Heber13

Well said, skalenfehl. I believe this as well. Good point. Can you tell me what you think is required to "keeping our second estate"? I also think, there wasn't something like Pre-mortal temple work or vicarious work, probably because we didn't need it since we were in God's presence. But the second estate is opened up to what we do on this life...and if necessary, the vicarious work allowing the 2nd estate to continue into the spirit world until the day of judgment. I like that principle our church teaches. It makes it seem more fair to everyone who is born into various circumstances in this world. It makes it less absolute about this mortal experience only. This makes a lot of sense to me, especially the part about individual progression. We can be at different points in progression, and still be moving toward God in our own journey. It is why we can't judge others (including non-LDS). Because we don't know what part of the journey they are on in going back to God. We are all still in the "middle way" of our Eternal Lives, as Pres Uchtdorf put it.

I think you are right, the agency applies to the choice on makes on acting on it.I think we are still learning a lot about this. It is interesting to see how the Church is navigating through it as we learn more about it in our society.

Bytor, I have wondered about that. I notice it doesn't say, come unto the LDS church. It says to come unto Christ. I realize I may be looking at it differently, but it has just made me think that my Christian friend who is such a stand up guy, he has such a solid testimony of Christ and the power of the Atonement in his life...I am sympathetic to his situation since he is coming unto Christ. He is one of those Golden people that would make a great bishop if he was mormon. I worry we may too quickly jump to conclusions that the LDS Church is the only path to God, when my studies of other religions help me see how much we have in common. In fact as I read the scriptures, I see more that states it as you did...come unto Christ. Look to God. Be like Him. I think he wants to save as many of His children as He can. Perhaps there are other paths provided so they can come to Him, and eventually (in this life or the next) build on what they have, and He will add to it.

Good question. Obviously, much of this depends upon their intentions and their heart, which God would need to judge. So it is hard to just look at outward actions and know, just as it is hard to look at some other church and know just by the outward actions.My first thought is if they truly believed the temple ceremony was needed to get closer to God, then they should join our Church where it is available to do it with proper authority. I don't know why they would need to replicate it when it is available to all to join and partake. If they were in some circumstance they felt this was not an option, let's say, in some country where the church was banned, and although misguided, their intentions were pure to replicate something they thought was good, then I would think it could have power to bring them closer to God through the symbolism it represents, and God could use that to prepare them for further light and knowledge when circumstances allow (an Apostle could be sent to give them proper guidance when possible). Likely not. Similar to the scripture in Acts, they would need to have the ordinance done again properly with proper authority.So, the people in Acts who were trying to do their best with what they had...good for them, they tried, and the Lord made a way for them to be provided for, as their intentions were good. The Lord did not just cut them off and say, "Nope, you didn't have authority. Lesser kingdom for you." The same would go for a well-intentioned church replicating the temple in efforts to try to get closer to God. I believe God looks on the heart...and provides a way for those who sincerely seek Him. Of course, this is a hypothetical scenario. If the church was ripping off the temple ceremony and doing it for money or evil intentions, I believe the wrath of God would come down on them for mocking something so sacred. If that was their heart, then they would neither be getting closer to God or have it recognized in heaven.

Hmm...if they are finding God, why are not not moving towards exaltation? Is being baptized and receiving temple ordinances the fullness of the gospel?I think that as an endowed member, I am still learning, and still have need for continuing revelation, including a prophet to help me learn line upon line until I can grow closer to God and learn the fullness of the gospel. I don't think I know it all yet, but I have the spirit of promise I can in the future. Compare that to my Christian friend who is learning more about God as he lives his life according to the bible and is learning line upon line getting closer to God. One day, if he continues to seek God, can learn more of the fullness of the gospel, even get his ordinance work done, in this life or the next. Are we not both on paths to get closer to God? Are we not "in the middle" of our eternal lives as Pres Uchtdorf taught in the July Ensign so the end we don't know about yet? If other religions are bringing people closer to God, I can't see how that doesn't bring them closer to exaltation. If religions are steering them further from God, then those might be paths away from exaltation. I'm sure there are some people in some religions that are going further from God for sure. But not all.

