Cal

Do you know any members of your ward or branch who come to church, but who don't necessarily believe in all the "revelation" stuff, JS story, BM or other church "myths" as you see it. They just come, perhaps, because they have grown up in the church. It is their social group, or their family attends, or they just like being around other mormons. For what ever reason they attend church. IOW, do you think it is hypocritical to attend church when you know that you don't believe in the same way 99% of the rest? If you feel perfectly nice just sitting there listening to all the nice positive assertions, a feel a good "spirit" when you go to church, even though you are not about to get up and bear your testimony or give a talk (knowing that if you are honest you will send the little blue-haired RS ladies into cardiac arrest). So you just enjoy the sociality, help out in the service functions and keep your mouth shut about how you interpret Mormonism. You've been through the temple, married in the temple, pay tithing, follow the WoW (even better than the 300 lb Gospel doctrine teacher) and actually live the same life as the best of the other LDS; this person doesn't lie to the Bishop and tell him he had a testimony, so he doesn hold a temple recommend; this person just doesn't happen to believe in the same things as the others. Perhaps he/she tried to get a testimony, but at the end of all his prayer,study, reading and research came to the conclusion that the Church is a very nice place to be on Sundays, but is nor more than that, a very nice place to be on Sundays. What do you think about this kind of thing? Has it happened to you? To anyone you know?

Okay, if that is your issue, then I apologize, I wasn't deliberately avoiding it. I thought it was a rhetorical question. First, I don't REFUSE to believe it. I could believe that God commanded such violence. I just have yet to be persuaded. Second, I am aware that people get concerned that if you disregard one part of the Bible, then you start down a slippery slope and picking and chosing leads to a cobbled-together, less-than-whole gospel or moral code. An example of that would be the ordination of the gay Episcopal Bishop. Obviously they have decided that extra-marital sex and homosexuality are no longer relevant. That's dangerous. That's bad, in my opinion. So why do I pick and choose if I think it is wrong when the Episcopals pick and choose? Simply... because I pick the right things and they pick the wrong things; you do too, we all do, everyone picks and chooses but more about that later. We don't know everything about how the Bible was compiled, but we do know a lot, especially the NT. Knowing what we know about the Bible's compilation, why should we place so much faith in it's content? If the Catholics put together a book of the apocrypha today and called it scripture, you wouldn't accept it. Why do you accept what they did 1700 years ago? They did it unders the order and auspices of a mass-murderer - Constantine. It was, for 200 years, a highly polictical process. The books that wound up in the Bible (NT) are there because they represent the beliefs of the WINNERS. There was no clear hierarchical structure to the Church, if you can call it a church. There was a struggle for power - winners and losers. If the losers had won, there would be different books in the Bible. As the Bible was taking shape in the 3rd and 4th centuries, decisions had to be made about what to include and exclude. Books were selected, not based upon scholarship (who wrote what, how old was it, how historically accurate was it) but based upon the philosophical/doctrinal alignment the books had with the people who were picking them. Besides just compiling problems, there is copyist error and translation error. The Bible is full of them. Beyond compilation, scribal and translation error, we have the biggest problem of all - authorship and redaction. We have NO IDEA who wrote most of the books of the OT or when they were written or who edited them, or who redacted (wove various accounts into one account) them or how that was all done and why. Why believe something from anonymous sources? Third, why should we accept the Bible history as literal? The Bible itself does not say that we should or shouldn't. You do. Other's don't. I am in the middle. What does the Bible have to say about it? Nothing. Fourth, We all pick and choose what to believe. Do you believe Paul's advice that man is better not to marry. Pure rubbish is what I say. What about divorce? Do you believe the Bible when it prohibits it? You believe Paul about faith and works but not so much for James. Who killed Goliath? The Bible say it was Elhanan. Most people disregard that and think it was David. Do you believe that Job is literal? That God made a wager with Satan? We all disregard some parts of Mosaic law but wholeheartedly accept other parts, like the 10 commandments. We all pick and choose. Fifth, and this part applies to me, not you, we have other scripture, Book of Mormon, D&C, PoGP and modern prophets to clarify what is unclear in the Bible. Sixth, If God were to command today the horrible attrocities that the Bible attributes to him, we wouldn't accept it. In fact we call people that beleive that terrorists. Why should we believe it just becasue it happened long ago and far away? Lastly, after all the posturing, I believe the Bible, all of it. I just don't believe it the same way that you believe it. Sorry for any typos - I have to go to Church and time is short. Does that answer your question?

