porterrockwell

Do you even believe in God...furthermore do you really believe that the Quorum of the 12 are special witnesses to Christ?

The thing I have always thought, is if you have a problem with a "higher" issue, you had better check the foundation of your beliefs. If you know hold the plain and simple truths of the Gospel(COJCOLDS) to be true then think about who is really wanting you to have a problem with the issue you are struggling with. Most people who fall away from the church don't utilize that opportunity.

So Cal, IF evidence of the BOM surfaced, or was discovered , would it in fact give the BOM enough weight. Would it in fact start to tie the BOM to the Bible? The thing about most "other" peoples religious interpertation of the Bible(whether they like to admit it or not) is that it is based upon a concept that was derived MANY years after the death of the Apostles. There is also no outstanding evidence that the Trinity was the correct interpertation of the Godhead previous to the Council of Nicea. Thus I don't see a strong case on either. What kills me is that the evidence clearly points out that they institutionalized an Imperialistic concept of the Godhead, that in itself shaped "mainstream Christianity" to what it is and was throughout the great apostasy. In which case that scripture has equal weight for both sides. But the fact that there is a BOOK that we possess claiming to be another testament of Jesus Christ and his visit to the americas is pretty difficult to refute.

shan, I don't think that is the point. There are many, many things I personally have no grip on. But I have faith and know with an honest heart that all will be delivered(granted I search with patience) to me if I am in pursuit of righteous things and am adhereing to the standards and principles that the lord has placed before me. He has a plan for us, just because we don't know something, or can't figure it out, doesn't mean we won't come to an understanding of it. Some things I believe the Lord wants us to learn beyond the vail, because for human interpertation it would destroy our ability to comprehend, and our faith. What most "Christians" don't do very well is use a great deal of perception. They also think that we believe we can work our way to Heaven, and that we can become greater than God, or supplant him in equalness of ability. So I guess I am not really worried about those that think I am a "holier than thou" person. That is a very hasty judgement executed with a hard heart. I personally like learning as if I am a little child, precept upon precept. So maybe that is why when I teach or expound I come across like that, but in no way am I self-righteous in that sense.

No. The CoJCoLDS comes across as a "works" program. When I say a "clear presentation"... then I mean that the person has a clear understanding of sin, the consequences of sin, and the blessed hope of eternal life through Christ. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the good news that "Jesus Saves!" Salvation is a process, being saved is only one part of the process and is not contengent upon any "work" or "work in progess". ~serapha~ So once faith is established, it is undestroyably within that person and can never dwindle right? Because if faith is not eternal, one cannot be saved till faith is perfected. Therefore longsuffering in your faith to the very end is required for salvation, and upon works we are judged. Mainstreamers idea of Faith saves you the instant you have routine doesn't work. We don't think we can WORK ourselves to heaven. Quite the opposite, we believe faith MUST be longsuffering and persistant through our trials. Then when we stand before God if our faith is sufficient we will recieve judgement based on our works. All will have immortal bodies(except for those who deny the Holy Ghost with a perfect knowledge of Christ). Not all will have Eternal Life. One question,(to all the MC's in here) how do you feel God is glorified?

Nice try, but semantics you are using are quite worn out by the anti-mormon crowd.

One thing you have to remember is that our temporal comprehension is subject to emotions and desires(some anyway) that are not Godly. We are here to concquer that which will not bring us Eternal Life. We do not know the feeling of being on the other side of the vail and being able to comprehend all in a perfect light. I personally as a male am not down with the whole polygamy thing. I only want one lady. But God may have different plans. If we believe that God has the answers and loves us, then questioning what he has laid before us only delays our ability to know him better. One thing also to note is that Polygamy in this day and age has created a horribly messed up power control issue. Fathers of Polygamous(is that even a word?) families are controlling, abusive, and downright scary. Granted this is not a generalization. But the ones I have seen and heard are right smack dab in the middle of unrighteous dominion. My family has also been around since the Church started, but I don't personally think that has anything to do with issues of the church and our acceptance of them.

And what is sad and utterly pathetic, is that ALL mainstreamers I know think we don't believe this.

