porterrockwell

I still think that the most damning evidence against the Early Christian Church(the one developed by Constantine), is that it reverted to the "UNKOWN GOD" style of deification that was rendered untruthful by Paul previous to that of the Council Nicea(if I am correct a few hundred years or so). Yet people continue to insist that they have the truth, even though their truth bares paganistic influence and was constructed upon the basis of Greek Philsosophy. What I find to be funny, is that the classification of the "holy men" was derived from Constantine's ethical drive. In which, actual "holy men" were merely those who would side with his vision of Christianity. Also, was not Constantine Christianity installed as Imperialistic institution and run on such basis? Hmmm, sounds like you are taking the CHOICE, or otherwise known as AGENCY, out of things. Also, Paul describes seeing Jesus Christ as "above the brightness of the sun". Now I know I have heard that somewhere before. And I believe multiple prophets of olden days(previous to that of the Great Apostasy) had heard God the FATHER say "This is my beloved SON-hear him". Again, sounds way familiar....hmmm. Oh, Good that be our boy Joseph Smith, who also had as such in his first vision. So if Joseph Smith were plagarizing, as most anti's and Non-members will say, what is to say all after the first to utter such things were not of the same such habit. I don't know, to me, these things have always been subconcious, but now that I am reviewing everything, my testimony is starting to grow.

Oh Stephen, No one hates you. I just think you are silly sometimes; my opinion that you are silly not withstanding, this is a nice post. I have a question for you however. In as much as you say that Christ, who has a physical and resurrected body, is immutable, how do you explain that he is omnipresent? Who Jesus Christ is happens to be his spirit that dwells within him.........even when he was crucified on the cross of Calvary .......Jesus Christ still lived on........his spirit was clothed with a body of flesh and bones and when he was killed his spirit left his body and when he was resurrected his spirit re-united with his physical. The spirit of Jesus Christ permeates all things. The Bible even makes reference to the fact that the spirit of Christ lights every man that comes into the world. I believe that what we commonly refer to as a conscience is actually Jesus Christ's spirit lighting every person that comes into the world that they may know good from evil. So, does he now have a physical body? He is trying to have both. Hey Stevo, that is why we have the Holy Ghost. God the Father AND Jesus Christ are two SEPERATE PERSONAGES.

Um, Faith is from the heart bro. Faith MUST be longsuffering and patient. You aren't "saved" the minute you first develop faith. Where then is patience and longsuffering? Why then must we continue with a mortal probation? Don't buy it. ALL will be immortal, but not all will have Eternal Life and dwell with our Heavenly Father and be glorified in the same manner he is. What I found absolutely hilarious, is that we perform baptism as similtude of the Jesus Christ, likened unto him and his sacrifice. We partake of sacrament(catholic, mormon....etc.), likened unto him, yet we cannot become likened unto our Heavenly Father who sent him? Why then must we develop charity in our countenance? Mainstreamer Christianity is really sad!!!!! It totally misses the point on life, I was watching Ermey(from full Metal Jacket) and Chevy Chase in a movie, and they are in this Televangelist chapel, and Ermey is preaching. Then he brings people out, and through an ear piece he is given information on those people to make it seem like he has a gift. After pronouncing their illness he hold's his hand up like Raiden or Sub Zero from Mortal Kombat, and then says something like, BE HEALED!! And slams his hand over the persons forehead as they fall back and two guys drag them off. That is so freakin sad, that is the spectacle that has become of MC. Then Chevy Chase dresses up like a reverend on Ermey's characters "Guest Healer" night, and does the same thing. And what is sad, is that people still believe that crap is real. Anyway, on CF I was raked over coals for suggesting that Constantine had something to do with the Nicene Creed. People wanted evidence, and they were flaming me. It was horrible. Then I am over at a buddy of mines house and he has this "Lost Books of the Bible"(not LDS) that he got from his apartment complex's old, old library. Lo and behold Constantine is in practically every picture of the early Church. Funny that a guy who slaughtered people in Gladiator style functions for not accepting Christianity is responsible for the Nicene Creed UPON WHICH most Mainstream Christianity is based. What I also find funny, is everyone is attacking Joseph Smith's character, when obviously the route of the Earl Christian Church was partisan, and ruthless. And again, Paul preached to those pagan worshippers that diefied an "UNKOWN GOD" that our Father in Heaven is not unkown, yet once the Apostles and the truth left the Earth, Pagan's again spin the simple truths of Christianity around their perception(which was previously equipped by Pagan ritual and Greek Mythology).