I'm glad to hear that from your ward. But I have heard the comments many times. Sorry, I don't know what to say, but it is why it is a sore point with me. If there was a visitor with me when I heard those things, I would have been embarrassed. I'm just sharing my experience.Some of the posts in this thread do not make me feel better. I'm not asking that at all, in any way. If that meaning was taken from my words, I apologize. That was never intended. Leah, I have no problem engaging with people who will talk to me. I am not here to try to get people to agree with me, or have anyone believe the Church is wrong. I don't feel I've suggested that in any of my posts.My point is, from my view, other religions have provided a viable path to find God. That is all. I don't believe I have ever claimed to know more than our leaders. I'm trying to live the principles they teach. So, am I supposed to engage and try to share my opinions using backup from church teachings and doctrine, or am I not? I am confused with your post on where you stand on the subject. Regardless of whether you think I'm prideful or not, do you believe other religions can bring people close to God, and if they don't get a chance to accept truths in this life, they can be taught and saved in the next life? If so, we are close to agreement that other religions can be one pathway to exaltation. For God works in mysterious ways, and His ways are higher than our ways. I'm not saying our church is false (I've never suggested that). I'm just saying I'm open to possibilities of many paths.

Thanks for the post from that Rabbi. Can you clarify what you mean by this so I don't misunderstand you?

I really appreciate your opinion because you lived through that and have experience to speak from.However, as much as I understand the path you came from, and it sounded like it was not positive in any other religion until you found the beauty of this church, I do not think your experience is universal for everyone. My sister is married to a muslim. He and his family are wonderful people, truly loving. Truly hating the few extreme muslims that give them a bad name. They live their religion in a way that is about love and devotion. I respect them. I have also seen people grow up mormon who have gone through terrible experiences at the hands of church members. Physical, sexual abuse. Awful things done inside the church buildings on Tuesday night activities. Examples of church members who spoke of God with their lips, but their hearts were far from Him. I do not wish to discredit your experience in any way shape or form. I agree with you that this church is beautiful and I'm happy for you that you have found peace. However, your incredible experiences are probably not universal to everyone, right? There are many examples I have from my friends in other religions that are happy, healthy, and apply Christ's teachings. It has made me become more sensitive to the comparisons between groups, because there is so much good in the world. I also think the Church leaders have softened these words over the past decades. They have distanced themselves from BRMcConkie's words of generations past where any other church is considered "The Church of the Devil". They are more praiseworthy of our brothers and sisters of other faiths. Perhaps there was a meaning in God's plan for you to go through the path you went through, and eventually found truth in this Church. Perhaps others are on that path as well, for different reasons or different experiences with different timetables, and God is aware of them and their path as well. Not all will complete that path in this life and join the church. It doesn't lessen my experience in the church. There can be many paths. God is not limited in how He can accomplish His work and His glory. That is how I feel.

I choose to have no further discourse with you.I appreciate everyone else sharing their opinions in a way we can have a discussion about my sincere questions.

Thanks for asking, maybe I can help try to clarify my intention.By bringing up the idea that we claim more truth and if others have truth they can bring it to us and we'll add to it, sounds elitist to me. The purpose of that was to make my point that it sounds prideful to say those kind of things and be insensitive to our brothers and sisters outside the church, many of which that I mingle with are outstanding people with high values and happy lives, and exemplify Christ's teachings based on their devout following of their religion. I think the comparisons and the exclusivity claims I hear (not just in my ward but throughout this thread) do not strike me as Christ-like. That is my feeling. I am open to hear yours. So, again, I am trying to make the point that I agree with you on standing up for what we believe, but I don't find it fruitful to have to make comparison or put our claims above others in order to stand up for what we believe. Again, I will quote President Uchtdorf who warned: We can be confident in what we believe. We can be bold in our claims of what goodness we have found when telling others about our testimony. But we can also be open to other possibilities. I am.But I think most of this group does not agree with me. Which was the intent of my post. To ask what people thought about my beliefs.

I'm not too interested in getting into that, but if it helps you, just one example is... More than that...it is the general tone that you are right and I am wrong, which I don't see it that way.I'm fine with being a High Priest and having my view. Your expectations of others in the church and me is about you, so if I'm not responding to your points and waving them off, it is because I don't care to continue to rehash the same things with you. I understand your point of view. I just disagree with it. And I think it is OK in the church for various views to exist. Perhaps if you had some doctrinal quotes or teachings, I could respond to that. But it isn't worth it for me to respond to: That is just your opinion, and you can have it.