One, I was responding to your sarcasm and over-analytical assumption with the same as much. I have been around that "different universe". Nothing impressive. Sorry. If there is a God, and this IS his true church, then isn't it what he says giving us the law by which we shall recieve exaltation??? Can any one human concept or exhibition transcend God? First and foremost, if yes, then you shouldn't be LDS, much less Christian. If NO, then clearly the pursuit of education, intelligence, and enlightenment should be subject to a righteous predisposition(on our part). Cultivated in the garden of righteousness. If historical evidence can lead you away from the church, and you will submit yourself to the possibility that our church isn't true, then why are you LDS? I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is no evidence on earth, no amount of endless reasoning that can derail the church or prove it to be a fallacious organization. This IS God's ONE TRUE CHURCH ON EARTH.

So, I think there is also something that TS brought up that intrigues me in Romans 8. It talks about "to be carnally minded is death." From what I can see, there is "word of wisdom" in Christianity. I see Catholic bishops smoking and drinking all the time, and I see many a christian on survey list themselves as smokers and social drinkers. So how could Mainstream Christianity be God's church if one, they do not have a united policy like the word of wisdom, and B there aren't repentance processes for those who divulge themselves in such carnally minded things. Also, being as though I have been told that I have to believe in the Nicene Creed to be a Christian, would the fact that Constantine was an Imperalistic, blood-thirsty, dictator have any effect on such phylosophy such as the Trinity seeing as how Constatine clearly oversaw and influenced the whole thing? Sorry it is off the subject a little, but just a thought that popped into my head.

So he is another thing I can't quite get my tiny mind around... Correct me if I am mistaken but you (you're still Mormon right) align yourself religiously with the Evangelical perspective. Right? Essentially ya'll believe that the church of God consist of all denominations that accept certain doctrines and principles and that all Christians who accept Christ as their Savior are saved and belong to the body of Christ or his church. Is that essentially correct? If so, how do you reconcile that your own church or parts of your own church (other saved Christians) think that homosexuality is perfectly alright and ordain homosexuals to be bishops or priests or whatever? If this was directed toward me, I was not agreeing with the metaphysical form of God that Stephen presented, but the issue of Homosexuality in the Ministry.

What?? Join on historical grounds??? Why? I can prove that a man named Jesus walked the earth, but only the Holy Ghost can confirm that he is the son of God and heir to all that was created through him. I can prove that the Bible gives reference to Gospel doctrine, but it's only a "legit Gospel" if Jesus Christ is actually the SON OF GOD! The fact that you insinuate that the BOM "could" be false makes me wonder about you Cal. You can't ride the fence either you believe or don't.

**sigh** another multiple account holder. Is that being honest? Well, I can relate. ~serapha~ This is the INTERNET, Serapha, multiple identities are to be expected. Besides, elderbell had to have two because his first one was banned. Ammon, I don't use multiple accounts. I just stand behind the one I have. I have a conscience. The Holy Spirit would tell me that using multiple accounts wasn't right, particularly when the site says... no multiple accounts. Don't you have respect for the rules of a forum.... just like the laws of the land? How about Romans 13 and 2 Peter 2 where you are told to submit to the governing authorities.... that doesn't apply to you? ~serapha~ One, keep that double edged sword in it's sheeth, because you "mainstreamers" hardly keep your OWN rules. Secondly, Snow....you berry funny!!!! Also, is banning someone for proclaiming the one TRUE gospel honest...think not.

Yeah, again, why I obey. Exaltation, to be glorified like my Father in Heaven. Adam himself has a pretty famous quote about obedience. The man upstairs has laws sent down to us because the laws we follow(with our heart as well as action) dictate the level at which we will be placed upon judgement. That and I tend to lay off scrutinizing things that are set before, when they are placed there by the Big Man that created me. Also, again, GED is just a formality. Doesn't signify my education level. Just so I look qualified on a piece of paper. My not graduating had nothing to do with academics, but with intent. Nonetheless, I digress. Plus, I have studied college material and converse with many a college student. While college is in the plans, it is not a different universe than I thought. I was also very successful at small business before I left to the MTC, so I don't feel that I am behind in any way.