Oh Stephen, No one hates you. I just think you are silly sometimes; my opinion that you are silly not withstanding, this is a nice post. I have a question for you however. In as much as you say that Christ, who has a physical and resurrected body, is immutable, how do you explain that he is omnipresent? Snow is on a roll. Put that Six-Shooter away Snow, yur gunna put an eye out!

Amen Snow, I tried that same argument in the CF camp and I got blasted by flamage, conveniently nobody wanted to address the issue. Also, was not Constantine tied in with the Creed? I remember a very old painting of Constantine amid the various philosphers who developed it, and then one more of him presenting it to "God" for his blessing on the piece of garbage. Was it not Paul who preached against the UNKOWN GOD? How can one know God without becoming "familiar" with him? Can you take the derivitive of familiar, which is family, out of familiar and still know something that you are not likened unto. It is a confusing statement and I will elaborate if asked, but it is late and my bedtime is long past.

LOL...they really do make one appreciate this place...and our Christian attitudes towards each other... Yup, yup, yup. That place was just too much, I eventually got out and stayed out because they are as close to Ed Decker and the Tanners as physically possible. I heard the Luciferian concept kicked around. That and they have no regard for Temple issues. Many of the ExMo's talk about Temple ordinances, the name they were givin in the Temple, and mock and ridicule the wearing of garments. Made me sick. Oh well, they can deal with the Big Man when it's there turn.

That is because you would be spinning our doctrine around your own understanding.

I'm pretty sure Decker and the Tanners work independently from one another. Ed Decker may have used information from the Tanners research but personally I doubt it. I think Ed put his own touch into The Godmakers. M. Actually the movie has been broken down, and compared. And other than the "conspiracy-theory"(aka...Deckers touch to the film) it is pretty much the Tanners Shadow or Reality Book cut up move around and seasoned with a few of Ed's own sentiment or phrasing. Which is sad, because while he claims against the Tanners research he continues to use it and promote the products produced from it. The whole point is they both have about as much ground to stand on with their claims as Wile E. Coyote after he has walked off a cliff and is suspended in mid-air, before he plummits to the earth and a million miles an hour. Plus, the only anti's I think even have remote shot at coming across as legit are the Tanners, but even then their Strawman technicques are laughable at best. All they are doing are feeding the lustful sensations of revenge and hatred that come from those who have left the church or have been exed. That isn't a ministry of Christ, sorry not in my book, or in God's. Similar "anti-cult" groups rose up against Christ and his followers, which eventual led to the Great Apostasy.

This is a prime example of why we come across as smug. Because we get ##### #### like this in here who come on a MORMON website, obviously disgruntled about the church. Plus, they expect people to be "curtious" and such while they try to kick our religious teeth in. Very good, you are learning how to use Lucifer's Little Bag of Deminutive Goodies very well, "On sale at a Utah Lighthouse Ministries near YOU!" All I can say is the Anti world is very weak. If you side with the Tanners, then Ed Decker and anyone who has followed over the years holds no water. If you side with Ed, then the Tanners have no ground to stand on. And yet 70% of the God Makers was CUT AND PAST from the Tanners Shadow or Reality book. Huh. Kinda fishy if you ask me. Satan's little minions can't get along, HAHAHAHAHA, well...he'll just have to straighten them out quick. I mean, when he is bound to outer darkness,(and all his pawns...i.e. the Tanners and Decker+his goones) he is gonna get annoyed real quick with having to hear their squabbling at each other for the next millenia.

