Heber13

Nice thoughts, Flavius. When looking at D&C 137, I think you have to consider JS also saw his mom and dad there...so the vision must have been a vision of what was to come, not actually seeing Alvin already exalted, since his mom and dad were still living when he saw them in the vision. But the nice part we can take from the vision is that even those souls not receiving the ordinances in this life can be exalted to the highest degree of the CK, because God looks upon the heart and provides a way for the pure in heart to be with him. That is a comforting doctrine.

Thanks for sticking it out to page 6! Good advice. I actually have done a lot of study and prayer on it to know for myself, but I find at church some comments that bother me and actually make me wonder if non-members were there to hear them how offensive or prideful we might sound. My intentions were to honestly and sincerely ask this group how they think of it so I can try to know how my beliefs fit in with main stream mormonism...to try to understand it better and to check my thoughts against others who may have thought these same things.I have found many responses were loving and very thoughtful. Others are less so. It has helped me see all the responses, including yours. Thanks! I like these thoughts, especially as we focus on what Christ taught about the 2 great commandments.However, it seems the doctrines in the church teach it is more than being good. When a person accepts Christ as the way to salvation and exaltation, there are commitments and covenants required to show the commitment. I understand and accept that as a way to truly show faith and to connect with God to receive blessings. In my heart, however, I do not think that automatically then leads to "this is the only way". It is the church restored with truths and priesthood power. But I can't find definitive scripture and teaching that there is no other way, when temple proxy work opens the door to it. The online forum helps me work through my thoughts, but ultimately, you are correct, personal revelation is needed for my testimony. Thanks for responding.

9 Months before my mission, wrote during the mission, dated 6 months after the mission and engaged for 6 months until married in the temple. No pre-marital sex.

Finrock, Since you're a straight shooter...can you tell me if you see that D&C 137 teaches us God prepares a way for all His children, even those who are not blessed with ordinances while in this life? God seems to be teaching us He will judge people not only with works and ordinances, but also according to the desires of their hearts.Little Children cannot sin, and so they are worthy to receive exaltation, and are saved through the Atonement. The Buddhist monk drinking tea and violating the Word of Wisdom is not sinning, without the knowledge of the gospel. And will be judged according to his heart's desires. So our church leaders are telling us that the mortal test will be judged by God. Therefore, some will never hear of the gospel in this life. Some we will never know of their names in order to do temple work for them. But God can still allow them to come unto Him and receive exaltation if their hearts were such that they would have received it had they been given a proper chance. So we cannot say the only way is Mormonism, when there are exceptions provided for in the merciful and just plan of salvation. The teachings of ministers in Joseph's day were teaching people had to be baptized in their religion or be sent to hell, including babies. Joseph helped restore a beautiful truth that God provides a way for those not given a chance in this life, like his brother Alvin.

It seems to me it would be a great waste of space and resources if God wasn't putting more of His children on these other planets.

It would be hard for me to think of another being, even another exalted being, that would be Christ's equal.

It sounds to me like you've done a lot to prepare him. Of course, those of us that have served missions know that it is an experience, so you can prepare in thought and spirit, but the real experience has to be lived. The biggest thing my dad for me was read scriptures about the 4 sons of Mosiah, and about loving the people. How to prepare the parents for it might be harder. I wish you and your son the best! You must be proud.

Finrock, I like your direct and to the point responses. Thanks.

Good to meet you, too, Finrock. Thanks for your reply.First, don't mean to be picky but just a small correction in your statement...immortality is not received from the saving ordinances, that is the free gift we all get, correct? Exaltation is the topic this thread has been discussing because I'm not so sure it is so cut and dry. SeminarySnoozer mentioned in #56 how these ordinances give us help and power to endure to the end. I like that idea. I think priesthood power can absolutely help those who commit and live worthy to receive that support, and who regularly go back to church and the temple for renewing those. They are wonderful blessings to help guide a person through this journey. But is Exaltation ONLY for those with the ordinances, no matter how good they are? It seems to me that I see exceptions to the rules, and then it makes me think that maybe that is not absolutely the case. One example might be a baby dying before age 8. We don't do ordinance work for them, right? Why? If that is the case, we can't say exaltation is ONLY from those who have ordinances from the proper authority. Severely handicapped people are another exception. If there are exceptions, then, perhaps, I'm open to there being other ways people can attain exaltation. That should not mean priesthood power and authority is worthless. It just means maybe we should step back and be more open to other ways, while preaching the power of these ordinances in our lives, and invite others to come and partake of them because they can help us. If they choose not to, well, we do not need to be so confident that means they cannot have exaltation. Maybe they can. But I believe they'd benefit from the ordinances while in this life to help strengthen them. So I can believe the priesthood is real and God's authority. But that doesn't make it black and white to me. There are other considerations and still reconcile my testimony of the restoration.

