porterrockwell

Thanks...I am also happy with that conclusion for now. That is part of patience and longsuffering. As long as you keep your heart open, ready to recieve the truth, whatever it may be, when the time comes.

What's it going to be? Two weeks ago you had no idea. I had no idead of any "cold blooded assassin/murderer" named Porter Rockwell, only PR I knew of is one of the early defenders of the Mormon religion. The woman I worked for is about 47 or 48, but she looks 30(beside the point). Anyway, she is a Pratt(maiden name) so she is very entrenched in church history. As am I(my mothers maiden name is Smith), so she was refering to me reminding her of PR, because I can be a tad bit aggressive in defense of the things I hold true. That and before I decided to go on a mission I was a little confrontational. Nonetheless, I do not think the church would allow the tag "Man of God" to be published and sold in connection with the Mormon culture if it were not true. I also do not trust a media and society that ridiculed us, tared and feathered us, and sent a death order on our heads for just being. If I would have been alive during the time of Joseph Smith I would have rode along side PR.

I'm adding my 2cents to this thread: OPR murdered Lieutenant Frank Worrell of the Carthage Greys. One of the men acquitted of the murder of JS and Hyrum Smith. After the acquittals mayhem ensued between the Mormons and Gentiles (anti-Mormons). Several Mormon settlements were reduced to cinders. The county sheriff, Jacob Backenstos, was having problems raising a posse to capture marauders. He was accused of siding with the Mormons. Friends warned him about a plot against his life. The morning of Sept. 16, 1845, Backenstos drove his carriage to Carthage. From the book Orrin Porter Rockwell: Man of God / Son of Thunder (pp 138-139) it reads: Lieutenant Frank Worrell of the Carthage Greys was flanked by two companions as he nudged his horse along the Warsaw road on the morning of September 16. Behind the three riders came five other men in a light rig and a two-horse wagon containing rifles. As they approached the Nauvoo road, Worrell pointed to a carriage nearing the crossroads in front of them. "It's that damn Backenstos," he shouted, spurring forward. Backenstos had been eyeing the riders closely as they drew nearer, and when the lead horseman suddenly slapped his mount to a gallop, the sheriff laid on the whip and urged his own animal to top speed. Having the advantage of a two-hundred-yard lead, Backenstos disappeared over the brow of a hill before the rider could overtake him. As it happened Rockwell and another Mormon, Return Jackson Redden, were watering their horses near a railroad siding when they spotted Backenstos charging straight at them. His pursuers were still out of sight beyond the rise. Rockwell and Redden, who had been assisting burned-out Mormon families in moving their possessions, sensed trouble and reached for their guns. The sheriff pulled hard on the reins and jerked to a stop in a cloud of dust. Backenstos sputtered in his haste to get the words out; he ordered the two Mormons to protect him "in the name of the state of Illinois, County of Hancock," from the "mob" at his heels. "Don't worry," Rockwell said, "We've got our pistols and two rifles." No sooner had he spoken than two horsemen appeared on the crest of the hill and raced down on them. Worrell was well ahead of the closest man; the other had been thrown when his horse stumbled. Once the two were within hailing distance the sheriff shouted an order to stop. In answer, Worrell reached for his pistol. Before he could bring the gun to bear, a ball from Rockwell's rifle tore into his abdomen and catapulted Worrell from the saddle. At the sound of the shot the second rider frantically wheeled his horse and galloped to the wagon and buggy now arriving on the scene. The men gazed in disbelief at Worrell's crumpled form on the ground. Under Rockwell's cold gaze they gathered up their wounded leader and carried him to the wagon; he died before they reached Warsaw. Footnotes show Peter Wilson Conover, "Autobiography," MS, p. 20; Gregg, History of Hancock County, pp. 340-341. At the watering hole there were witnesses who gave testimonoy at the sheriff's trial for murder. Eventually around May 1846, OPR was arrested for the murrder of Frank Worrell. OPR: Man of God / Son of Thunder (pp 146-149) reads: But his capture was in fact a carefully hatched plan to temporarily divert the attention of the anti-Mormon party and gain precious time for the Saints. Because Backenstos was prepared to testify that he had ordered Rockwell to shoot Worrell, church authorities were of the opinion that an impartail jury would not return a guilty verdict. Rockwell had agreed to face trial on first-degree murder charges, but the plan involved obtaining a change of venue to a court more favorable to the Saints.....Ultimately, the request for a change of venue to Galena, one hundred and fifty miles to the north in Daviess County , was granted - and not a moment too soon. A grand jury handed down an indictment against Rockwell by the first of June and ordered him to appear for trial the following month. Babbitt, after relieving his client of a gold watch as a fee for his services, subpoenaed his star witness, Sheriff Backenstos, and Rockwell was promptly freed. M. he was ordered by an officer of the law to protect him and then shot a man who was charging them AND drawing his weapon. This is murder to you? I don't think it is a matter of whether or not this is the whole story of OPR. The simple fact a story such as this one could be scewed to make Orin Porter Rockwell appear to be a murderer in the eyes of a "court" for means of conviction, is nothing more than petty defimation. From that alone I am weary to believe the "outer layer" of any claim against OPR. And yes I do know about him, "Porter Rockwell" is my nickname. The woman I work for in our ward said I remind her of him.

