Gatorman

Just a few bullet points, based on what I read in general - 1 - My children do not recognize my parents as their parents, yet, I do. Similar to how God MAY see his Father as 'special', while we do not. 2 - I find great joy and fulfillment when my children do a good job at something, set a good example for others, etc. When they do good, it brings me joy as well. Ergo, Heavenly Father is served by us being good. 3 - Does God worship his Father? Perhaps. However, that fact is not germaine to my existence here or necessary for my salvation. So, while it is possible, it is not a necessary doctrinal point. 4 - Does God worshipping his Father make him any less? Well, I certainly hope not. Otherwise, the fact that I have parents would make me less of a parent. 5 - What is worship? To me, it is accepting His word to a deep enough degree to give up ones own will to accomplish that which He wants us to do. Though, saying to give up our will may be a misstatement. Perhaps, the better way to put it is taking his will as our own, desiring what he wants, and doing it. Such that service, prayer, sacrament, being fruitful and multiplying, sharing his word, etc, etc, etc, are all forms of worship. However, so is loving our fellow man, doing for others, etc.

No Snow. You can take it however you want. I understand your position, I disagree with it, and I know where I am. I am comfortable with where I am and I know I have the faith necessary to get where I need to be.

Other than the movie with Charleton Heston, can you please provide proof that infants and toddlers were killed? I believe someone has already suggested that First Born did not refer to them, but rather to the 'ritz' class of citizens.

So, as long as they are guilty, it is okay. Well, Pharoah and his people were guilty of persecuting God's chosen people. Laban was guilty of trying to kill Nephi and his brothers, of stealing from them, and of refusing to hand over the books containing genealogies and the word of God, when it was Heavenly Fathers will. I could continue, but, the point is, the people in most of these stories were guilty as a people. So, guilt...Check.

Because, holding hands in the middle east is a sign of friendship, not gayness...Our American stereotypes just don't fly around the rest of the world.

So, let's look at the Book of Mormon...When Christ was killed on the cross, the Earth was made to rent and twain in the BoM area. Upheavels and massive geological occurances. Many many people were killed in this time. Others were essentially terrorized by their survival. How could God do this? Based on your answer to bible stories, it is allegorical. It did not really happen. Or, it is mistranslated. However, we are told the Book of Mormon is the most correct and properly translated scriptures. How is it possible for us to not apply the same standard of explaining Heavenly Father to the BoM? Remember, one of the great heros of the BoM snuck into an enemy camp and murdered the opposing general in his sleep. He did not kill him in battle. Do these stories cause the same problems for you as the same types of stories in the bible?

Oh, that is actually an easy question to answer Snow. Why not make it easy to understand? Why not make it all simple and wrapped in a bow, basically? Because, then, it would not take faith to believe in what doesn't match up with what men teach us. It would not take faith to overcome our inability to understand parts. And, without faith......

Snow - You simply do not get it. You can not understand that your definition may not be Heavenly Fathers definition. If President Monson killed a man, by what our definition would state is murder, and proclaimed from the pulpit that he was commanded by Heavenly Father, then we would differ on what we see. I would favor towards considering that it is true. We have a promise that a modern day Prophet of our church will not be allowed to lead us astray. Either that promise is true and the Prophet is telling the truth or God lied. So, how would you reconcile that situation. A Prophet of Heavenly Father, commanded to take an action you see as evil, chooses to follow Heavenly Fathers will, and commits an act of murder. Is Heavenly Father evil? Is the Prophet being allowed to violate the promise given to us? Now, this is not really so different than what you want us to toss out. I have not said it is good or evil. I have said I can understand that I do not understand and I will not confine the discussion to a box of my own understanding. I believe Heavenly Father is capable of doing what is needed for his purposes. I believe that I, and you Snow, are incapable of understanding all of his ways. As such, there are scenarios that we simply will not be able to understand, but we are asked to accept it on faith that it is for his purposes. I choose to accept it on faith and look forward to the understanding that will come later. You appear to choose to determine that, since such actions would mean Heavenly Father does not meet your definition and fit in your box, it can't be true and we should ignore it. That is the point. I am not saying that these things are good. Simply that I believe Heavenly Father may have a purpose for commanding them and it is beyond us to understand that purpose. Now, twist away whatever you will. Again try to paint me that I am calling rape good. Whatever makes you feel better Snow. Just know that, my faith in my Heavenly Father is strong enough that your mistaken opinions will not change it. Now, as I do not want to get into a fight, to violate forum rules, or to allow the to degenerate any further, I am going to exit this thread for a while.

I have been to Walla Walla. Haven't been back...