Peace--to address some of your statements more specifically--- Again, too vague to address in specific, but I'm not sure you know enough about the events that lead to the down fall of societies to make any meaningful statement at all. Which governments are you talking about. The fall of the Roman empire was due to a lot of events. Most historians agree that there is no ONE reason the Empire eventually fell. All societies change, and for many different reasons. The Romans were eventually simply unable to stave off the ravages of the Eastern tribes which extorted vast sums of gold from the Romans just to keep the Huns, for example, from plundering and destroying the outlaying provinces. The Roman legal system worked pretty well, and the Romans were, as conquerors go, pretty good to those they conquored. Their society did not fall because they had a lousy legal system, it fell because their leaders at the top made poor decisions about how to handle tribes like the Huns. One of the advantages that strong democracies like the US has is that it draws wisdom not just from a few Kings or Rulers but from the citizenry as a whole. This has the effect of tempering and calling to account those that make bad decisions. Personally, I think the biggest threat to our survival is the accumulation of power in the hands of gigantic corporate interests. With their money and power they threaten to influence governement to their own ends and interests, ignoring things like the ENVIRONMENT, social injustice, the poor and underpriviledge in favor of short term economic gain and the promotion of war and war machines.

Peace---because you tend to be quite vague in your objections to modern western society it is hard to address your concerns but I will try anyway. I will assume that when you compare modern democracies (US, Britain, France, Germany, Spain etc) to empires of the past you are taking a look at the broad spectrum of activities that describe these societies. If you do so, I think you will find that, contrary to your evaluation, modern societies are FAR more ethical, moral and just than say the dictatorial kingdoms of the 18th centuries on back. For example, I think if you will do a little research, you will find that most scholars and experts on western civilization will agree that, inspite of its faults, the American legal system is the best ever devised by man. The improvements introduced by the Framers of the Constitution guarantee a level of fairness to the little guy, and justice to the injured, as well as protection of all by oppressive governmental actions, never before offered to mankind in ANY governement in history. Especially in any government of the size of US. The idea that a man is presummed innocent, that the government must show probable cause before 1) searching 2) arresting 3) trying for crime is a gigantic step forward in justice, fairness and, yes....rightousness. The fact that you can sue your own government for torts committed against you is unprecedented in history. NEVER have people been able to hold their "governers" accountable for misdeeds. Yes, the wheels of justice grind slowly. And NO, justice is not ALWAYS done; but it is done more often, will better results than at any time in history. Yes, many of the parts of the system need refining. But that doesn't change the fact that we have devised the best system known to man in history for seeing justice done. Shall I go on?

I missed your reference to swift horses in which men rode upon. Thank you The Traveler Horses run fast and a man can sit on them and make haste. Chariots and horses combined are a powerful way to move an army into battle. Real horses existed in America and men rode upon them. The excuses offered by some LDS apologetic scholars are an insult to my intelligence. I thank God I am not under any obligation to heed the silly ideas they come up with. Alma 20: 6 Now when Lamoni had heard this he caused that his servants should make ready his horses and his chariots. Ex. 14: 9 But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them Paul O