I am sorry you are not able to find a more humble way to express your convictions and respect my beliefs at the same time.We are not disagreeing on much. The church is unique, and has authority. We agree on that. It just feels to me that too much in the church I hear on Sunday is comparison to other "ways" when the comments feel uninformed to me, they are more just filled with the kind of pride that Pres Uchtdorf warned against. When we have a testimony of God's gospel, and we love everyone we see, we are not concerned with elevating one from the other, we just go and show the light and goodness of what we believe. Should there be other ways, it is not of our concern. We don't have to be the only way in order to roll our sleeves up and move forward building the kingdom of God. If there is one way, let our actions show it. If we have greater truth, let it work within us. Humility is by showing, not by touting superiority on any other religion, ethnicity, or political affiliation. That is not Jesus' way.Love is the way to God. Seeing the good in other ways does not diminish the divinity of our way.

That's worth a lot! The worth of souls is great!!

Thanks for sharing your journey. Being a member all my life, I love hearing the stories from converts that have a unique outlook on it. Your story is inspiring! I don't feel we are selling Mormonism short by not elevating it above others. I feel we should agree on what you said... I agree. There is something beautiful and special, and I love my faith. It does not need to be compared to others to be special to me. It stands on its own.

I think it is really cool you can have these discussions with your daughter. I admire you for that.

Ya, there is bad stuff on the Internet. I feel for those that are hurting and need vent, but if they are not searching for ways to get past their anger and find real truth, there is no point in joining their conversations. Perhaps there is some solace they feel with others who want to bash the church also. They feel validated. Unfortunately, it isn't usually productive.

The more you jump up and down and say you're right...doesn't make you right. You're missing the point because of your defensiveness. This is exactly what our church teaches: - The Church is true - The Church has authority - All must follow Christ by entering into the gate, and receiving necessary ordinances - Vicarious work is done for all, so everyone has the opportunity in this life or the next to be rewarded for how they lived in this mortal probation Since there are many paths (thanks to Temple Work), we do not need to use the "us vs. them" mentality someone earlier on the thread mentioned. Let God judge. Meanwhile, according to our prophet (see GA Smith quote), Israel may have reforming to do, because the fruits don't always distinguish us from other dedicated citizens in our communities. I don't think that can be debated.

The story of the prodigal son is a great lesson on the joy and love the Lord has for those that return. Perhaps the ones that have never strayed, like the prodigal son's faithful older brother, have a little hard time understanding the Father's reaction...but that is a different lesson and something they can work through. Because of the Atonement, there is always hope. Vort points out the Sons of Perdition...and I think those are few and the extreme exceptions and I think they are ones that do not want to return...for if they did want to be forgiven, the Lord would forgive and receive them. But some people don't want to, and the Lord will not violate their agency. They are not kept out, they choose to leave.

I appreciate everyone's responses. Good thoughts. There are a few I feel I should respond to so that Vort doesn't need to speak for me: No, this would not be accurate. I've spent a lot of time studying. On my mission, I was AP and missionaries came to me with questions on how to handle people in their area of other religions pointing out things they couldn't answer, so I would instruct them a little more on what Jehovah Witnesses believe, or baptists, or Jews. When I served in the bishopric and high council, I would answer questions of ward members and stake members who had part-member family situations and were concerned about issues. I've studied a good deal. It is one reason I see things the way I do. I really like this approach with your wife...it seems an interesting lesson. However, I would imagine if you played this game with the Dalai Lama and allowed him to ask the questions, he'd end up with more pennies than you. I don't mean that to attack your idea...only to make a point that any claims our religion makes on holding more truth, are also echoed in many other religions. Obviously, since these debates have gone on forever, and there are never winners in debating "more" or "better" truth claims among groups. I cherish the temple covenants I have made. I like your last sentence in that they are methods to help God partner in our lives. Well said. I also believe other religions have their rituals and covenants that help them as well, and help them partner with God also. I'm not advocating the covenants be lessened in importance or looked at as no big deal. I'm saying that some in our church use them well to get closer to God, some use them as checklists to feel good they are in the right way, and some discard them. It is the personal use that gives them power, along with the spiritual power from God. Similarly, other religions have their covenants or promises that their people benefit from by keeping their commitments to them. I like your analogy of getting to a destination. It makes my point well. I think the mistake you are making is to suggest only one form of transportation to get to Hawaii. I agree with you about walking, biking, or driving. But then to jump to a conclusion that there is only one way left...planes...would be the mistake. If you look at all the people that are in Hawaii, they did not all get there by plane. So, we must re-examine the assumptions, or as others in this thread seem to allude to... we could say I'm not sure how others got to Hawaii, but for me, I think taking a plane is best and that is what I'll do. But we cannot say, there is only one way to get to Hawaii.I want to remind the group, my testimony is that the Church is true. I have been a member all my life, and will likely always be, for I love the Church and what it teaches. But my studies perhaps help me see there needs to be some reform in the church (as we all strive for perfection), if we could just get people to see things differently. I don't say this as a heretic, I am trying to say the same thing our prophet has said: We should not rest on our truth claims to make us feel good about ourselves when the fruits we produce are not distinguishable from our neighbors, and I'm speaking about the church collectively, not individually.