From what I can read, of course he is going to made out to be a murderer. The fact is he defended the early Mormons that took aggregious assault from various parties. It's never fun when someone on the defense has the ability to protect and detear is it! I do not believe that the Church would stand behind Orin Porter Rockwell had he been a cold-blooded assassin. I thoroughly believe that he was a "Destroying Angel", one that held the opposition of Mormonism from overtaking what meager beginnings we had. Joseph Smith held him as a close and dear friend. PR reminds me of Joshua, minus the whole prophet thing. Joseph Smith also recieved revelation about PR, he said(in short)"As long as you faith is strong in the Lord, you will never fear your enemies." And I don't think he ever did.

A few things I'd like to ask;1- The bible says God is love. Do you often have people, who say they love you, refuse to speak to you just to test your loyalty? 2- Why do you defend the mormon church when you are unsure of it yourself? You appear to be trying to take everybody's side. There is more than one way to answer a prayer. Are you humble and willing to accept the answer, even if it contradicts and goes against everything you are used to? Also, again, Cal can't stand that metaphor because you can't turn around and "look", that is the whole point of faith, longsuffering, and kinda what this mortal probation is about. Tao, doing fine Bro. One thing I am learning, is be the best person you can be, and when the Lord is ready for you to know the truth it will happen.

What I meant by that, is that you and others will take the most spiritual endeavors of faith and priesthood and come up with some coincendental reasoning behind the situation. It was not to imply that you are in someway a PIG, or a swine. It is actual quite metaphorical and NOT intended as an insult.

I have a patriarchal blessing and a commandment from the prophet. That is all I need. "I'll go where you want me to go Dear Lord, over mountain, or plain, or sea. I'll do what you want me to do Dear Lord, I'll be what you want me to be." That is a very inspirational chorus from a hymn that speaks volumes of dedication not to what I want, but what the Lord wants, even when I don't feel like doing his Will. Also, so I am not the only one that felt like I had committed every sin in that book after reading it...even though I hadn't. Also, it made the smallest infraction seem like something I needed to talk to my bishop about. Anyway.

I find it funny that JS was also jailed heavily, and brought up on false charges a lot at that time. Let's not forget that at the time the Church was just getting started, people were hunting us down. No one likes to bring up how much hatred and opposition to FREEDOM, there was at that point. We even had a death order sent out on our heads. Orin Porter Rockwell along with other "spotlighted" mormon figures took a great deal of strife JUST because they were Mormon. Until a prophet of the Church says otherwise, and as long as JS's writings maintain it. PR is ok in my book. One thing is, none of us were there. And if I were to believe everything(or even half) of what was written about Mormons at that time(including JS) then JS would have to be a crackpot with an imagination far from anything religious. Sorry Snow, just don't buy it.

