JayGlad

That's an ironic statement. So you're saying that even though a member who has been excommunicated (removed from the covenant), and who is no longer a member of the covenant, is still under covenant. Is that correct?

I neither suggested nor implied that one not seek to understand the ways of God (nothing could be further from the truth). You came to that on your own, from what I do not know, but it wasn't from anything I said.

If it doesn't release one from the covenants, what does it do?

It's already been said that excommunication is not a form of punishment, and should not be compared to anything punitive. If anyone insists on comparing excommunication something worldly, it can be compared to bankruptcy. Let's take a legal description of bankruptcy and adjust it for explaining excommunication: 'A legal proceeding involving a person that is unable to live up to his covenants and thereby incurred spiritual debt that he alone is unable to pay. The excommunication process begins with a petition filed by a judge of Israel (most common) or on behalf of a member (less common). All of the member's spiritual assets are measured and evaluated, whereupon it is recognized that the member is incapable of paying said outstanding debt, due to violation of his sacred covenants. Upon the successful completion of excommunication proceedings, the debtor is relieved of the covenant obligations incurred prior to filing for excommunication.' Excommunication is actually an act of immense love, on the part of our Savior. He has provided the means by which a "debtor" is allowed to step out from under the crushing debt of sin and broken covenants, set his life back in order, repent of those sins, reapply for baptism and the renewal of temple and priesthood blessings, thus being welcomed back into full fellowship in the kingdom of God on earth. What could be more loving than that!? How is that punitive? If you want to talk about punishment, think about the "debtor" being without the way and means to get out of such debt and being forced to suffer the consequences. That would be punishment; that would be punitive! Remember, it is the work and glory of the Savior "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man," and in some instances that process will require excommunication.

Coming into this thread late, so I apologize. This is not addressing a specific individual, but what I've gathered from the discussion in general. All too often we have the tendency to question why God does what He does and why can't He conform to our wishes. What we need to understand is that we should be asking ourselves why can't we (collectively and individually) accept His will and confirm to His way of doing things. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8-9). As we move closer to His ways and His thoughts, we are taking upon ourselves the "divine attributes" the apostle Paul spoke about (2 Peter 1). "For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ [and why He does things the way He does]" (2 Peter 1:8).

First of all, your statement is illogical: "If pay attention, will never know..." How does that work? Usually when one pays attention, they DO know. "...you will never know in this life whether you have or not unless you are of the same level..." That's another outlandish and totally false statement. I have met and known many truly righteous individuals in the Church. They stand on a higher spiritual ground than I do. It's easy to recognize them. How? They are humble, a trait that seems to elude some people. Instead of constantly bragging and telling everyone how spiritual they are, they actually behave in a humble, spiritual manner. "They are not going to tell you and it doesn't require a prophet to see such." From what I've read in these forums, it hasn't stopped you from telling. Therein lies the difference. And you're right, it doesn't take a prophet to recognize a self-righteous person. I have been paying attention and it is painfully obvious, from your various posts in these forums, that you are, without a doubt, the most self-righteous individual I have ever encountered. There is another one like you in our ward. All the rest of us are spiritual midgets, compared to him (or so he thinks). He knows it all. He's never mistaken (therefore he never apologies). He's constantly bragging about his spiritual experiences and how much the Lord has revealed to him (sound familiar?). This is your kingdom, your domain. I leave you to it.

You THINK you know what I said, but you didn't go back and re-read it, because if you had, you would not keep saying my statement was "incorrect." This tells me a great deal about you. My original statement was: Unfortunately, I have yet to meet or know anyone whose knowledge or understanding is at the level of Abraham or Enoch. (emphasis added) You do not know who I have or have not met, who I do or do not know. Therefore your declaration that my statement is incorrect is absolutely erroneous and totally unfounded.

I understand what you're saying. From where I'm setting, and based upon my reading of the thread, it has contained a "spirit of contention." Some post have appeared to have had the element of "anger" in them.

Hemi, please, go back and read my original statement, then return and report. It is a fact.

Sorry. You misunderstood me. I wasn't assuming anything. I was stating a fact. Regarding the avatar... Every time I see that face, it makes me smile.

Unfortunately, I have yet to meet or know anyone whose knowledge or understanding is at the level of Abraham or Enoch.

I’ve read The Kolob Theorem. My opinions of the book are just that, no more, no less. I think it is imperative that we all realize opinions are like noses, everybody’s got one. Food for thought… Take this thread and its topic as an example. There has been, on one level or another, a sense of contention. We all know where contention comes from (3 Ne 11:29). Some here think the book is one thing, some think it’s another. There little to be found in the way of a “general consensus” as to the validity of the author's theories. On the other hand, if we take another book, The Book of Mormon, we would all agree that “the Book of Mormon [is] the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book” (HTC, v.4, p 461). There would be neither debate nor contention on this fact. There have times in general conference when we have been counseled about depending too often on commentaries (and this all The Kolob Theorem is). Elder Dean L. Larson declared, “I am going to give more time and attention to the study and pondering of the scriptures themselves, rather than to the commentaries and criticisms that others have written about them. In doing this, I am going to be as open as I can be to the Spirit of the Lord so that I can understand these things for myself. Jacob said: ‘For the Spirit speaketh the truth and lieth not. Wherefore, it speaketh of things as they really are, and of things as they really will be; wherefore, these things are manifested unto us plainly, for the salvation of our souls’ (Jacob 4:13)” (Dean L. Larson, “Looking Beyond the Mark,” Ensign, Nov 1987, p 11). Hopefully, we all are teaching from the Scriptures by the Spirit (D&C 42:14). When we do, there is little or no room for contention to enter into the conversation. There is no room for argument on the validity of the information being shared.