I tend to put it into this perspective. You have the Ed Deckers of the world, sensationalists...plain as that. Then you have the Tanners of the world. Who while taking a more grounded, educated approach use that same route to construct well thought out strawmen as they do to knock them down. I remember reading an article about several very discrete errors in the Shadow or Reality book they wrote. Of course this would make their whole "argument" against mormonsim totally bunk and unfounded. When confronted about these errors and the judgement made against the church based on them, Jerald's only answer was "It doesn't matter, the point is Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God!" Hmmm...what is sad, is that a great deal of people who claimed to be "Mainstream Christians" on CF, were using many of these tactics to implore their ability to refute our belief. That is what Anti is. Also, we KNOW we have the truth. If you feel we are being smug, then fine. However, we are not a VIP club that only lets certain individuals in. On the contrary, we have no respect of persons policy. It's just hard to be in a world where we are expected not to PROCLAIM the truth. Because if we do, or show our exuberance for possessing the truth we are considered smug, sef-righteous, pompous....and the list goes on. When all we wanna do is include people and help people find the truth. How many churches send out as many missionaries as we do. Don't forget, we pay money to do it. How is that smug? We also believe that we are hear in this probationary state to recieve a remission of our sins through accepting Jesus Christ, and to become as our Father in Heaven, in the same way he is glorified. We should all want to be like Christ, was Christ smug? We aren't judging others exaltation. But we have the truth and we want people to know what the Lord expects of him/her. IF you are feeling that we are judgemental, that is probably your OTHER brother whispering in your ear because he knows just how powerful the TRUE message of Christ is.

Snow, this fool isn't worth it. I'm finally starting to grasp the "elect of God" thing. Maybe this just isn't one of em. And if you are offended or feel that I think I am better than you. Then I pity you. I remember in the Bible it clearly stating that the Gospel will offend those who have hardened their hearts to the truth. Well start getting offended.

One, like I said, I came to the conclusion of OBEDIENCE, freely. I do think for myself and I don't follow "blindly". I do have an education, and just because I didn't graduate doesn't mean I don't have one. I tested in college levels when I was about 12, thus the whole early entry into high school. So the education wasn't the problem, but merely the intent I had. I do have a GED now and am persuing certain business related fields. However, I don't find that relevant. As far as butting heads with my teachers, it was to demonstrate that I am not perfect. I still have to think through things to get myself straightened out. Do you know more than God? Was Jesus Christ not OBEDIENT, did he follow blindly? Do you want exhaltation, or just a seat in the "immortal" category? I could write a book on my thought process that led me to understand OBEDIENCE, but why, for my own personal gain? Just because one has chosen OBEDIENCE does not suggest they are incapable of free thought, remember, to take upon us His yoke, that is what OBEDIENCE is all about. Read Mosiah 3:19, that is what it's all about.

Plain and simple, that is what Satan wants. Take Ed Decker and the Tanners for instance pure slander, sensationalism and strawman tactics. That is all they can do. What is funny, is that if no proof exists, how can one make a claim from either side till sufficient proof is rendered available. So, you must judge through the HG, either it is telling you that it is truly from God, or it is not.

Actually Curvette, I did not choose very early on life. In fact, I put my parents and church leaders through hell the minute my parents gave me complete control over my religious freedom(at 11 years old). I went to a lot of parties, never drank, but did some other things(no sex). I got lazy, didn't graduate from high school(after going in at 13), and saw my life going straight down the crapper because I was "challenging everything I possibly could. In fact I still question authority outside the Church, I am what one would call an "Entrepreneur", not only in business but in the world itself. However, I came to a very sound conclusion that being a Mormon and knowing the truths I do, questioning revelation and standard was going a little too far. I do understand that, and I even butted heads with both my teachers in the MTC on doing outlines. Anyway, the Church is just one place I don't question.

Amen....Classic LIPSERVICE Christian Tactic( this is in response to Snow's last post).

Actually, Serapha, when I went onto CF, I shared my beliefs. And guess what. I think you know but I will reiterate. I got slammed, hardcore. People in mainstream christianity have turned to Ed Decker(and his gang of thugs), along with the Tanners instead of us for the "truth" of Mormon Doctrine. That is what really erks me. Noone wants to know what we believe, they want to know why we don't fess up to the lie they think we are living because they read a pamphlet written by a guy who was exed twice(for reason that are very base and distasteful on his behalf). We don't think of ourselves as a "step above" everyone else. If you read the Articles of Faith you can get the basics of Mormonism. Milk before meat has been scrutinized by people in CF over and over again. With people usually saying, "If I woulda' known the meat upfront I wouldn't a' joined." Sadly these people could accept basic truths, yet stray when something THEY didn't understand set them off...they left and said "It must not be true!" These people are Nomads of religion, the go where their itchy ear can be scratched by the thievery of man's doctrine. For someone who has read the Bible you don't seem to have any grasp on the true physical and spiritual nature of Christ AND our Heavenly Father. Same in nature seperate in being. Also, as for LDS, we don't believe we can earn our way to heaven, that is a stupid presumption made by those drinkin spiritual hatorade. Saved by grace, judged by works(best way I can put it into common speak). Anyway, have fun with your "peeps" at CF, they are not Christians, and the Mormons on that forum take a great deal of strife. I'm out. Also Serapha I have a few Q's in the Bible I would like your perspective on. Not gonna bash your answers, not gonna try to refute them, just simply want your perspective.