Traveler---the question I think you are asking is basically a sociological one. That is, how has human behavior in the areas of sexuality, agression, economic justice (feeding the poor), and criminal activity (theft, murder, rape etc) changed over time. The best way to answer this question is to consult the appropriate historical and modern research on the subject. Because human activity today is so widely visible through the media, one might be tempted to immediately conclude that we are a more wicked society than at other times in history. It might be true. However, one would have to show that a particular activity is more prevalent now than at another time. It is no easy thing to answer, and surely jumping to conclusions based on what we see on TV etc will not suffice. So, I have no idea whether we are or are not more wicked, except that the little history I have read makes me very hestiant to conclude that we are much worse than at any other time, and there are many ways in which we are better. The current rate of Church attendance in the US (about 50% (all churches) is higher now than it was in the 1800's even in the large cities. Prostitution was rampant in the big cities and always has been, and was even rampant in the western frontier. History is full of murder and meyhem from the beginning. Few societies have been free of it. Crime rates in the US have been higher than they are now, and it seems to fluctuate with economic times--no particular trend upward, and definitely downward in some. One thing I'm quite sure of predicting---there will never be another universal flood. Not because God said there never will be another, but because there never was one in the first place.

Now, PD, that is too tongue in cheek, even for you!

Paul---so let's see, whenever a General Authority, like Br. Romney, makes a statement to a large group of saints, that is considered revelation and a truth you can rely on? You answered that question pretty clearly. President Joseph Fielding Smith made the statement (not once but many times), "man will never walk on the moon" and he was the president of the Q of 12 at the time. How are we supposed to believe in your assertion about Br. Romney, when some things said by GA's under the same circumstances turn out not to be true?

Laurel--Just curious, would you pay your tithing if there were no immediate payoff? OR would you pay it if there were no reward at all, just the joy that comes from giving to a worthy cause?

Cal, I know this was meant for Peace, but this is a message is for all of the members of this board. This is a LDS message board. What gives you the right to come here and say these things about our church? What your posts says is that JS was not a prophet and the Book Of Mormon isn't true. Just for "good measure" you add that the "Spirit" testifies this to you??? Cal ~ WHAT ARE YOUR INTENTIONS HERE?

There is a big difference between men and prophets. We have answered this question maybe thirty times on this board...Why can't you get it..????? We can know a prophet from a man by his works and the confirmation of the Spirit. Just because you have no clue how powerful the Spirit can work, and what difference the Spirit can make, doesn't mean we have to wander around blind and stupid also. We are happy, finding joy and rejoicing in our lives...we are not over at your place trying to dig at you....you are here trying to dig at us. Doesn't that tell you something? Jealousy is a major problem among those on the outside....has been from the beginning of time. The first murder was caused by the very thing you are guilty of. You are jealous of our joy. You are miserable. Misery loves company. You ...like Satan...want us to forsake our knowledge and adherance to Christ and His prophets, to follow him... How do you suppose 1/3 the host of heaven were talked into following such a loser as Satan? Rom. 10: 3 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. They forsook the known right way because of dicussions of logic like you put out. They became blinded by their own ideas of righteousness and progress... These ideas of Satan's righteousness forsook the principles of 'agency' which is necessary for existence and progress... These ideas of Satan's righeousness forsook the principles of 'individual' worth which would allow all to receive their 'own' glory... according to their obedience to God's righteous principles. These ideas of Satan's righteous were really based upon ignorance/darkness which only brings captivity. When you follow such a path...you lose...we don't. Know this, you are among Satan's minions. If you are happy there...it is temporary at best. When this life ends...so will the blindness you are experiencing. I have already died once. I know from whence I speak. Peace---typical tactic of the religious fanatic-------IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE AS I DO, THE BIG BAD SATAN IS GOING TO GET YOU! Convince the infidel by FEAR. That may be your God's way, it's not mine. As far as your monopoly on happiness----I was born in the LDS church, mission the whole thing. I have a real good perspective on what it is all about. I even thought I had one of your "testimonies". Was I happy? I thought I was for a while. Then I realized that I was anything but. Seeing through the brain washing of my youth is what has brought me true happiness and FREEDOM. I am finally free to think for myself and it feels GREAT. I have a very happy life, with a very happy wife, and grown kids who are also VERY successful and happy, without the shackles of religious fanaticism. A brief history of my spiritual journey out of mormonism started when I began studying religion from the UNBIASED point of view---as though I were a non-mormon investigating the church for the first time. I had already read the BoM over 10 times and was familiar with all the pro-mormon propaganda. I read neutral, factual stuff and anti- stuff. The anti- stuff didn't impress me. It was full of misinformation and slants. However, the neutral scientific stuff was more than enough to make me realize that Mormons are taught things that are simply untrue. The credibility of JS was seriously questionable. And what I have learned since had done little to convince me otherwise. I still believe in God and the Spirit---it is just NOT the MORMON God, or anyone elses for that matter. My God has never told me that he organizes religions, nor has he told me there is any such thing an YOUR Satan. The God I believe in requires me to use my rational thought and difficult study and research to KNOW anything other than that He exists. He doesn't allow me to make claims of KNOWING things thru the Spirit other than that He exists. So, my point is your claim that only Mormonism can make one truely happy is a falsehood, just another tactic to try to attract people and to justify things that I think, most mormons, deep down suspect are not really true. That is why they claim to KNOW so much--they are trying to drown out the little voice of logic that says, "mormonism claims too much".

