porterrockwell

I AM LDS you dummy. Coulda fooled me!

Actually a bit much more than a few days, try nearly 3 weeks, and have you ever been, or gone through the process of preparing for a mission? No, huh. And it's not MY logic, again, you have to be there to understand. That place is a spiritual filter. It takes a great deal of commitment and spiritual fortitude to fullfill said calling. My whole point is that this person knew the church was true, he gave into lust that was clearly contradictory to his beliefs. Now he is supporting something that is very immoral and dragging the churches name through it. He's no different than that South Park loser who made a movie called "Orgazmo". And if protecting my beliefs and standing up for what I believe in hurts your feelings, too bad.

But it is still not good manners to label unfavorably...hmmm? ............... I'm saying that I don't like it that they're preachy and annoying. ...and you're saying that you don't like that that I take notice of it. Guess we both state what we don't like in others. And I am saying that I don't like the fact that some have chosen base, worldly values, and conciously refute LDS beliefs because it calls to attention the inappropriate(or lack there-of)values of said persons lifestyle. And that I am considered to be self-righteous because I want to be the best person I can possibly be. My intent and your perception are two very different things. I don't look down on others for choosing to indulge in their carnal lusts, but I do not agree with them, nor do I take exception to them. I refuse to worship the Lord with respect of persons. And I am perfectly capable of humbling myself and shrugging those immoral things which weigh me down.

Way to go, Porter. (But tone it down a notch or two. ) 1...I am confident that if I am worthy and longsuffering I will be capable of that which the Lord has called me to this earth to do. Your as much as an ignorant, base, fool as I am full of myself. Only you aren't a young pup I would hope that you sense of urgency is a lot more abrupt and motivating than mine at this point. Secondly, I am one of the most mellow, fellowshipping people you would know. This forum is for discussion, if you think you can come in here, refute principles, challenge doctrine, and slam LDS for believing what they believe and being honest with you, and then get offended when we defend ourselves and our principals valiantly. If I was to do as I do in the REAL WORLD I probably wouldn't have posted by now. BUt that is what these forums are for, if we are not allowed to be as passionate in defense as those against us are in accusation then what is the point of this board. It's always fun to ruffle a few feathers until you take one in the grill, then it's gone too far(typical)! I'll tone it down, when the attitude of those here is too learn and not scoff.

Is that a fact? Are you speaking from experience? I have been in the MTC, and have been on many missionary outings. So yes, from experience. Unless you believe otherwise?

I guess that my point is, from now till Christ comes, if I don't see one miracle, or one grain of sand of historical evidence that the BOM existed as written by ancient prophets, it's not going to change my belief, because the true witness is the Holy Ghost. I also agree with your statement, which is why it kills me that people ask for proof and signs. If you base your belief on worldly proof, well, then you won't stand in any one camp too long.

Peace that is exactly what I said. If I go around preaching LDS Doctrine, then retire each night to every malicious deviant sin that I am opposing daily in public. I am a hyprocrite and no better than those who have need of the spirit.

The Church shouldn't give this a hint of opposition, or publicity. Let those who wish to see it, see it. Those who understand the principles and morals of being LDS will abide otherwise. It's kind of sad, because, this is someone who left Jesus Christ for a petty sexual experience that will not continue into the next life. Also, someone who went on mission, and let me tell you something, you don't make it through the MTC or all the way through a mission for that matter without conviction and belief. So it is sad to see those who knew the truth reject it.

How on earth could anybody answer that question? His disciples all witnessed his miracles. Jesus didn't expect them to sacrifice their lives for His gospel until they had witnessed those things. They had their proof and they gave their lives for it. Even Paul (who didn't live side by side with the Savior) had an indisputable witness. None of them did what they did strictly by faith. We are also asked not to tempt our Lord for a sign. The only proof I need is the Holy Ghost. I can answer that question. And again it is a resounding NO! They didn't say, prove to me that ye are the Christ or I can in ways follow thee! They had faith, they witnessed things that were miracles sufficient to their faith. Granted their faith was not perfect, but did not Peter in one instance walk on water because of his faith. I guess again, I have had an easier time grasping faith, and really can't understand the other side of it. Maybe that is what I am here for, is to understand just how someone can have such a lack of faith.

