estradling75

Which I gave clear back in post 6 http://www.lds.net/forums/christian-beliefs-board/48699-evidence-great-apostasy.html#post697919 And like everyone else I give more weight to that supports what I believe... For example you discredit modern findings on what the early christian church believed that supports LDS teaching by making the claim that is was from a heretical group... and therefore not valid. Yet from the LDS that belief that an apostasy occurred and that the Catholic church lost doctrine then the logical place to find it would be in groups that the Catholic church considers heretical. Thus 'proof' is exactly were we would expect to find it and were you will not accept it because it doesn't fit with your beliefs. So while you might be critical of us saying we believe because we believe... we see you doing the same thing

Because you miss the fundamental point.. We don't believe in the apostasy because of some historical proof... We believe in the apostasy because God told us it has happened and we are not going to argue with God about the matter. All the other 'evidences' (Even Talmage's) are 'arm of the Flesh' They are nice when they agree with what we know God has told us, and in error when they don't. But by no means to we put our trust in such no matter which way they might swing

Indeed it is a matter of Perspective... any one not of your faith would not see/agree with your claims. Pretty much any other Christan group is going to strongly disagree with your assessment of this

I have to ask... You profile says that you are Jewish... Is that in error? If it is not then why do you need the number?

Not really for me... Because if I have to choose between what God has taught me through study and prayer and what some random guy howling on the internet says? Well I find that a very easy choice to make

All the important questions is life come down to faith... a 'feeling' as you call it. Does God exist? Super important... Where is the historical evidence for God?... Atheists and agnostics will will look and say that there is no historical evidence.. A believer will look and say yes there is... They will never agree until faith is gained or lost by one side or the other. Did Jesus Christ live and resurrect 2000 years ago? Another super important question yet people are all over the map on the evidence. The more faith they have the more likely they are to say that yes that Christ did live and resurrect and is the Son of God. Now you can disbelieve the LDS take if you wish... But don't go around holding us to a higher standard of objective proof then you hold yourself to... You can no more objectively prove that it didn't happen, (that the Catholics currently hold the authority) then we can objectively prove that it did. (And that the LDS now hold it) Please note that if you can objectively prove that the Catholics have the authority by nature of said proof you also must prove that such authority exists, and by proving it exists you prove the existence of God so go convert atheist and agnostic with your evidence and see how far you get.

Wouldn't it be even more disrespectful not to respond to the bishop's text message?

You return like any less active/investigator does. You show up to church on Sunday... You read the scriptures and pray. At some point you will need to talk to the bishop and explain your history so he knows and can guide you, that is his role. You should expect to be treated like any less active/investigator which means more assignments and responsibility as you are judged to be ready for them based on your progression in coming back (again bishop's role) Clearly we can't tell you how welcoming your local ward and bishop are going to be but they should be very happy to help you go as far as you are willing

You call that outsmarting the system??? Its like thinking your nose is a bit big but to 'outsmart' those expensive plastic surgeons you self administer a chain saw to your face.

I know you asked Eowyn but I don't think she will mind me adding my two bits. I believe she is referring to the idea that if God is with a people the people will prosper and progress. Two things that didn't really happen during the Dark Age. Given that the Church (I assume you meant Catholic church) was the main religious power at the time it would seem to indicate that the God was not with the Church at this time. Which would mean apostasy. However when it comes to being Evidence it is entirely circumstantial. There are other reasons a group might prosper and not be with God, and reasons why a group with God would see hardships.

I'd go with 1... I figure he came looking for acceptance and validation and instead got dumped over the head with a big icy bucket of suck-it-up.

Personally I would ask an LDS leader... "Do you want to magnify your calling?" If they answer yes then I would tell them that in order to do so they need to master the basics which included all filling out all the proper forms. If they say no then I would tell they need to ask to be released because their lukewarmness about the calling was condemning them and boys (all potential future priesthood holders) deserved better examples of how to serve in the church. Of course I can be a very not nice person from time to time, so you might want to ignore me.

1. Incorrect... In order to enter the Celestial Kingdom one must be baptized. In order to be exalted in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom one must be sealed. But don't confuse Exaltation with Salvation (which is very easy to do even for long time members). The bulk of the entire human family is going to be saved somewhere in one of the three Kingdoms without being sealed. 2. It can be... It boils down to the motivation of the priest... If they go around preaching because they get money, then their heart is in the wrong place and it leads to trying to get more money... If they preach because it is the word of god and needs to go to everyone regardless of how they might pay them, then their hearts is right and then having a way for them to cover the necessities of life so they can continue preaching is a good thing.