I'm glad you know me so well. Actually I do have goals, and first and foremost is return to my Heavenly Father. Celestial Glory, Eternal Life, Exaltation....any of those ring a bell. I think the real question is am I hitting this too hard, or are you slackin at the wheel on your end? The Church does make me happy, it is the only time when I do feel happy. Anytime I disobediently step outside of my conviction, I feel dark and horrible. Peter said something of the same respect to Jesus as he was headed for what would be his crucifixion. You know what Jesus he said to him...."Get behind me Satan".Anyway, as I have stated a million times, this forum does not portray anything but my spiritual conviction. Nothing more, nothing less. Too hasty to judge my friend. I didn't come on here to display my whole life, but to discuss doctrine and principle. But since you feel that the church doesn't make me happy, I'll give you a taste of what MY WHOLE LIFE, is like. I play paintball, for a team that is working out sponsorship so that we can begin tourny play. Last year I kept the local paintball store from going under. It had been robbed of about 6,000 dollars in product and noone new the place had reopened. I re-established clientel, and within a month, I was making 600 dollars in 2 hours on Saturdays(as opposed to Zero). Unfortunately the owner didn't pay the bills, and lied to everyone instead of trying to liquidate, so it closed down and I had no chance to turn that thing into gold mine. I love sports been watching them since I was able to open my eyes. I have been know to have one earphone with sports radio going, while watching ESPN, reading SI, and playing XBOX sports games(Don't think it can be done, come watch me some time and you will be amazed). Been a fan of Gonzaga since 1995. Huge Sonic/Hawk/M's fan. Love Seattle, my favorite evening is just walking through downtown Seattle and hanging out with friends. Recently helped the newest of Paintball stores get on it's feet in place of the old one. Also did all this, plus the other "resurgance" for FREE! Really into business, read every major financial rag including the WSJ. Love kids, half of my jobs in my life have been with toddlers and youth and teen. Love the scriptures try to read at least 20 pages of both the BOM and the BIBLE a day. Celestial Room of the Temple is the most amazing place I have ever been, would never concern myself with things that would keep me from having that opportunity. If I was closer I would go to the Temple every morning. That is just a little piece of my life. I would write more, but I am sure there is a character limit. But as I have reiterated. I don't come on here save it be to discuss prinicple and doctrine.

Ahhh, you have to ask why is it hard? It was hard for me because I was a stupid teenage who didn't care enough about the Gospel or going on a mission. Bro. T's style of teaching spoke right to my core, woke me up, and now all I can think about is being in the spiritual atmosphere that is part of the mission. Everything is quickened there, inspiration...it is beyond words. I personally love it. It wasn't killing me either, I actually had 2 ear infections, 1 sinus infection, an anxiety attack, sleeping 3 hours a night, and a few other things. So once those are fixed and set straight, I don't think it will the SAME uphill battle.

LOL...so we won't bring up the food at the MTC.... but most of the elders will. Ok, let's just drop the MTC thing, my bad. But yes the food is HORRIBLE. EHhhhh..too many starches. I lost like 14 pounds my 2nd week in the MTC just from not eating the bad foods. Anyway, Cal, while educations and careers are important they are not my #1 goal. I want to serve the Lord, I have recieved confirmation that it is what I am supposed to return. It's funny, my patriarchal blessing speaks in very great detail about this specific situation, and I didn't notice it until I was in the situation, and the revelation was needed. That's a testimony right there. Also, you need to understand that, one, the Lord must try us. Plus, it isn't making me miserable. I love opposition now, it makes me stronger(provided I am righteously fighting through it), it gives me new perspective. I would not want step off the chosen path to Eternal LIfe just because it got a little uphill every now and then. And as far as the rest of my life goes, I have been very tempted to get a business loan and open up shop here in Lacey instead of returning. And even though I would have success and be able to go to night school at the same time and setup a foundation for a family(which I also am dying to have), I want to share the Gospel and serve the Lord. If you know your calling and you step away from it for some reason YOU have control over then that is definately something that is disobedient and regretable. Sorry, I don't want to miss out on the experience and those things which I have yet to learn from them. Plus, it will make me a better Father, brother, and son. Here is a scripture that I learned in like under 10 minutes my first day at the MTC...Mosiah 3:19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been since the fall of Adam, and will be forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the antonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his Father. That is life in a nutshell. Without pressure and opposition he would not be able to mold us in his image.