I would probably gather the facts so we know what we're talking about. The Church gives an enormous amount of money to the humanitarian effort. There are examples and examples of how effective and helpful the Church is after something like hurricanes, tsunamis, and 3rd world country missions. There are also statistics that show how efficient the church is with the money, whereas many organizations only give $0.75 of every dollar donated to the cause to pay for overhead expenses...these things can be researched to dispel wrong information. These are hard questions. I don't have good answers for it, because it is so sad. But we do know that it happens, and people suffer in this world, and it doesn't seem fair from our vantage point.It takes faith to see evil and suffering, and yet believe we do not see all things now, and that through the Atonement there is hope that God will make all things right, for He loves all His children. Unfortunately, those answers don't stop the suffering, and can be not fulfilling answers. Best we can do is try to realize we can be part of the solution...not sit back and ask why God doesn't fix everything for us. We can sit back and criticize the church, or criticize God...or we can roll up our sleeves and try to make a difference in the world around us.

It helps to shed light on what the war in heaven was like, when you realize it did not end in heaven...but according to our prophet, continues today. I think it does include swords and murder, but goes beyond that as well. We are living amid the war still. We saw it played out in Aurora Colorado last week, but we also see it every day.The 1/3 hosts were cast out of heaven...only to continue the war here and now. We must have the armor of God and we must keep our homes safe and train our children to prepare to fight for what is right.

I wondered if Skippy had a response to post #132

Its a sad day. This happened not far from me, and my 17 yr old daughter was out at the same time watching the movie at a different theater. She came home and told me all about it, as facebook and texts were ringing off the hook about it. It is a tragedy. What evil lies in the hearts of some people?...it is just too difficult to understand! My family will be taking a break from movie theaters for a while. We can watch DVDs at home. That is not the solution, but it is how we feel we'll deal with it for now. I pray for the people and families in my neighborhood who will be dealing with this for some time. When news like this happens close to home, it makes it scary, and we are just "lucky" my daughter wasn't at the wrong theater at the wrong time for a random act of evil. It makes me sad.

Yes! Well said. I agree with you. Thanks for answering the question.I do think keeping the second estate is what the judgement and exaltation is about. I do think this Church has true teachings, and power, and authority to help people get there. How blessed we are to have the restored church to help us keep our second estate, and I agree there is more we are expected to become than just "being a good person". We must follow Christ and become like him. I have always loved Elder Oaks talk in General Conference where he says: The Challenge to Become - general-conferenceThanks for your comments.

This is a good analogy. I like it because it is about progressing in knowledge and developing a way to think about things that the education can transform a person. The diploma you get when you earn it by doing certain things is a vehicle to help people on that path, but not everyone with a degree will be transformed the same, not everyone without a degree will not be transformed. It is just one way to help, and probably the most probable way to transform successfully. When I hire people in my work, the degrees they get are typically a standard set to see they are qualified to do the work with proper education. But it is not a guarantee they are qualified. Some others with years of work experience (and not having a degree) may be better developed to be hired to a position than someone with a degree. Therefore, there are different paths to becoming worthy to be hired in a job. This could apply also to being worthy for exaltation based on how the Lord sees His children have developed to be like Christ. Thanks for sharing.

Cool!

Good to meet you. What's some of the main reasons you want to come back. It must have been easier to just not go, but those darn missionaries bring the spirit, don't they?

There is a great talk by Pres Monson from April 2009 titled Be of Good Cheer. I highly recommend it! The church is a church of love, not a church of fear.