Hey Ammon. This is elderbell and mormonsoldia, how are things on CF, I stopped going there and Serapha coming in here reminded me why. CF doesn't want to clear up issues about Mormonism. Wouldn't you agree. They have this front with them that says come in, share with, teach us about your religion, we are so eager to hear what you have to say. Course, then you fall for it, and once you are in, it's like fighting off a pack of ravenous wolves with a piece of raw meat strapped to your face. I am gonna check christianity.com out sometime, what's the atmosphere over there? Good to hear from you elderbell. I wondered where you went. www.christianforums.com has no intention of having an objective discussion, but that is why I stay... so many fence-sitters and investigators read those posts. We need to set the record straight. www.christianity.com is even more restrictive than www.christianforums.com about what we can say regarding the Church. It's been a real challenge to stay unbanned over there (been banned and reinstated once already), but the message must go forth. P.S. I would sure appreciate some help from other LDS members (hint, hint). I know it isn't fun, but I believe it is necessary. And help does not mean trolling. I try to be sincere and level-headed. Wow, I went onto christianity.com. I'm sorry, but that is an EVIL, spiteful place. Once I got done reading the perspective they have on Mormonism, and what their "version" of Christianity is, it felt like someone took a dump truck and plopped a load of mud on me. Once question I have for all mainstreamers though: What was the purpose of the Nicene Creed and the "redefinition" of the Gospel through phylisophical council(made up of mainly Greek Phils.), in which was heavily directed and influenced by a blood-thirsty, post-pagen, and Imperialistic Constantine? So that is who God called to "build up" Christianity huh. It clearly states also that along with Baptism, comfirmation by the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost was needed. Again a million holes in Constantine Christianity, but oh well.

So he is another thing I can't quite get my tiny mind around... Correct me if I am mistaken but you (you're still Mormon right) align yourself religiously with the Evangelical perspective. Right? Essentially ya'll believe that the church of God consist of all denominations that accept certain doctrines and principles and that all Christians who accept Christ as their Savior are saved and belong to the body of Christ or his church. Is that essentially correct? If so, how do you reconcile that your own church or parts of your own church (other saved Christians) think that homosexuality is perfectly alright and ordain homosexuals to be bishops or priests or whatever? Berry Good question.

Yes, I agree that could be the case. Judging people is all about perception. My husband may perceive things in people that may not be true. I do disagree with his assessment. His brother (the new Branch president) is a sweetheart and I do not believe he has that "holier-than-thou" attitude. Now I have a SIL that might be one of those types though. I wouldn't say that my husband is one of those lustful people. Although he still has the "hots" for me. M. I wasn't refering to you Maureen. Or your husband. I am refering to those that I have come in contact with. On judgement, I think there are two kinds. One, you must have good judgement, but not take it too far into displacing ones position as secondary. At the same time, if one has exaltation(or is striving for it), and the other does not, doesn't one of the two have a greater light about them?(Not that we have to rub people's faces in it.)

Dude, You need to starting thinking about your future. I have started thinking about your future and this is what I see: A 33 year old, divorce, estranged for his kids, drinking too much, pregnant girlfriend. Lighten up a bit. One I would never touch the alcihol, because there is alcoholism and addiction in my family tree. Second, all I am saying, is why can't we as Mormons just be allowed to be happy and Joyous in our position. Once someone sees us going to church, spreading the word, and trying to rid our loves of our sin-nature, they instantly go to the, "well they think they are better than everybody else" shpiel. What's funny is the only people I have ever heard that from are people that follow after their own selfish lusts, and openly admit they don't care about improving themselves. So in that instance all I am saying is too bad for you then. The only people to be concerned with are the "Sunday Mormons", the ones who portray themselves as decent, clean individuals, but are actually wallowing in all they speak against. Now noone is perfect, granted, but I think discernment is a fairly easy thing to do in this circumstance.

Wow, I'm actually satisfied with that response. Very nice. I completely agree. The reason I ask, is because in our area, a female pastor(who is a flamer) won a case to keep her job. People walked away from that congregation, and of course a great deal stayed. The ones that walked away were made to look like biggots. Very sad. You would make a good Mormon, Stephen. Now tell us where you live so we can kidnap you and brainwash you(j/k)!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHA, ehhh, sensationalism just isn't as entertaining unless Ed, Jerald, or Sandra are doing it.