Porter, I have to say BULL. When I went through the MTC we got up at, oh say, before the crack of dawn, and worked our tails off until, oh say, the minute we went to sleep. What part of the bar do you think is higher? Do the missionaries of today know the scriptures better, understand the gospel more, enjoy a closer relationship to the spirit? Do they expend more intellectual and spiritual energy? How much more? Seven? I got news for you. I never gave a memorized discussion in my life and I have given thousands. There are people on this board that can put your average missionary to shame in scripture knowledge and they got their base of knowledge on their mission. Don't forget, I know missionaries, I talk to them every week. They come to my house. I see first hand how prepared they are. Generally speaking, there is a dumbing down in the Church today. I assume that carries over to the mission field. It is, perhaps, a natural result of the Church operating on a global front and a need to communicate to the common denominator level of the members. The Brethern of years gone by were intellectual giants. Compare Widstoe or Talmage or Orson Whitney to whoever sets the tone for theological insight today and tell me about the bar being raised. Neil Maxwell is not B.H. Roberts. Know who wrote the Priesthood manual when I was a kid? Nibley. It will be a chilly afternoon in gehenna before that day comes again. When I say raised the bar, I am also talking about standards that were lived by the missionary previous to the mission field. Also, I don't know anywhere near the scriptural support that you or anyone on this board most likely so I am not going to argue that one. But I was in an AP meeting with kids who were rattling off scriptural references left and right. And I must say, it was quite impressive. In fact I truly wish I had that ability to the extent they do. But I also learned a long time ago how to teach with the spirit. If someone can't feel the spirit or accept that spirit, as even on here, scriptural support is mute. I am also not saying "raising the bar" means that we are better missionaries or that those before couldn't stack up. But they have raised standards on those who want to go. I know a great deal of people, even in my own stake, that would not be going had they waited 4-6 more months. I am also not ACCUSING you or trying to MAKE YOU sound inferior. Take this for instance, when my dad went on his mission, he was only in a mission home for 5 days before being shipped out, obviously he would be able to fullfill the expectations of missionaries of this new generation. But the standards and expectations were infact raised. And for kids who are just entering, they don't know the contrast between past and present. So their exposure to such a strong spirit weeds out those who just don't have the desire to be there. And I don't know how one could fight the feeling of guilt that comes from unworthiness, I personally wouldn't even be concerned with who I let down. That feeling makes me squirm, and it is the most condemning, horrific feeling in the world. So again, that is another thing I can't understand that maybe I would like to. I guess it is my perspective, I have one person that I don't want to dissappoint, and that's the Lord. If I take the neccessary steps to repentance and turn things around(provided I have done something wrong), and my family is dissapointed in me and holds it against me. That is there problem, because once you repent, the Lord forgets about it and you move on. So again, my perspective is just a little more Eternal.

Holy Canolli, You mean when I was there we didn't "use the spirit" like you new-fangled, young whipper-snappers? Gadzooks! Imagine my shame. Snow, I wasn't saying that at all. I am not questioning anyones ability. I know it has ALWAYS been a bootcamp. But it is different. Every missionary I have talked to since being home has said that the transition into the new system was definately difficult to adjust to. And every teacher that taught us in the MTC stated very clearly that the new standards and expectations are much higher and much more difficult than that of the previous. That being said, I am not saying that a great deal of missionaries pre-outline days wouldn't have the same success. I am merely showing that it is a raised bar. It will most likely go up again(as it has done a few times), and in that time young LDS will be expected to be even more virtuous than this generation. I would never suggest that one didn't need the spirit previous to the transition. As far as Cal goes, is an ulcer, or a calas(???), or even cancer that horrible when considering what we have the opportunity to attain in Celestial Glory. By your theory if God exists, why let bad things happen. Opposition BRO! Without opposition the the Plan of Salvation would be frustrated.