Again, you don't know me bro. I don't force people to do things, nor have I grown up in an environment that has forced me to do things. At about 11 my parents told me that I had a CHOICE on whether I would like to go to church or not. They didn't ever force me and I would go through 6 month intervals where I wouldn't go to church. I have had more ability to choose than any person I know. So to imply that I am the forcing type is not very correct. You can also ask my bishop, he was the youth leader at the time and currently has a son who has kind of fallen away(he's 18) and has been going that route since he was 12. Well, we used to be in the same Sunday School class, and he is one of those rebellious MTV-generation kids. Every Sunday, instead of marching straight laced and buttoned up into Sunday School I would walk with him down the street from our church and just talk. Most sundays we would get down about a mile and a half and then his Dad(who is one of the coolest people I know) would drive up next to us and heard us back in to the church. So I don't think you get a grip on who I am. We are in a discussion forum, in which we are discussing LDS Doctrine, I tend to cut through the posturing and get right down to the heart of the issue. And if you haven't noticed, it helps me keep in mind what I believe in. If you don't review and practice what you "preach" you become a hypocrite, and a liar. A hypocrite is not someone that is imperfect, but at heart has no love or conviction for that which they profess.

I appreciate your insight, and your opinion I really do. And Ray, don't worry, I won't let it get to my head. I have about 3 million years of things to learn about this gospel and only about 60 years and clicking to do so. I have been greatly humbled in the past, and let's just say that I am not stupid enoug to repeat the years of my life from 11-18. So I am glad that I come off(to you at least) as self-righteous and preachy, rather that than drinking, screwing, and smoking. the "Eat, Drink, and be Merry for tomorrow we die!" approach just don't cut it for me personally. As far as your perception on me being preachy, I don't live my life in a forum. Plus, we are in a forum that discusses GOSPEL DOCTRINE and PRINCIPLES. So how do you convey principle, consequence, and reason for being without sounding preachy. I have been around those types, they speak with LIPSERVICE, then turn around and do exactly what they are "supposedly" against. I in no way wish to abide by lipservice. It's just like a foil gum wrapper. If you have a cavity, and you bite down on it...it gonna hurt. Why, because their is a flaw, a neglect or abuse of some sort. That nerve is subjective to pointing out flaw when exposed to proper elements that otherwise would not affect a healthy tooth. The same thing with the Gospel, only we all ALWAYS have something to work on. We just believe that we as members or the Church have the opportunity and Doctrine at our disposal to become more like Christ and take advantage of his atoning sacrifice through sacrament and renewing our baptismal covenants.

Jenda, not proveable to worldly standards. But do we need worldly standards to verify that which is true. If the Lord intended for things to be proven easily, we would not have vail placed over our spriritual eyes, nor would we be in this probationary state. It's about faith. I have one question for everybody, a simple yes or no will do(actually kind of a self reflecting question). Let's say that you walked with the Savior during his ministry...Would you with disbelief in your heart require a miracle of the Savior as physical proof of his ability and true nature? Or would you rely on prayer and true intent to know the Savior and his mission by the confirmation of the Holy Ghost? I would choose the latter myself, so my answer to the first question is NO!