They are Calvinists. They are predestined to be "anti"'s! HAHAHAHA!!! I hope everyone else got that, pretty darn funny if you ask me. Nice one.

I have a question Cal. Do you think God is ever wrong...do you even believe he exists? People run around this Earth acting like they can tell God and his standards to "take a hike" and that it won't have any adverse effect on them spiritually in the long run. Just remember, you weren't born as a physical body, you were born as an intelligence and given a physical body for this probationary state. You are subject just like everyone else to human emotion and human error. Try thinking about what Cal the spirit wants, instead of Cal the fallen man. I just see you saying a lot things that make it seem like you dislike the Gospel, and that Gospel came from Jesus Christ.

I didn't say don't look for personal revelation, I agree. What some people don't understand is that your son, may need to have children and be married in the temple to worthy in the Lord's eyes to serve either in the future when he is much older or beyond the vail. I have a feeling it is the latter. I mean seriously, there may be a family that never got to hear the Gospel that lived a great life, followed high standards, and may very well need a shining spirit that followed and succeeded in the Lord's plan to show them the truth of the Gospel. It's just like my counselor said to me "Do you think that if the Lord told you that after all you did to be obedient that you would get sent home for something that was out of your control, you would really have wanted to reach for a mission?" I answered..."Good point!". And it was, I recieved revelation that I NEED to finish this mission, just as your son recieved revelation to get married. He has a plan, and the point is being obedient to his will, noone should question personal revelation. But going off and sinning is not part of his will. In that respect I don't question things. Part of the Lord's will was for your son to get married. So, he followed it, and for that he will be blessed. Plain and Simple...at least to me.

Porter -- I recognize that one size doesn't necessarily fit all, and that we shouldn't expect an answer "right away," and that we must be tested, and that the "fuse" may be longer for some than others. That said, what would you figure to be a reasonable length for the fuse, or a sufficient test? And how much longer than "right away" is it appropriate to wait? Before I went into the MTC, or even got my call, I was in absolute HELL for 2 1/2 months. Everything was working against me, it felt like someone had thrown a black cloud over my head and black blindfold over my spiritual eyes. But I kept on pressing for what I knew was right...my mission. I felt so unworthy for the smallest reasons. Some nights it felt like someone gave me a spiritual gasoline bath and then lit a match. Some nights I would go running at the harder I ran, and prayed...the worse I felt. I was constantly crying inside, asking for a little help, knowing that the Lord had to let me experience this so I could prove to him that I really did want what he wanted. When I got my missionary blessing from my Stake President I felt like a little bit of weight had been dropped from me. Then my father said to me, if you still think you are unworthy, there wouldn't have been that same spirit there had you been unworthy. Things started to fall into place. Then at the MTC, I had come home to deal with some mental and emotional issues. It's all a test, if I want what he wants I will return and serve the people I was meant to touch. That is the way I look at it. I know why I am completely obedient, or at least strive to be. When I was in the MTC I read Moroni 10 a bunch, and everytime I read it, I got more and more excited...like a little kid who had just seen his first christmas. I kept thinking, this is so true, how can one not see this truth that I do. I get such a strong confirmation from, because I think with the Lords help I broke down some of my spiritual barriers that weren't allowing me to see what was meant to be seen.