Actually, you missed the whole point BRO! The kid WAS GOING to have brain damage. The doctors were right, but the blessing healed that baby, and the doctors were stumped, they couldn't figure it out. Unfortunately, you are not here to learn, nor to believe, which is very disheartening, because that was a touching story. And a true one. I also have story about one of my close friends who broke his back in a football game and was very close to some serious problems immediately following the incident that night. But I dare not cast pearls before swine.

First off, being physically killed does not mean that he was conquered. Joseph Smith was needed to set forth the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He served the Lord well and was needed greatly by our Heavenly Father beyond the vail. Ever heard "he who shall lose his life, shall find it again in me"(roughly speaking). Joseph Smith stood in the face of a mob and did not denounce his work, nor the Glory of God. No man in the History of this earth has done more for the salvation of Mankind save it be Jesus Christ.

Sorry Cal, your logic confuses me. I think a great deal of the time, that receiving confirmation is a process. We can't always get it right when we ask. Sometimes the Lord must try us in our longsuffering so that we will appreciate the answer when it is given. I don't question the when, or how I get the answer, I believe that the Lord will impress upon me that which I ask and am expedient to receive. I just think about it as, it is His will. When HE feels it neccessary for me to know something, and I seek, I recieve. I don't think it's that you didn't pray hard enough, longsuffering and patience are the key to enduring. I think that process gives us that which is needed to understand and embrace our answer. We never know however, sometimes you get the answer right away. It's all about what the BIG MAN upstairs is down with.

I'll agree with you there. Christianity that is totally based on faith, and not on self-improvement, is basically expecting a free ride to Heaven. If there is a God, I like to think that we will be judged depending on how we lived our lives...not just our actions, but also our thoughts. And I hope that we will not be judged on what doctrines we believed in. If we were judged completely on faith, then Heaven would have faithful believers there...but it would also be full of lazy people (those who wanted a free ride) and gullible people (those who believed the Gospel because they just believe everything they are told by their parents, bishop, etc.). Meanwhile, good, rational people are in Hell. A fair God would not do this. That first statement about "totally based on faith" and a "free ride to heaven" is music to my ears. Very well put. I also agree with your second statement. Noone should do something without conviction or desire. Absolutely. There is a person who is absolutely one of the most important people in my life. His name is Bro. T(Thompson). Big Ol' Oklahoma boy(about 50). He was my sunday school teacher for about 3 or 4 years. The first sunday he came in he said, "Im not gonna use much of the manual, and I don't make a ton of scriptural reference." That first of all had everyone perked up and on the edge of there seats ready to hear more. Next he said,"Unlike most teachers, and some of your parents are gonna get offended when they hear this, but if you don't want to be here, I don't want to see you hear. If you feel you have something you feel is more worth your time, you should be out doing that then sitting in church" I have never seen that many eyes widen and jaws drop before in one room. "I am also not here to tell you what you can and can't do, if you think you need to do something, then you should do it." Again, all dumbfounded...I think the sentiment was,"Is he for real?" "While I'm not gonna tell you what to do, I am gonna tell you what the consequences are of doing those things, so that you can discern for yourself." Pretty powerful teacher if you ask me! And while I don't believe you should do something JUST because someone tells you to. Once you know the source of that instruction is of absolute truth and authority(from GOD), there is no reason to stray from the enticings of that council. Which is kind of at the point where personally I am now. I also don't believe that Mainstream Christian's perception, or concept of hell is right on. Unless you for some reason deny the God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost having perfect knowledge of them, all will have immortality. Even those truly wicked will dwell in some form of paradise(telestial kingdom). Outer Darkness is reserved for those who truly forsake their 2nd estate. and OD is still a very hair topic, because I don't believe very many will have the opportunity to be a special witness to Christ.