My understanding of the process is that if a person does is opposed to the calling, then the presiding authority at the meeting is supposed to meet with the opposer privately. If the accusations are faulty, then they move ahead with the person being called, and nothing happens to the person who opposed. If done privately, no one else should know what the false accusations are. If the person opposing becomes a problem with not sustaining the leader publicly and verbally, disciplinary action can take place.

Welcome!

Sarah, Welcome to the forum! It is great to read your story. You have some good questions. Here are some of my thoughts: No, it is the right thing to do. Sometimes, although others are going through trials, we can be a positive example in our ward of positive and optimistic outlooks. Others may need to hear your views on that. I think we can sometimes place too much emphasis on the Word of Wisdom standards, instead of the wisdom of the words found in the D&C 89. It is a good thing to commit to and live up to the standards the church has, including avoiding coffee, tea, and smoking. That does not mean everything else is ok. The Lord wants us to learn the spirit of the law, and grow in maturity so we don't need to be commanded in all things, but take correct principles and choose wisely. So, temperance in all things, including sugar, is what we should internalize. We should not shun others who smoke or drink. Because we don't live it, doesn't mean we don't love others who live differently. I think there will be more things God will use to determine who gets into the CK than coffee, tea, and smoking. We should keep things in perspective, and as you said, use love. Love is the great commandment. I love the teaching families can be sealed together forever. But I also see God's teachings that we must choose and want to be with God. Even the power of the priesthood and sealings cannot over ride freedom of choice.It is like my sister whose son was just married in the temple, and she did not have a recommend to see her first son married. It hurt her. It can be hard to understand why the church would keep her from wanting to be with him on a special occasion. But the rules and standards and known and are set. Just because the family wants to be in the temple, doesn't give them the right to be in the temple. But a way is provided they can choose to be in the temple. IF they choose otherwise, there are consequences they don't get to choose. However, I think God is merciful and wants families together. But He has also set the rules so people can choose. The good news is that the Atonement, and repentance in this life and the spirit world give us hope that nothing is final in our families to be together. We just need to have faith. And trust in God's plan. I hope that helps. Those are my thoughts.

I respect your opinion, Hala. It seems you have found happiness and joy with your decision to join the church. Thanks for your example. I love it too, and from everything I've studied, the LDS church is the best place for me as well.

I was going to give you another reading assignment ... but how about I just quickly answer?? Always in the Middle - Ensign July 2012 - ensign