All I have to say is this. If you know that you were created and given this probationary state by a loving, caring Heavenly Father...one that knew you better than you know yourself. Who loved us so much he even provided us a way back by sacrificing his Only-Begotten to a pack of ravenous wolves of the world. Don't you think the revelation and standards that he sends to us through the prophet is for our own good? I believe that returning that love is being obedient to his call, and not taking for granted the atonement. I believe that the law we live on this Earth will determine(provided we live believing in the Grace of God) our placement in the next life. The Celestial Law prepares us for the Celestial Kingdom, and so on down the line. Knowing all this, why would I really want to be disobedient. Now, I hear all the time, that we who are "staunch" and unquestioning don't think for ourselves. But, did my conclusion to absolute obedience not come from me "thinking" for myself. Granted it was also in harmony with the HG. It's not that I haven't challenged things, but once I know the source of our "standards", I can't see why I would want to walk outside of them. My dream in life is to be as God is, even if I never get my own "planet", or get have billions of spirit babies(although that would be nice), just to live in harmony with his highest law is what I am positive will bring us happiness BEYOND the vail, when physical/mortal agendas will really cease to have importance like they do here. So I tend to ignore temporal "hungers" and focus on what makes my spirit happy. But that is just me.

Agreed, they sound like little Ed Decker and Tanner Clones. Some are sensationalists and the others are somewhat more "educated" in their responses. But nonetheless the same "broken-record" agenda to bashing Mormons. Also, I was kicked off of Christian Forums for saying that the BOM is true, Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, and that we are the one true Church. Mind you I stated this in an UNORTHODOX section of the website. In any case there were about 2 people that I found cordial and inviting, who never really were anything but nice. The others like to slap you in the face, and then warn you about being unchristian like when you slapped back. If you get on there(I was on there for a month), watch out for MagusAlbertus, Der Alter, and the rest of the CF goones.

The Lord knows us better than we know ourselves. Let's not forget that. I'm not saying that he is withholding anything from you. But all of us must be tested to show whether or not we really faithfull. Jesus Christ himself cried out,"Father, why hast thou forsaken me." Jesus Christ, the Son of man, our Redeemer. He also had to be "without" at one moment, when he was bleeding on the Cross. So I don't think it is cruel, nor unusual that some don't get the "answer" right away. If we knew we could get the "answer" right away everytime, then how much of a sacred thing would we really think it to be. I believe a great deal would take it for granted. It's not a one size fits all, that's the point, if it were a "one size fits all", we'ed all get the answer in the same amount of, in the same way. I look at Moroni 10 as "lighting a fuse", some have longer, some have shorter. Some may even have to deal with opposition. Let's say one day you are reading and praying about Moroni 10, the next day a buddy comes over, sees the BOM and starts handing you Anti-Mormon material. You start reading, and now you've got doubts. Would you stave off those doubts to recieve that answer? Whether it be yes or no? The thing I have come to see, is that other Churches produce vehemant propaganda against LDS beliefs. I do not see us circulating pamphlets and movies about the fallacy of other religions. Instead we worry about promoting our truth. That is one thing that always stood out to me.

I'll give you an example. I was reading in the Bible(somewhere in Matthew) a few days ago. I came upon a parable. But before I did, something told me to back and outline the phrases and word groupings that were significant to teaching that Christ was giving to these people. So I did, then as I start to read, he is speaking of a parable, when the parable was finished, I thought, wait...I just outlined exactly what was meant to be said. Then Christ goes on to say that for those who understand need not the parable. Just kinda reassuring, that you get a prompting when it is necessary. Also, if you are looking for scientific proof, you are not ready to believe in God, let alone the Bible. Just because the Bible has been proved to be historically accurate doesn't mean that it has any theological truth. That proof is what the HG is. Reasoning and the HG must equate the same thing for their to be accuracy. That is how discernment is applied, congruancy. If you have no prompting from the HG that the BOM is true, then maybe it is not true. I personally have recieved confirmation that it is true along with a great deal of others. But maybe for you it is not. Nothing wrong with that, just means that you need to find something that you do believe is true.

Amen. Also, comparing crime and disease to Christ is totally naive. Try harder next to come up with something RELATIVE. That's what's funny about Mainstream Christianity. They say no one "demonination" is needed for Salvation, yet you must believe in Christ. So then the issue is not Christ, it is belief, just as long as one holds true to their belief in a Christ-like figure then by that merit they should be saved. So you either have to belong or you don't. You see what I am getting here, can't ride the fence. No man can serve two masters.