For one, you don't really know me. Secondly, I don't have a self-righteous attitude, I just don't appreciate people coming on a MORMON BOARD and telling me not to have a voice about religion. I also don't have people lke sgallan and company who are bitter individuals residually investing time into a community that they wish nothing to be a part of! Self-Righteousness is someone who preaches one thing and does another. Someone with the "Holier than thou" approach. I don't consider myself holier than anyone, I just know the truth, and if that offends you then too bad. If you think I am arrogant, too bad. I can gaurantee you that if you had observed one day of my life ever, you would see I am the least judgemental person you will ever meet. That being said, why come on a mormon board and expect not to hear MORMON DOCTRINE. Now I agree I am a bit aggressive, but you paint a very unfair picture of me. I should have recorded and saved my RC calls from the MTC. Then maybe you would understand. I'm also not a missionary from hell nor do I take that approach. I sat with 4 missionaries in my area as they discussed the Gospel with a woman whos house we had just finished reorganizing. She was dancing around every question, stating false doctrine, and anything esle that would test a persons patience. I said nothing, but mearly sat and listened. Was very affectionate to her point of view, even had a heart to heart with her when she gave me ride home. You judge me without even knowing me...talk about being self-righteous. I commend Ray. It is geniunely tough for Mormons out in the world. We are supposedly allowed to worship freely, yet we are consistantly bombarded and called a Satanic Cult, called fundamentalists because we believe in morals and family, and considered religious biggots because we do not support homosexuality in it's "quest" for institution of marriage. All the while the people that think lowly of us commit, whoredoms, drink, smoke, have filthy language, and surround themselves in all manner of iniquity. We heed the words of a prophet who is called of God because we wish only to be obedient the revelation given to us for our benefit and we are called close-minded and considered to never "think for ourselves". We are called prudes because we do not wish to engage in sexual activity previous to marriage. Noone is perfect, but have you ever taken a step back and taken a look at what we believe in and what we stand for? And in a world where agenda driven lunatics are TRYING to impose upon us "social dictates", we aren't and shouldn't be expected to just let people walk all over us and our foundation of moral structure. So I find it funny that people who believe in "progressive social theory" are allowed and applauded for being as loud and as boisterous as they please. Noone is trying to force their way into your home, if I knock on a door, and noone wants to let me, I move on. But that doesn't mean that once you have the respect from others of your boundaries you turn around and maliciously attack the precepts and principals of the restored Gospel. I will always say this, as it is completely true. Harshness of word(reciprocated from the scriptures, not personal opinion) will always offend those who have fallen from truth. Provided that scripture is translated and interpertated correctly. I believe, and know that we are the one true church. You can CHOOSE to be offended by it, just as you can CHOOSE not only to be offended by me, but by the Lord in the same breath. It was said that Latter-Saints would be hated, and persecuted in the Last Days. What side are you on?

All I can say curvette is that for me to totally clarify that would be foolish. I would think that one would have to ask that question of a person in authority. This is a topic I have just never worried about. Not because I do not think it is important to know such things. But because I have never come across a situation where a person of such authority has ever been ex'd.

Furthermore, there is no way at this point in time of knowing whether Christ was married. The reason why I believe that there is a possibility is NOT because the Bible is vague about it. It is because Jesus Christ was sent to fullfill all righteousness. He was perfect, yet baptized....in the Garden of Gesthemane he took upon us his sins, yet still crucified....to fullfill all righteousness. We don't know whether he was or wasn't and to the person that says he has more "proof" than that of the other is just as foolish as he deems the first to be. Whether or not it is "historical" does not prove anything. I can show you historical writings of those who plain and simply worshipped the devil and thought very highly of their fruits(even though corrupt). So much so that they documented it. There are a great deal of people that can give "historical proof" that we evolved from monkey-like beings. There also has YET to be sufficient findings pertaining to that of BOM, but even if there was, that would make you a believer? To a jury Johnny Cochrane gave "sufficient proof" that OJ didn't murder anybody...you see what I am getting at here. We should not tempt our Lord for a sign. If you need proof first, how then do you establish faith and conviction based on that faith. If there was NO evidence(historically speaking)that the Bible was historically factual...would you still believe it? I know I would. Oh ye of little faith.

Ahhh, I appreciate the concern, seriously. However, I have one of the best doctor/counselor combo's in the world. My bishop has left such matters up to them. As far as the scriptures go, they are a source of strength. I am not manic, I have ADD so, sometimes my mind is flying at two hundred miles an hour and slowing it down can be interesting. Interesting though, you wouldn't comment...if YOU DIDN'T CARE. Same goes for me. I wouldn't comment if I didn't care. As far as me being arrogant and using my religion as a weapon. I am an agressive person. No doubt, but you don't know me bro. I have friends who are not LDS, and all they want to do is screw and drink. I don't bring up the Gospel with them because I know their situation and it would be counter constructive. Instead I am just a friend to them. We have a recent convert who is a Pastors son, he has a friend he keeps bringing so that we can fellowship him. He has already said he has no intention of joining the church. So I don't pressure him or talk to him about our beliefs. Instead, I am just happy to see him come tour Singles Ward dances and Family Home Evenings. I even sit and listen to his beliefs. But no pressure, we just treat him as a person. He even came up to me at a dance(laugh if you want but the chics in my area are not exactly pleasing to the eye and their was like 30 people there) and I was reading the BOM. He sat down next to me and asked "Oh, is that the Mormon Bible?" Now that was honest question and he came from what sounds like a pretty Orthodox Christian "Center", so I said,"Oh, no, this is the Bible(turned to the Bible)...this(turned to BOM) is the Book of Mormon. "It's just another testament of Jesus Christ." That is all that was said. Now I joke. Like this week, we were hanging out in the gym and leaned to him and said, "Better watch out Bro, pretty soon we are gonna have ta' blindfold ya, throw you in a gunny sack and dip you in the font a few times!" We both laughed. Followed by a "Nah just kidding, we have to brainwash you first". We laughed some more. (I kinda like to joke a lot...if you couldn't tell by now). Anyway, I'm gonna go watch some TV. Just woke up and I am bored.