I'm glad you agree with me on this...I was a bit concerned about your line of thinking. The problem is in recognizing the truth when it is presented to us. Stories of mythical proportions involving miracles and deities can be hard to swallow, when one is very scientific in their thinking. I think God wants us to be logical...but the catch is that to believe in Him, we must abandon logic to some degree, and just choose to believe. When given so many options for religion, how can I choose...how can I know which one is the truth? I know the standard answer is "sincere prayer". But it doesn't seem to work for everyone. I personally allow logic to coincide with the Holy Ghost, that way discernment is clear and directive instead of confusing. I agree as well about recognizing truth, I am not saying that once you have read it you HAVE to accept it. Again, I am just around so many that know the truth, but want to have the truth and still indulge themselves. That is what I am refering to. Plus, as I have said many times, I don't struggle with the truth, or the spirit. I have been blessed with the ability to discern. I KNOW when I do something wrong, when I am being rebellious, when I am playing semantics to justify my own personal desire or reasoning. So I guess what would help me is to understand the perspective of those on the other end of the spectrum.

Is that a fact? Are you speaking from experience? I have been in the MTC, and have been on many missionary outings. So yes, from experience. Unless you believe otherwise? Well Cal, they have raised the bar. It is boot camp in there. And I studied 4 hours a day, hard, before coming to the MTC. I read the BOM, D&C, PoGP, Miracle of Forgiveness, Tools for a Missionary, and a few other Church books all in about a month before going into the MTC, and it was still on a whole other. Not only that, but it is not memorizing anymore, it's all about YOU constructing outlines based on your ability to study and use the spirit. I'm sure there are those who still do go for the reasons you stated. But my point is, 2 years is a long, hard process if you are not wrapped up in the work. So at least from what I found, at least for the standards they have now, very few that are actual unworthy and/or don't want to be there end up making it through the MTC, and 2 years. I personally have experienced a great deal of Godly sorrow, and it is the worst feeling in the world. It's like someone dumped gasoline on your soul and lit a match. Unquenchable fire is an understatement.

Salvation or Exaltation is another story (if you are Christian, Christ is required for these things). But it is a misconception that everyone who does not believe in the LDS Gospel...or those who leave the Church...are living lives of carnal lust. I agree, in fact, there are people outside the Church who when compared to myself would make me look like a spiritual sive. If that is the way I come across, I do apologize. However, those whom I have come to know that are "Christian" do not have regard for morals or righteousness, they see God as a get out jail free card. But we can only truly utilize the atonement when we are working for that which will perfect us. Which is Christ in our countenance.

are you sure? Yes, deep down in my heart of hearts, I would have to say that I have carnally lusted after many a pretty broad... as well as quite a few cultured young lasses... As have many, including myself. But that is why we have the atonement. I don't know where I would be without sacrament. The opportunity to renew baptismal covenants and pursue the straight and narrow is so awesome, I just don't want those who are without it, who are seeking it, to go without. I agree that one can still be righteous without the church, but in order to fullfill all righteousness, one must when given the truth accept it. I just see so many people that DO believe, yet fall away because they percieve it to be an overwhelming task. Those in this mentality that I am most adament with.

my email address is [email protected]

"Sex" outside the bonds of marriage is base and carnally minded. Carnal lust is that which is in opposition to Eternal. Celestial law doesn't require us to be celebit(not spelled right) monks, it only gives us the path by which we shall have Eternal Life. Happiness of the flesh is not what we are here for. If happiness of the flesh is all you are after, then hard work isn't good, anything that causes pain isn't good. Using the flesh as a barometer by which you live your life is foolish. What if raping someone makes that person feel happy, or doing heroin. What if slitting someones wrists and then seeing how much they can bleed before they call 911 is making them happy. You can't DESIRE to live by some of one law, and a little of the other. For no man can serve two masters. i don't think it was as wise to say that Scott has chosen not have Christ in his life. But he said very clearly,"Don't think it is you who have chosen me, for it is I who have chosen you".(not verbatum)

The story is kind of vague in my mind, but there is family in the ward who has a son who has two kids. His first kid while still in the womb had a condition where there was water in her brain or something to that extent. Anyway, the doctors were pretty much sayin that the kid would be braindead or mentally retarded. But instead, the Father gave his wife a blessing and blessed her and the baby and the child was born wihtout any complication. If that aint a witness I don't know what is.

Hey Snow, would you mind e-mailing me that 53 page summary. You sparked my interest, and I am really interested in what you have written thus far. Or at least giving me the more inspired parts.