Translation: Snow is only capable of twisting words and failing miserably to try to make someone feel bad about themselves. Snow, I do not claim to know Heavenly Fathers will or ways. Because of that, I do not define him by my own understanding of good and evil, right and wrong, or just and unjust. If you need to limit God to your own understanding, then feel free. However, quit trying to paint my position in a negative light, as you constantly do. You try to use your spin of what I say to make others thing I am bad, foolish, or wrong. Well Snow, frankly, you are wrong. I am none of the above. And, I have said it before and I will likely say it again, I will pray for you that you will find out through simple means, rather than through situations that can cause pain, anguish, and unhappiness, that Heavenly Father loves us, but, he will NOT be mocked and he is not limited to our simple understanding of things.

Nice try Snow, but, no. How about, God's will and purpose is above my own understanding at times. As such, his actions may seem 'bad' to me. However, his purpose may be necessary, good, and just. IE: I am not so simple minded to believe that my definition of 'good' defines God. I can understand that I am limited in my ability to understand him and I do not require that understanding to have faith in him. When I lack understanding, it is not necessary for me to dismiss him.

And, I did not say Pharoah did it either. But, neither am I suggesting Heavenly Father is evil if he did it himself. But, you don't like my reasoning. You can't accept it for whatever reason. You believe it is foolish to accept the mysteries of God. I believe it is faith.

Again, you are suggesting Heavenly Father did it. Heavenly Father allowed Pharoah's command to come upon ALL the first born of Egypt, except those who accepted the blood of the lamb, IE - representative of accepting Christ. If those people did not accept Christ, they would pay the punishment for following Pharoah. I see no 'evil' in God's actions. I see no immorality.

My point is, I can see the Egyptian children falling into the same reference. Heavenly Father allowed them to die so that Pharoah could be responsible for his actions. And on and on and on. And, Snow does not like the 'mystery' answer, so, I will simply say, I don't have all the answers and I know I will not have all the answers until that day comes. So, for me, not knowing the answer does NOT mean I have to redifine God based on my own understandings of morality, justice, or 'good'.

And, if God is so just, why were the people at Huan's Mill allowed to die? Was he in collusion with the devil? God allowed Satan to tempt Job, because, God had faith in Job. Faith that Job could handle it. Faith that Job could prove to Satan that Satan was not as great as he thought. And, what do WE get out of the lesson? That, we can handle anything. That Satan is not powerful. So, by allowing Satan to tempt and curse Job, for so long, Job was blessed and we are blessed today. What an evil, colluding person HF is, clearly.

Okay, I may be missing it, but, are there any examples from the new testament or the BoM AFTER Christ's atonement of these innocents being done evilly too at HFs command? If not, then I believe we have one part of the answer. There is no such thing as an innocent until the atonement. It was by the atonement that original sin was answered. Until then, man was required to perform their own sacrifices, because, they were sinners, even if they had never sinned. Children were born sinners, because, Adam's sin had not been answered. That is why Christ had to atone for those past sins as well. So, those women and children were not innocent in God's eyes. Maybe in our eyes today, as we believe sins have been answered for. However, at the time these events occured, there were no innocents. Christ was the first to take that mantle and then he sacrificed himself to give it to us all.

Agreed Snow. Heavenly Father would not possess someone to change their mind for them. However, he is capable of acting very persuasively. If he believed that the job was critical for that person, he could perform a miracle to help get that decision made. Perhaps he finds the other person ANOTHER job. Who knows? But, no, Heavenly Father would not act AS the employer and take away agency.