Why? I agree whole heartedly Cal. Especially with that last line. If you can't have faith without proof, do you really have faith. I'm not saying that proof won't make men believers, but what is belief without faith previous to conversion?

Unworthiness is a serious issue. We in the church don't give a slap on the wrist. Every member is responsible to deal with worthiness issues in accordance with their bishop. It doesn't help anyone to act as a worthy member if one is not. Now as far baptisms. If one has fornicated, and then attempts to perform a baptism. That person does NOT possess the authority to perform that ordinance and for the most part you either get disfellowship or ex'd. The whole point is to stay worthy but this was a good question.

Well there’s an interesting idea. I wonder how original it is. First off, who is it up to? If it is even possible to “build a community where all righteous minded people of ANY “Christian” denomination could come together and be at peace”, who could do that? What would be involved? Would it ever really happen? Sounds like the Unitarian Universalist Church to me. I went there once, and enjoyed it. But how could one ever convince Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Jews, Muslims, etc. to all go there each Sunday instead of attending their own meetings? The only people who would show up would be the liberal-minded ones. True...but if your views contradict LDS teachings in any way you are better off to keep quiet about it. Like I do First off Jason, good luck bro. In whatever you find. Secondly, Tao, it's not people bringing up contradictory beliefs that frustrates me. It's the simple attitude of contradicting beliefs JUST to contradict because we are Mormon. I have seen and heard many a "mainstreamer" take opposition to LDS principle even though they may perfectly agree with it, only because they have one mission, to keep us out of Christianity. It most of the time takes the place of actually worshipping the Lord. So that is what gets frustrating. I could say the sky is blue and as previously mentioned, I would get a theological assessment about how it really isn't, only because I a Mormon. That is the general attitude toward Mormons on other "Christian" forums. So when we have a forum for Latter-Day Saints, it can get frustrating to have so much counter opinion. Even when it is a constructive breakdown of principle for the meer sake of understanding.