There is a big difference between men and prophets. We have answered this question maybe thirty times on this board...Why can't you get it..????? We can know a prophet from a man by his works and the confirmation of the Spirit. Just because you have no clue how powerful the Spirit can work, and what difference the Spirit can make, doesn't mean we have to wander around blind and stupid also. We are happy, finding joy and rejoicing in our lives...we are not over at your place trying to dig at you....you are here trying to dig at us. Doesn't that tell you something? Jealousy is a major problem among those on the outside....has been from the beginning of time. The first murder was caused by the very thing you are guilty of. You are jealous of our joy. You are miserable. Misery loves company. You ...like Satan...want us to forsake our knowledge and adherance to Christ and His prophets, to follow him... How do you suppose 1/3 the host of heaven were talked into following such a loser as Satan? Rom. 10: 3 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. They forsook the known right way because of dicussions of logic like you put out. They became blinded by their own ideas of righteousness and progress... These ideas of Satan's righteousness forsook the principles of 'agency' which is necessary for existence and progress... These ideas of Satan's righeousness forsook the principles of 'individual' worth which would allow all to receive their 'own' glory... according to their obedience to God's righteous principles. These ideas of Satan's righteous were really based upon ignorance/darkness which only brings captivity. When you follow such a path...you lose...we don't. Know this, you are among Satan's minions. If you are happy there...it is temporary at best. When this life ends...so will the blindness you are experiencing. I have already died once. I know from whence I speak. Peace---typical tactic of the religious fanatic-------IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE AS I DO, THE BIG BAD SATAN IS GOING TO GET YOU! Convince the infidel by FEAR. That may be your God's way, it's not mine. As far as your monopoly on happiness----I was born in the LDS church, mission the whole thing. I have a real good perspective on what it is all about. I even thought I had one of your "testimonies". Was I happy? I thought I was for a while. Then I realized that I was anything but. Seeing through the brain washing of my youth is what has brought me true happiness and FREEDOM. I am finally free to think for myself and it feels GREAT. I have a very happy life, with a very happy wife, and grown kids who are also VERY successful and happy, without the shackles of religious fanaticism. A brief history of my spiritual journey out of mormonism started when I began studying religion from the UNBIASED point of view---as though I were a non-mormon investigating the church for the first time. I had already read the BoM over 10 times and was familiar with all the pro-mormon propaganda. I read neutral, factual stuff and anti- stuff. The anti- stuff didn't impress me. It was full of misinformation and slants. However, the neutral scientific stuff was more than enough to make me realize that Mormons are taught things that are simply untrue. The credibility of JS was seriously questionable. And what I have learned since had done little to convince me otherwise. I still believe in God and the Spirit---it is just NOT the MORMON God, or anyone elses for that matter. My God has never told me that he organizes religions, nor has he told me there is any such thing an YOUR Satan. The God I believe in requires me to use my rational thought and difficult study and research to KNOW anything other than that He exists. He doesn't allow me to make claims of KNOWING things thru the Spirit other than that He exists. So, my point is your claim that only Mormonism can make one truely happy is a falsehood, just another tactic to try to attract people and to justify things that I think, most mormons, deep down suspect are not really true. That is why they claim to KNOW so much--they are trying to drown out the little voice of logic that says, "mormonism claims too much".