Pam - No more argumentative than Snow's original post. :) No, I am not posting this simply to argue with Snow. That being said, back on topic. This statement will seem harsh, but it is what I believe and it is NOT meant as an attack on anyone. I believe that ANYONE trying to limit Heavenly Father to a set of definitions limited on our understanding of science, morality, the world, history, or anything, does not understand the nature of Heavenly Father. Our understanding of morality is limited. Snow hypothesizes that Heavenly Father would not have killed the children of Egypt, because he is 'good'. I look at that occurence and say, 'What a miracle. Heavenly Father kept his promise to look out for the people of Israel. He performed an act that should have made clear his existence to the Egyptians. And, he kept his word to Pharoah. He said that he would do unto Pharoah whatever Pharoah chose to do next. Pharoah chose the punishment. I love my children and sometimes they require punishments that are 'mean' to them. And, often, they don't understand what is going on or why I can be so 'mean'. They only understand it based on their knowledge and learning so far. But, since I have grown up, I have learned that my parents were not mean. They did what seemed mean to my limited knowledge at the time, but, which I understand completely differently based on my further light and knowledge. To me, the idea of Heavenly Father's power being limited just grates. It is again based on our understanding of the world. Guess what? We are flawed, simple, stupid, animals, compared to Heavenly Father. Our understanding of the world is so flawed and wrong, that, in the hereafter, we will see how silly we were. The idea of a 4 sided triangle is not a matter of definition to me. It is a matter that I believe that Heavenly Father is omnipotent. He could do whatever he wanted, if he so chose to. Of course, if in the end I am wrong, it will not limit my faith in him I just refuse to try to constrain Heavely Father and make him less than he is or can be. I choose to excercise my faith in him greater than my faith in myself and my own knowledge. Now, ideas that Heavenly Father is constrained, that he can not or has not performed the miracles the scriptures teach us about because it does not line up with science, etc, smacks of a greater faith in science and in man than in Heavenly Father. I have never suggested science is bad or that it should be ignored. But, you will also NEVER find me suggesting that science should disprove scripture, disprove the nature of Heavenly Father, or disprove faith. And, to put it bluntly, these topics SUGGEST exactly that. If it is not the intent of posters who post these types of statements, then, they may desire to look at what they are accomplishing, rather than their intent. Because it may be based on ignorance, I post the following to help, not attack. Snow, these posts suggest to myself and others that you place science and your own understanding as higher and superior to Heavenly Father. Your posts suggest that Heavenly Father is not the great Heavenly Father we are taught he is and that we should attempt to constrain his ability and power to our own understanding of him. If I were to go by your posts of this nature alone, I would be stuck assuming that you were not only a non believer, but, that your mission in life was to try to destroy the faith of other people, to try to make them look foolish and stupid, and to cast their beliefs into doubt. I believe the scriptures warns us to be careful that our actions NEVER do that, even when it is not our intent. I am not saying that this is your intent. I am simply stating that it is an unintending consequence. So far, my faith has protected me from that unintended consequence, which I am grateful for. I say this, not simply because it is what I feel, but because I have spoken with others who have stated it just as plainly as I do. And, I also read posts by some people and see the same thing. Now, I know that this is likely not what your intent is, because the moderators would have long ago stopped someone who was truly trying to do this. It is why I do comment on your posts and get as serious about them as I do. I can not let stand your suppositions without stating my position, so others, who might have their faith shaken, can understand that, as intelligent as you post and as knowledgeable as you appaer to be, there are other ways to look at things which may be right. Your posts come off as if you are sure in your perfect knowledge of the world, as if you are a scholar and a scriptorian. But, at the same time, based on the posts alone, it appears as if for all your knowledge, you don't have a true faith in our Heavenly Father. I choose to believe that is because of the limitations of forum posting which removes some of our normal, human communication queues. I had not meant this to be this long. I do not mean this as an attack. I simple am trying to share how your posts come across to many, so you may choose your course. In the end, it is your course. And, I am sure I come across as a simpleton and a fool to you. I probably seem like I refuse to look critically at the scriptures and to question. And, it is for this reason that I choose to believe it is simply how you come across on the forum, and not because you are the type of person your posts suggest. Because, Snow, I am not as simple, foolish, or dogmatic as you would probably believe. :)

See the movie Fireproof. Read the Love Dare. Follow it. Practice it.

Simple, I can not, for I do not have God's understanding of things. I am limited by man's faulty and irrational understanding of things. I do not have God's definitions of geometric features. I am limited by man's limited ability. However, I do believe that Heavenly Father is not so limited. I understand that our definitions limit us. Since I believe Heavenly Father is not thusly limited, I believe it is perfectly possible that a 4 sided geometric figure, in God's understanding, could be a triangle and we are wrong. I do not place man's limitations on my understanding of God. It is why I can believe that he can make a man walk on water, a donkey talk, a bush burn without damage and his voice be present, and a flood occur that may not have left evidence. Man's weakness leads us to need to define things in terms we understand. When we can't understand something in our own ways, we have 2 choices. Excercise faith or deny it. My faith allows me to believe that, even if I am not able to explain it, Heavenly Father can do it. Now, can you explain to me why a Heavenly Father who created the Heavens and Earth, created man in his own likeness, and all the other things the LDS faith teaches us he did, is limited by our own understanding of the world?

Is God providing an extra burning of the heart to guide someone removing their free agency? Could they still choose to ignore that prompting? Remember, the other part of that discussion was why doesn't he answer some prayers? Why doesn't he stop the murderer, etc? Perhaps, he does intercede for us, but, the individual's agency allow them to condemn themselves by ignoring it.

If a triangle has 4 sides, it ceases to be man's definition of a triangle. The absurdity is the aboslute belief that man truly understands God's concept of a triangle. However, I will concede that, a 4 sided object would not be man's definition of a triangle.

God could clearly make a 4 sided triangle. The only limitation is not God's power, it is our understanding of his power. If you can not imagine him being able to create a 4 sided triangle, then, you do not truly understand his greatness and your own limitations.

Hmmm...Some of the thoughts stated here about light and intelligence and heavenly father being filled with light, what if we hypostulate that the Big Bang is actually the event where Heavenly Father finally achieved that perfect knowledge and therefore, 'banged' into his current existence? Or, maybe not. :)

Hmmm...I wonder if what Moses actually heard was 'God put atom in the Garden.' Not, 'God put Adam in the Garden.' Would make a HUGE difference in the evolution debate. LOL. Would that make the Garden some primordial ooze?