Gatorman

If taking care of everyone else is such a problem, how come the Obama's are not donating all of their extra income to charities, etc. Or, as President Bush suggested, nothing prevents you from sending the government extra money. So, why aren't they giving all of their own extra money to the government to take care of the deficit, provide extra medicare, etc. Set the example, before asking the rest of us to add to the kitty. I would not object to the idea of a government run program paid by such donation from those who choose to. I personally think other groups or agencies may be better suited to doing it than Uncle Sam, but, if it was optional, then, the big objections are gone.

And, again, you make assumptions. I have not stated my position in either direction. Yet, you seem perfectly capable of creating your own reality to support your position, draw conclusions only based on your assumptions, and assume that your personal interpretation of events is the way the world believes. Perhaps, if you started listening, instead of always trying to make a point, you may begin to understand. Until then, continue to be mistaken. And, I did not call you any names.

I admit I don't know them all, but, only one worth voting for based on what I do know is Ron Paul. The rest are crooks of the politician order.

There you go making your assumptions. And, making a....well, I think we all know what happens when one makes assumptions. So, how about you quit being like this and act like a reasonable person.

Might want to be careful Snow. You are assuming facts not in evidence and things you can, under no circumstance, prove to be true.

Fine Snow. You have no valid, reasonable, or worthwhile point. Have a nice day.

Interesting thing, those dark ages. You know, not the 'Knights' type of dark ages, but the type when there were not Prophets and Aposotles. And, interestingly enough, people didn't listen to other commandments or teachings either. In fact, they created their own, twisted the teachings, and created philophies of men intermingled with scripture. Sorry, your argument holds no weight and really is moot.

Not to speak for Dravin, but for myself. However, Paul has since been over ridden by subsequent Prophets/Seers/Revelators. So, Paul is out of date in this case, except as a reference to the times.

Then, how about a portion of the law that states that any illegal immigrant caught is deported. And, anyone who has come illegally and picked up benefits have those benefits removed. This would and should include 'anchor' babies. IE: We have ways to come here legally. Use those and welcome. Don't use those and we will give you a one way ticket back home. Then, it doesn't matter if it is about health care, social security, taxes, or whatever. If you are breaking the law, you are a criminal.

I think the point Grandma is trying to make is: Abortion = Murder National Health Care <> No death IE: We protect innocents from death at the hands of others. IE: Murder. But, a lack of health care is not the issue with the ideas being bandied around. Insurance is not a right. It is not a requirement for health care. Shoot, our hospitals are REQUIRED to provide healthcare for the uninsured. It is one of the reasons that our hospitals are in so much trouble. Tell me...How is requiring me to have health insurance going to provide health insurance for that 'mom'? Remember, the question is not providing health care, it is providing health INSURANCE. Health care is available to those who can't pay for it and don't have insurance. It is already there today. So, let's face the true question. Why do people 'have' to have health insurance? Why does our government have the authority to make that decision?

To me, that is a red herring in the healthcare debate. Not worth interjecting it as a primary point. IMHO...To each their own.

I have stated there are places for improvement in our current healthcare system. But, I also firmly believe that 90% of the problems in our current healthcare system are due to government involvement. So, to lay it out... 1 - Should an insurance company be able to deny insurance based on pre existing existence? No. Why is this different in their choice of how they run their business? They have a choice. They can not practice this business. 2 - Should the government set the standard prices and practices for healthcare? No. But, that is how our pricing structure is built today, due to Medicare. 3 - Should a hospital be required to serve anyone who comes in? 4 - Should a person be required to have health insurance? 5 - Should I be forced to pay for health insurance for someone else who refuses to work to provide for themselves? 6 - Should I be forced to pay for health insurance for someone else who is truly unable to provide for themselves? etc...etc...

This discussion to me is the problem with requiring scientific fact to line up with ones faith. They could prove whatever they want with DNA. It will not change my faith. I will just wait until we have true knowledge to learn the truth.