Peace---as a matter of fact I have. The answer was loud and clear. It was "use the mental faculties I have given you and you will discover the truth." I did, and have discovered that JS was a fraud, that the BoM is fiction inspite of all the good things that are taught in the Mormon church, it is really no different than a miriad of other religions---all with their good and bad points, but inventions of some charismatic leader of some sort. That is what the Spirit testifies to me.

Peace--truely beautiful. Totally contrary to what the mormon church actually teaches, but whatever floats your boat.

Peace, Hey good idea----maybe you can finally explain to church members how the story of Adam and Eve proves there was no organic evolution.

Joe--finally someone who can think straight.

There is nothing to prove if you are lying...which you are. And millions of people receiving a confirmation....that is the same thing as a strong 'witness'...proof powerfully working for millions. You shouldn't believe me....ask God...and believe Him.

There is a big difference between men and prophets. Men who write historical stuff or scientific stuff don't claim to have received it from God. So your comparison and logic just don't work. Gosh...you do get lost alot don't you? You are so busy twisting things this way and that you don't see how silly it all appears to me.

Peace-- I can see that you have no clue as to what "circular reasoning" means, let me elaborate-------- trying to prove the truth of the source by refering to the authority of the source itself. Do you get it now? DNA--sorry pal, but it is you that needs to research DNA. Even if a group of people have several different mixtures of origins, their genetics reveals markers that are unique to the area of the world they each originate from. Geneticists can identify the markers that appear in Native Americans who have some european ancestors. They can also identifify markers from areas like the middle east. Middle eastern markers don't exist in native american tribes with the frequency that they would if Native Americans had ancient roots in the middle east. The markers that do exist in bounty are those from Siberia and Northwester Asia. It has not been hard to show that all the american tribes originated from Siberia. On top of that, the linquistic markers show the same thing. It is you that needs to do your research on this subject. JS---there is ample evidence that JS lied about practicing polygamy. He denied it publically and practiced it privately. In fact, when the Nauvoo Expositor threadened to publish that fact, JS had the press destroyed. It's an historical fact. Likewise, it is established by actual court document that JS tried to con people by claiming to be able to find buried treasure with his "seer" stone. One can hardly claim that JS wasn't capable of deception. He also claimed to be able to translate Egyptian, which also turned out to be a lie. You seem to venerate BLIND faith (the "I feel it so it must be true" thing) to a new level. God gave you a brain. Use it.

It's true. The Lord maketh the Sun to shine on both the righteous and wicked. But there are somethings which are predicated upon the 'power' withwhich you obey the laws... It is cause effect, but with more factors than you might notice from the outward appearance... The Lord rewards by what's in the heart. If there are doubts when one pays, or one pays with reticence or regret... the reward will not be at all, or at least not the same as the reward for someone who obeyed this law of tithing with a willing heart filled with the love of God, having confidence inpower.... ....It isn't what you see and judge...it is what the Lord sees and judges... Then factor in the Wisdom of God....who sees all the needs (spiritually) of His children...and you may see a test of endurence and faith...which can also be a blessing. Of course with this last factor you will have those who will jump on it and say....hey...you are just using that as an escape claus.... But then we can come back and say...you don't understand the big picture...and you will come back and say.....yadayadayada... It get's old. The bottom line is....some of us really do know the way God thinks and His grand purposes for this life. It isn't about a simple black and white, one dimensional scheme. It is very intriquet and INDIVIDUAL programs for each of us...so that we can 'grow' and progress as much as possible. This is like a class at school only more individualized, where you must stretch your own powers... The Lord gives us all exactly what we deserve, require, and desired from this life's experience. This life isn't about this life....it is about the life you had before you came here and the life you will have after you leave.

Peace---millions of people get "spiritual confirmations" of all kinds of non-sense. Does that make it all true? By the way, you can't prove me wrong....and that is the point. So why should I believe what you say?