Hey Ammon. This is elderbell and mormonsoldia, how are things on CF, I stopped going there and Serapha coming in here reminded me why. CF doesn't want to clear up issues about Mormonism. Wouldn't you agree. They have this front with them that says come in, share with, teach us about your religion, we are so eager to hear what you have to say. Course, then you fall for it, and once you are in, it's like fighting off a pack of ravenous wolves with a piece of raw meat strapped to your face. I am gonna check christianity.com out sometime, what's the atmosphere over there?

Are you using the word you as in referring to me or are you using it in a general way? M. I'm sorry for the mix up Maureen, I was speaking about Constantine. Actually to him, we have conversations now and then, he said that after he went to spirit prison he is still waiting for someone to do his Temple work. Not only that, but now he admits he was way off about the whole Christianity thing. But he has a great singles ward in spirit prison, and this week Jimmy Hendrix himself is gonna be the DJ for the tri-stake mixer they are having. I made him promise to take some pics, since I can't be there and all. Got some other business to attend to this weekend. He has been eyeing this hot little number from Laman's crowd, I told him to watch out, they are pretty crazy bunch. HAHAHAHAHA. Just kidding, I already took my meds this morning so there is no way I could have gone Skitzo this early. ROFL! Porter...I think you are around Snow too much.....you are beginning to sound like him...I love it! Me and Snow are actually in reality, very much alike. I just tend to lean more heavily on Gospel standards and revelation then I used to. Once my alter ego jumps out, it's kinda hard to put him back in. Kinda like that Monkeybone movie with Brendan Frasier.

Good Stephen, I am glad to here that response. That is one thing that at least you and I can agree on. Unfortunately, those over at CF, think otherwise, and say that there isn't any proof that the Lord said homosexuality is wrong. So if one does transcend(bad word to use)/bypass laws in the Bible to fullfill a position he is not qualified, what of those who not only associate, but support that ministry? Are they TRUE believers in God and can any good come from that influence. I personally cannot believe such a thing. To me, this is going to bring POLITICS into religion.

Alright, we(LDS) will never agree with MC's as to the metaphysical existance of Jesus Christ. So let me ask you this Stephen. Since you believe in the Bible, and it's teachings, I would like to know this: Paul clearly teaches against Homosexuality, so can one remain in the office of preaching officially to a congregation if he or she is gay(i.e. pastor, priest, bishop...etc.)?

Are you using the word you as in referring to me or are you using it in a general way? M. I'm sorry for the mix up Maureen, I was speaking about Constantine. Actually to him, we have conversations now and then, he said that after he went to spirit prison he is still waiting for someone to do his Temple work. Not only that, but now he admits he was way off about the whole Christianity thing. But he has a great singles ward in spirit prison, and this week Jimmy Hendrix himself is gonna be the DJ for the tri-stake mixer they are having. I made him promise to take some pics, since I can't be there and all. Got some other business to attend to this weekend. He has been eyeing this hot little number from Laman's crowd, I told him to watch out, they are pretty crazy bunch. HAHAHAHAHA. Just kidding, I already took my meds this morning so there is no way I could have gone Skitzo this early.

That's funny, because my family let me choose on my own when I was about 11. Anti-Family huh? Proclamation to the World, FAMILY Home Evening...etc. The mission thing is WAY off. The Temple is the most beautiful thing I have ever experienced. That fact that we strive for worthiness to perform endowments in the Temple for the PURPOSE of Eternal Family should be soul proof of our Pro-Family atmosphere. We DO NOT think we are better than everyone else, we want everybody to have what we do. We wanna share the wealth so to speak. We do, however, want exaltation and to be with our Heavenly Father again. And those who do not wish to accept the same standards as we do are merely throwing themselves into self loathing rather than us being "better" than anybody. In reality, I know many Mainstreamers who have probably led a better life than I have. But I Do feel privelaged to have been born into an LDS family. I wouldn't trade it for all the riches and carnal opportunities of the world. So if that is what you call "thinking your better" than someone else, I guess I am. But that is your problem, not mine. I actually love my Family and Church history. I am related to Joseph Smith through Parley P. Pratt, and my great, great, great, grandfather George Benjamin Wallace blessed the Northwest Cornerstone of the Salt Lake Temple. Not to mention, 6 Apostles were ordained in his home along with various other church officials and meetings of that time. I think it is just the area you live in Maureen, because some of us Mormons are pretty good at our schtick.