There is a good quote from a Jewish Rabbi that goes like this: I can respect Vort's position, and there is only ONE way. It is Christ. That is what the scriptures say.I think it would be very problematic if we could only follow Christ by being Mormon in this life, but revelation has given us the knowledge that the timing of when we receive these truths is according to God's time. So many things are in His hands, and that comforts me. I have a deep respect for other religions, and think it can be offensive if we claim too loudly the LDS Church is the ONLY way to exaltation. Perhaps it is what we believe, and perhaps I am open to believing God's plan is merciful enough to realize there are mysterious ways He is able to Bring To Pass The Salvation and The Eternal Life of as many of His children as possible. Pres Hinckley reminded us well:

Ya, I get that bytor. Do we agree that people will have a fair chance, either in this life, or in the next life to receive these saving ordinances? If so, then it is reasonable that a devout Buddhist will be taught wonderful truths in this life through Buddhism truths, might live a righteous life, and in the next life be taught and receive ordinances needed to be exalted if they receive them. Therefore, another path to exaltation is Buddhism. Correct?

My heart goes out to you. The change will be difficult, but it is easier when you have that confirmation God knows your heart, and is telling you that it will be OK. But I'm sure it won't be easy. You're in my prayers.

If your emphasis is that only Mormons will be exalted, then that is the wrong-minded emphasis.If people can accept the gospel in this life or the next life, then there are multiple paths to getting there eventually. That is what we agree on. Your story by Bruce R McConkie demonstrates a flawed perspective on how someone might think they can be saved later by having the proxy work done for them. I was comparing it to someone in the church that has flawed thinking their ordinances will save them above their neighbors who don't have ordinances done for them. Either way, it is missing the point on what ordinances can do for us. I respect your opinion. But I disagree. Jesus Christ is the only way to God. There is a difference, and the Church has its role in it, but it is an important distinction in my opinion. Perhaps. And perhaps in this life or the next, they will be allowed to make that choice. Until then, I focus on me and my family and allow others the right to worship God according to the dictates of their conscience. I respectfully disagree. I have studied many other religions that have some teachings that are better than what I find in the Church. Overall, I prefer the LDS doctrine for me, the whole package is best for me. But others are just as good in many ways, from what I can see. That does not diminish the need to preach the gospel or for me to be a Mormon. I don't have to be "right" in order to embrace the good I have, and I can allow others to live with what they find is good for them. There is no evidence the Mormon church does more for people than other good churches do for their members. None that I can find, anyway. There are just opinions and feelings we have about which is better for us. And more important, what we do with the light and knowledge given to us.

I'm not sure there is a double standard. There is just emphasis to the groups that need to hear direction and guidance. Boys and men seem to be warned about the problems of porn because many of them struggle with it and go to the bishops about it. Girls and women are warned about being modest with their dress and to be careful not to gossip. Those are not double standards (or intended to be compared or put as equivalents), just practical advice to who needs to hear those messages. Regarding the group talking about it, I can't imagine they were actually suggesting porn was worse than having an affair. You could argue it is the same thing...but worse??? I think they might have been getting carried away. Bishops and SPs don't view it that way.

I think we are saying the same thing, perhaps just with the different view on the same thought. If they are allowed to receive and embrace doctrines and ordinances in the next life, than this life is open to: 1) being a member of the church and entering into covenants and learning to be Christ-like through those ordinances by practicing them; 2) not being a member of the church but live according to the light and knowledge received in this life to be Christ-like through practicing goodness, and be given a fair chance in the next life to accept ordinances.Either way, it will work out, whether someone is Mormon in this life or not. I think it is as likely as the person in Elder McConkie's story. I don't believe his story is any more common than my example of church members who place too much pride in their covenants instead of what they do with their covenants. You just choose describe potential flaws of those outside the church, and I am describing potential flaws inside the church, but we're both describing the same flaw in how people look at ordinances.