Hey Porter, You're only 20 years old. What's the hurry? You have plenty of time to be a self-rigtheous, santimonious, demagogue when you're older. Why be in such a rush right now? Which by the way, elder, what does your companion say about you posting of the internet? Shouldn't you be out harvesting or something. Forget your your sickle? Oh, actually Snow, I only got through two weeks of the MTC. About 3 months before before I went into the MTC(I went in January 14th)things got rough, I as other had to go through my test. Unfortunately I did something that I will never do again. I allowed me to judge me instead of the Big Man Upsturs. I blew little transgressions way out of proportion, and I tried to be perfect. And when I fell short, I got on myself hard. I thought I was humbling myself....but it was actually a self-destructive pattern that was developing. Finally, when I was set apart as a missionary, a certain load lifted from me, like a large part of just getting there was already being accomplished. Throughout this 3 month period I slept maybe 3 hours of actual unconcious, good sleep. However, even in those 3 hours it felt like I was living another life, so when I woke up I was hardly refreshed. There were some things of concern to me that I thought would keep me from a mission, but upon talking to my bishop he told me to stop worrying and that I was ok. However, by this time, the word UNWORTHY was branded in to my brain, so even if I was, I couldn't bring myself to believe it. When I got into the MTC, I still didn't sleep, the first night I was an AP(so I got to deal with a lot of DRAMA), I was reading scriptures for 12 hours a day, and I had 2 ear infections and a sinus infection. Thus if I even laughed I was HACKING up a lung like I had been a habitual chain smoker or something. So all in all, I was in a downward spiral. Eventually they had to send me home on medical leave so I could resolve things, and then come back when everything was ok. The counselor I have now was a Chaplain for our church and knows 5 or 6 of the 12 very well, they have definately had a very big impression on him. He has been a bishop about 3 times as well, so it is like talking to a GA. I really like it. They got me on PAXIL CR to see if that will help me sleep and cut down some of the stress. That was my problem anxiety/depression. So now I am home reading the scriptures like a gangbuster and I have to admit, this time off is good for me, when and if I go back I will be prepared and ready to ship out. As far as being self-righteous, people only really like to consider themselves when speaking of this equation. How is showing concern, and charity towards a person arrogance or self-righteousness??? Harshness of words only has applied(when spoken with a loving intent) to those who have fallen from truth and such statements bruise their pride. Now granted noone is perfect, so how can you call someone arrogant know they are not perfect when ALL they want to do is help you. Life isn't candy coated when you decide to choose a different path from that of the Lord. Also, remember Jesus Christ himself said to an Apostle that was trying to convince him to stay away from his eventual fate, "Get behind me Satan"! Now, let's examine that, a loyal follower, a concerned follower who is trying to look out for his King, and the Lord say what is out there plain of day...GET BEHIND ME SATAN!!! The Lord to an Apostle. Let us not forget that none(in this forum)can claim such foreordained standing upon this earth as those who walked and died for Jesus Christ and the Gospel. And still the Lord did not hesitate to say get behind me Satan. Now, the prideful thing to do for Peter would have been to revolt against such a remark and lament the situation and despise the comments. But what would that tell you?? You wanna know why I am so young and so determined, because I understand very greatly the evils of the world and what weaknesses I have unto those evils. I don't want to toil in things such as fornication, unatural sexuality, alcohol, nicotine, drugs, pornography, loud laughter, evil speaking, murder, theft, Idolatry, blasthfemie. I am not perfect nor will I ever be in this probationary state, but I am more concerned with the Celestial Kingdom and the gifts I have instore if I lose myself in the work and work to build my faith upon the Rock(which is Christ, the Cornerstone). You can call me conceted, or arrogant, or even self-righteous...but I am not here to please you, for I do not worship my God with respect of persons. I understand at least somewhat that of a Eternal perspective, so if I sound like I am cocky, it's just because I want Eternal life more than money, or meaningless sex, or recognition among men. This is just a small part of my progression, so why on Earth would I schuck my conviction, because someone's pride was hurt. You say those men were dorks that visited your home, I say otherwise, God bless those that show concern. If Christ himself came into your own living and ask, why hast thou forsaken thy covenants that thou hast made unto my Father in my name? Would you tell him off? You can play the arrogance card all you like, call me self-righteous, insult me if you like. But I stand by my MORAL CONVICTION. I try every day to walk in a way that Christ would have walked. Judge lest ye be Judged.

You rejected a servant of Christ? Why? I would hope that Ray would have a great deal of the same qualities that a servant of the Lord would have. That comment that you no longer wish to have Christ in your life was not ment in Gest. By what do you base your "knowing of Christ in your life?" I have been blessed because I do not struggle with that of the Gospel. And I cannot say I understand what standpoint you come from. The fact that you still feel loved is a feeling that everyone should have, but Christ said that he even loved those that sinned to the highest degree. So is feeling his love a basis of truth. I don't really think so, it's part of it, but the underlining factor is the Holy Ghost. I was up from 1-5 a.m. this morning scouring the Bible for that which signifies the plain and simple truths. I found a great deal of information and I am stumped, what is it that makes you feel as though the Church is trapping you, or confining your ability to know Christ? Also, those men that came to your did so out of love and charity, whether you believe so or not. Remember what the Savior said EVEN TO SIMON PETER when Peter was trying to convince him not to enter into Jerusalem and the ensuing torment. "Get behind me Satan". I'm pretty sure those words cut deep, but sometimes, the harshness of the word comes to those who are offenders of the truth. I am not accusing you of anything, but I am confused. You claim that in your perspective we are not the one true Church, nor do you wish to have such precepts brought upon you in any manner, yet you continue to visit an LDS forum, in which most of us are only trying to spread the Gospel to those who don't have it. In this case, we are not coming into your home, you are coming into ours.