Skippy, let me try to respond to your points. Actually, I'd say I LOVE the church, not just like it. I've committed almost my whole life to it, and I defend it regularly.I do have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel. I hold a temple recommend, and when asked, I don't hesitate to affirm to my authorities I have a testimony of the restoration. That's right (although the wording and meaning behind words is critical to clarify). This Church was restored by the Prophet Joseph Smith by the Lord and is an earthly institution to help us in our journey, and the gospel goes beyond this Church and this earthly existence (the church and the gospel are different things, although related, they have different functions). I feel exaltation is determined on gospel principles, not on church ordinances only. Church ordinances and doctrines are the scaffolding to help us get to truth and Christ. The symbolic meanings help us look to God as the only way, and commit ourselve to them so we can practice living them. Temple work and our doctrine of teaching spirits in the spirit world help me feel good inside that I can believe exaltation can be based on more than this church. But this church can be a part of the path to exaltation, and I LOVE this church, believe it is true, and want to live my life according to its teachings to help me become converted to the gospel.As I get older, however, I see things differently. We "see through a glass darkly", as Paul wrote in Corinthians. Therefore, even an apostle like Paul knows we do not see it all crystal clear, but we have enough to help us work to be more like Christ. That does not describe how I feel inside. I think through most of this thread, the issue is I break things out differently, whereas 10 years ago I saw things more like you are stating it.What I break out is the restoration as one thing, and the Church being the "one and only" way to God as a different idea. So I disagree because my testimony of the gospel is strong. I have given a Book of Mormon to my Christian friend, bearing my testimony it is of God, and that he can get closer to Christ through reading it (because that is what I believe). And because I CARE so much about him, I want to share what I know, and I also care enough about him that I listen to what he has to share. And frankly, he has many things I learn from. Because he did not accept the Book of Mormon as scripture, and is happy with his faith in Christ, I care enough about him to accept him as he is, and because I know how righteous his heart is (from what I can tell), I have a hard time believing God would deny him the highest degree of the CK. But I leave that up to God, and I do not tell him he cannot be saved unless he joins our church. I do not believe that in my heart. It doesn't feel right to me. I believe the Church is right for ME. I cannot tell what is right for others. And so, I let go of that, and I let go of feeling I must claim there is only one way. What does it profit me to say there is "one way"? I don't find anything. I just focus on me and my way. But I will continue to do my part as a missionary to teach my friend the gospel. One of the best ways, I believe, is to love him, and not approach him with an attitude that he must change or he will not be exalted. Rather, I'd like to show him the beauty and love I have of the church, and invite him to study it, and if the spirit confirms its truth to him, great. If he doesn't join the church, then great. I trust God has a path for him. I hope he finds it. If he doesn't choose to, then he will be judged by God for his desires. If he does, he can be baptized either in this life, or in the next life, and be exalted. Therefore his path to exaltation would be a different path than mine as a faithful LDS member in this world. No, as I've said many times, the idea that has me thinking about all of this is that temple work can be done for those in the spirit world by proxy. Because of that, people who live good lives in this life without the proper opportunity to accept the Church can be given opportunities in the next life, therefore, their religion in this life can help them be good people and become like Christ so they will be worthy to stand in his presence, and then the final ordinances can be done (kind of as a formality, I guess). My covenants and ordinances are more than a formality to me, because I treasure them and they teach me through the power of the priesthood. But not everyone gets that opportunity in this life for some reason (like Alvin Smith), so the plan allows a way for others to be exalted, even if they are not a part of the LDS Church (like Alvin Smith). This is getting off topic again, because you are assuming I don't have a testimony and I don't share the gospel. I do. Mostly with people at my work who want to know why I don't drink when I'm at business dinners. It is a great opportunity for me to share my testimony with people. So my beliefs I've stated in this thread do not lead to the conclusion that I don't have a testimony, or it isn't strong enough, or that I am not worthy to be in the temple, or that I don't do home teaching or missionary work. I am a believing mormon. I can understand that by reading my posts one could think this. But obviously you don't fully know someone by online blogs. You'd have to meet me, know me, and know my heart to really understand me. So, in the original post, I asked the group if I was on dangerous ground, because I'd like to get feedback on these ideas that I feel were inspired by the spirit to help me see things more lovingly than I did in my prior views. I keep studying and praying to ask God to help me find truth. I hope the Moroni promise and D&C 8and9 promises apply to me as much as others, so I study it out and seek God for guidance. I seem to be pushed towards love and tolerance, not exclusivity and "us vs. them". But that is just my personal revelations I have received in the temple.I do not expect anyone else to have to agree with me, I'm just sharing my thoughts and questions to get feedback from others so that I might consider others' views. But in the end, I will trust my heart. I think I got the feedback. According to most people, the feeling among this group is that yes...I'm on dangerous ground. I honestly don't believe I'm waffling. In short, I just look at it differently than you skippy. I have a testimony, I just have some different beliefs, and I think that can happen and does happen in the church. We can have different beliefs and all still be a part of the body of Christ. I love this Church and hope my Christian friend joins some day. If not, I do not condemn him. I believe there can be other paths and God can lead him if my friend chooses to follow Christ. Proxy temple work opens that possibility to me. That is my testimony until God gives me further revelation that I should believe otherwise. I appreciate everyone's input. I like to learn from hearing others' views. This discussion has been helpful to me. So far, I have not changed my views. But perhaps, I need to be careful how I share my views with others because I can easily be misunderstood with non-traditional beliefs. True understanding comes when we go behind the words we say, and understand each others' minds and hearts...and this is a challenge on a chat board, IMO.

"Changed" made a great post on the previous page, and pointed it out 2Ne 29:7 - 13, there are teachings we believe in that are open to lost tribes. Christ setup His Church while in Jerusalem. But at the same time, God provided a way for other tribes. Our Article of Faith #9 states Since there are many "great and important" things yet to be revealed, I am open to there being more than "one way", because we don't know everything yet.But with what we know, we try to be converted and become more like Christ, with the light and knowledge we're given.