I am not suggesting that healthcare is a bad thing. I am suggesting the removal of choice is bad. :)

I don't think ANY of us have suggested that it is not proper that we all have access to healthcare, etc. I think the issue is, based on our form of government and the laws and documents covering it, there are 2 problems. 1 - The FEDERAL government has no authority to do it. We did not grant it to them and for them to do it without authority is a usurpation of authority, something akin to tyranny. 2 - No government has the authority to FORCE us to have healthcare. If the government were talking strictly about reform, IE - Changing things to make sure everyone could CHOOSE to have healthcare, we would not be arguing. So, should insurance companies be able to refuse to cover pre-existing conditions? Probably not. Should people be able to sue for ridiculous reasons and get unreasonable jury rewards? Probably not. Should the Federal government be so interfering in healthcare that prices are fixed in the market, hospitals are unable to cover costs, alternative treatments can't be considered, etc? Probably not. Should the government be allowed to tell me I MUST have insurance? Not unless we are signing up for Satan's Plan. Should the government be able to FORCE me to give my income to cover my neighbor? Not unless we are signing up for Satan's Plan. Could the government choose to offer a program that we could voluntarily contribute to? Well, there is an idea to be considered. Frankly, I would not give money to the federal government to do it, but, that is because they have a track record of not spending money wisely. Perhaps, if instead of 20%+ of my paycheck going to the federal government for taxes, social security, and Medicare, I kept the majority of that, then I would be able to give more of my own. But, the government has decided that we cannot be trusted to do what is right and that we are responsible for ensuring that everyone is taken care of. Not the plan I signed up for in the preexistance. Not the plan I signed up for here in the United States.

My personal take is...There is no member of the church who is not a convert. There has to be some conversion point where you gain your own testimony. Being born under the covenant does not mean you were born with a testimony of the truth. That conversion process has to take place. Now, it can be different things for different people, obviously. For example, for as long as I can remember, I knew what I believed. But, I did not know what faith represented what I believed. However, my beliefs were based on my own study and understanding of the scriptures and recognition of the flaws and good points of the various churches and faiths I grew up around. My conversion occurred on a Sunday when a friend finally convinced me to go to church with him. Talk about a heart opening experience.

Call the Danites out of Salt Lake City. Course, the rednecks out of Spanish Fork could be just as useful. hehehehe

That is an interesting perspective Snow. After much careful thought and consideration, I think I will consider President Hinckley's perspective more in line with what is truth. But, an interesting and thought out perspective none the less.

Yes, all those who believe they are paying a full tithing will receive the appropriate rewards. Any who pay extra due to miscalculations, etc, will be similarily blessed. Those who pay extra to gain extra rewards, I dunno. We are taught not to pay one jot or tittle more. You can not buy your way into Celestial glory. So, I don't think HF will be sitting there with a H&R Block accountant at the gates deciding we only paid 9%, etc.

Unless they pay tithing on the 401k payments when they retire.

And, my take is a little different. Tithing is supposed to be on your 'increase'. So, what is the definition of increase? I have seen numerous, including one that said increase is that which was left over after you had paid for all you had to pay for to live reasonably. Meaning, after home, food, etc, was dealt with. I dunno about that for myself. I pay on my take home. I pay on my income tax, if I get one. And, I have no doubt I am a full tithe payer, for what it is worth.

I think you are looking at it backwards. To me, the question is not, "Why is the Lord so detached from the World"...It is "Why does the World so reject help from the Lord".

Well, I admit, I have not been following the links. Instead, I try to follow the prophets. :)

pam - There is a line of thought about the power of our government. Our government has no power except that which we grant it. That means, we have to have a power to grant it to the government. So, the question is, what would it be called if I walked into my neighbors house, took $4500 from them, and gave it to someone else to get a new car? It is theivery. So, if I am a thief in performing such an act, then, the only thing I can do is give the government the authority to act in my name, with my own power. Therefore, it is still thievery to commit the act. Or, so the idea goes, which I believe President Benson suggested in some of his teachings.

An illusion of freedom is all we have today. Sure, we have SOME freedoms, but, not true freedom. Instead of looking to ourselves, our fellow man, etc, for help, we look to government to force us to do what is good and right. And, because our fellow man can not be trusted to do what is right for himself or his neighbor, we ask government to force him to do what is right. Sounds mighty familiar. Note, I am NOT speaking Republican or Democrat, socialist or conservative. I am merely speaking to the reality that is our world politics of today.