Most of the time ask them thoughtful, open ended questions. This a good way to be helpful yet effective at the same time. Also, if one cannot seem to accept the "basics" of the Restored Gospel(Articles Faith in large part), there is a good chance that the "meat"(as most will call it) of our religion will seem foreign and very difficult to understand. That being said, there was a occasion where a missionary and his companion were walking along and a woman was walking into her house. The young missionary was impressed to ask her "Do you know where babies go when they die?", he didn't know why, but he asked. Of course the obviously descheveled woman turned and upon hearing such a question, and invited the missionaries in to talk. Upon further discussion, it was told by the woman that her Pastor had come by and told her that because her baby was not baptised before he died it would go to hell. Upon hearing the joyous truth that all infants not of a baptizable age are alive in Christ and that her child was in the presence of our Heavenly Father. This of course prompted her to take the discussions and join the church. So I guess the moral of the story, is be worthy and pray to be effective, that the Lord with loose your tongue at that moment that ye need do so.

Good insight Ray. I have a little story that put things into perspective. I am 20, however, have always stayed close to the youth of the Church. During a combined activity, my former bishop, who is now the presiding High Priest of our ward, had us play a game-if you will. Everyone sat in chairs in a HUGE circle. Then, a large, brown, paper bag with skittles was passed around. The objective was to take two skittles out. If they matched in color, you could start chewing. The minute someone ahead of you got doubles you had to stop. If you didn't get a pair, you had to keep them in your mouth. Well the process repeated itself for nearly 15 minutes, and I had developed a mouthful, likened unto that of a major leaguers chaw. It had gotten so big it was tucked tightly within my lower lip and cheek. Then, he told us to stop and to keep whatever we had left in our mouths. Then, his story and lesson related that which was in our mouths(for me the gigantic, sugary lump of what use to be skittles) to the word of God. The whole message was that if we possess truth and knowledge that is of good fruit and valued by those seeking the light of Christ and the true nature of the Lord(i.e. the Godhead, and not the trinity) why should it remain there. By now, the sugar was seeping into my roots and the three teeth that the skittles were now stuck to were starting to sting. So I gained a great deal of perspective that day. Allbeit from a somewhat sophmoric(for lack of a better phrase) exercise(spiritually speaking). We have a duty to share the Gospel with those who do not it. Whether or not they accept it is between them and the Lord, we must only be worthy instruments in the Lord's hands. He converts, we are the vessel by which that message can be shared. Likewise, if one does not agree or even is maliciously seeking to desicrate our sacred truths, we must not contend. This unfortunately is my GREATEST struggle. At the same time maintaining defense of plain and simple truths(for me, drawing that line is tough). So in the end, even the greatest of scoffers ye shall not convert, but plant a seed for that conversion. One thing I took to heart in the book "Tools for a Missionary", was that we will not baptize or convert every person we see, but we can plant a seed in every willing household. For there will be those of future generations that come upon those that have had that seed planted and will be able to be baptized because of what you did at an earlier time. My baby sitter (about 8 years ago) in my earlier years was a convert to the Church. Her comment to my mother on conversion, was that sometimes it takes 12 years of fellowship(which was her case). We must only have faith that by sharing the word, the Lord's chosen shall hear the word and heed it, and return to the fold. When and how is not for us to judge, nor to worry(again, I struggle mightily with this one). However, the Lord does know that we care, and that care for others can sometimes be seen and taken as judgement. And in some cases(including some of my own) it is judgement, which is not good. But none are perfect save it be the Lamb of God. So all I can say is, put your shoulder to the wheel, and walk in the manner that your Father in Heaven has instructed you.

Jenda is a part of a Church that has no authority to the priesthood. Unfortunately they were bitter when Brigham Young was given the reigns by GOD, and they seperated themselves from the truth. It is clearly evident that those who have followed the RLDS path have now many "splintered" communities to choose from...hmmmm...wonder why. Plus, if you will notice, they are starting to look and sound like mainstreamers. Again, wonder why?

Jesus was perfect, he gave heed to no temptation. We do not challenge the acts done of God through the Lamb. You sound like one of those people who applauded the movie "The Last Temptation of Christ"! What a despicable, slanderous movie.