb a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and go on until you learn the last principle; it will be a great while before you have learned the last. It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it is a great thing to learn salvation beyond the grave. I suppose I am not allowed to go into an investigation of any thing that is not contained in the Bible, and I think there are so many wise men here, who would put me to death for treason; so I shall turn commentator to-day." To reiterate: 1) I assume that during the resurrection a disembodied spirit can resurrect de novo. 2) I assume that when an unembodied spirit is first is joined with a body, that it must be with the assistance of genetic material from the parents and an incubation most generally done in utero.