The core basis of the LDS belief in an Apostasy comes from our belief in Modern Prophets and revelation. In Joseph Smith's first vision he sees God the Father and Jesus Christ and is told. 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” The whole context can be found here Joseph Smith?History 1* In the LDS belief it is God that has declared the apostasy and the need for a restoration. Thus like many religious claims it is primary based on faith. One can of course look for other evidences but when one does this one needs to be very careful not to take what they believe the 'Word of God' box it with their own understandings of what God must of meant and then go looking for that. That would be a very good way of destroying one's faith when they find he doesn't fit within their box or demands.

Very possible... Kids have ways of challenging us is ways we don't expect... And in this case she might think the issue is over once she finds a new man that will accept her conditions. I just wanted to give her a heads up that it most likely will not go away by just finding a man.

Not to be a total wet blanket... but I would like to encourage you to look out a little bit farther. It is one thing to come to peace with the Lord will fix things on a personal level but what if you and this Guy (whomever he might be) have kids? You will (presumably) want to teach them of the importance of being Sealed, because this is clearly something of high value to you. (as it should be) So how do you teach that when your example (as they will see it) runs contrary? They will not be sealed to the only (earthly) family they have ever known. Again I am not trying to further depress you, but I see it as a much more important consideration. Because your spouse will have chosen his path with you but your child(ren) (if you have any) will not.

There are many things in life that no matter how sorry one is one can not undo. We all must deal with the consequences of our actions. You might not think so but sexual transgression is a serious sin. It gets placed right up their after murder in the scriptures. And serious sin takes time and serious amount of effort to over come so that one is worthy of the privileges they once had. Missionaries when they go out to teach the gospel are going to calling people to repentance. This includes the area of sexual transgression. They need to be clean or they are going to be hypocrites without the power of the spirit.

They have reasonably recently tightened up the standards for missionary.. So yes it is now true... However being told that they can not serve a mission (which is something all young men are told to prepare for and be worthy to do) is not the same as being excommunicated

Its not about guns being more dangerous (other then the possibility of being poorly designed and blowing up in the users face) Its about guns being more accessible... Got a guy who is currently unable to legally carry? All he will need is a printer, or a friend with a printer or someone with a printer that he can intimate/bribe. Now admittedly a harden criminal is going to find a way to get a gun anyways... But there are other classes of people that would be scary to have holding gun. Like a kid, or like anyone that prints one up because they can but they don't bother to get trained on how to use it safely.

Try this wikipedia article for information on the three Three Witnesses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You do know that bouncing around from question to question make it hard to give meaningful answers right? While I understand that you are probably just writing as you think of stuff, for those that take the time to answer you appear to be less interested in hearing the answers then to be asking rapid fire questions.

Which comes back to you having a fundamental misunderstanding of what excommunication does. If excommunication was never come back there would be restraining orders filed... Bouncers checking IDs at the door...etc... etc... The worse you get is some members being judgmental and making you feel unwelcome and that is contrary to what the church teaches. Excommunication is saying you messed up in a major way, and because of it certain privileges are going to be revoked until you show you can handle it. With the hope and expectation that you will step up and correct your course.

Sorry for my misunderstanding about your mothers situation... I thought you talking something personal not something you were just curious about It is also my understanding that many that are ex-d do not return. It is also my understanding that the church is being a lot more restrained now about excommunicating people for this. But I have no proof to back up any of those understandings. As for why someone might be ex-d for one time it really depends. We believe that where much is given much is required. So someone like a bishop or lifelong active member is going to be held to a higher standard then a recent convert or someone just returning to activity. In a way image if you were a parent and you had two kids that did something wrong. One was a toddler and one was a 18 years old. What they did was clearly wrong and needs to be corrected. As the parent would you use the same method for both?

If it is not in your Junk mail folder (or for some reason it doesn't take) you will need to verify manually. Manual verification requires you to click on the Contact Us link... (bottom right corner of this page) The system is designed to auto delete unverified account after 7 days so you need to have it done by then

This simply shows you (maybe even your mother) do not understand what excommunication is about. Your mother as a member was under a covenant (Baptism at the very least) when she sinned she also broke this covenant and heaped condemnation to her soul. Now I don't know the details of the church council that excommunicated her but excommunication removes the covenant so that further transgressions do not lead to further covenant breaking and further condemnation for breaking said covenant. Therefore it is an act of mercy, it is also a reset. So the person if they desire can repent and undo the damage. This is very much showing mercy and saying Go and sin no more. As for being kicked out that is not what the church has done. She is more then welcome to come and sit and enjoy church with everyone else. Her status is now the same as any potential convert who are very much welcome to attend. The only things I can see stopping her is her pride and/or her unwillingness to repent of her sins... And the possibility that some members through pride and lack of forgiveness are making her feel unwelcome. That situation unfortunately can exist, but it is contrary to what both Christ and the Church teaches. Its wrong and it sucks but for someone coming back really the only thing they can do is accept it as a trial they need to go through and push through it.