Snow

How, specifically does he do that?

Sorry Vort - I apologize. I've been using the word dogma in a certain way here for years and take for granted that everyone knows specifically what intend it to mean. I used in the sense of something that is asserted as true (in this case a religious tenet or belief) for which there is no proof. Yes - that is my belief, but there is no proof, of course, which gets back to what I apparently explained poorly. Today is Priesthood we had a lesson on the Law of Chastity and the instructor went on about the power of Satan. I made my same objections as I do here and you can imagine that didn't go over so well. People generally don't believe in magical invisible beings unless they are "their" magical invisible beings.

Yes - but no more than your facts. 1. I've never met a Mormon who didn't hold JS or any of the prophets, modern and ancient is reverence so I wonder if the people you were talking to were really Mormon. 2. The 2nd commandment says no such things. You can check by reading the 2nd commandment... if you know where to find it. 3. I taught Sunday School today and discussed 5 prophets, in addition to the main topic - God - not one of them named Joseph.

So the lesson went very well today. Thanks again.

Uh - no, you didn't.

I said "That Satan is a real influence is a purely dogmatic belief - something for which there is no proof." Dogma being something that is believed for which there is not proof. You claimed that is false statement. Your inability to offer proof makes the truth of my point absolutely clear. If there was proof, you'd tell us what it is. Frankly it seems like you don't understand the nature of dogma. You seem to think that dogma is one thing and truthful reality is another thing mutually exclusive of dogma.

We don't know what really happened - all we know is the case scenario presented in OP, which may or may not be correct, but that what we have to go on. The guy had morality issues of such significance, he was being disciplined. The girl claimed she was told to stay away from the guy. People seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the girl actually was told to stay away and that they person that said that to her was someone who had an ethical duty not to tell her to stay away from him. Was the High Council the only ones who knew the guy was wild? Likely not. People develop reputations from people that know them. The advice to stay away could have come from anywhere. Regardless - the guy is completely responsible for his own activity. He's an agent unto himself. People choose. However - I think many/most of know from experience that some Mormons are a bunch of self-righteous gossip hounds and don't understand the meaning of discretion... here I am thinking about some of the nonsense I've heard discussed in Ward Councils in various wards. Unfortunately, the gospel does't cure everyone of their ugly habits.

I don't know what that means No one likes to have others think ill of them but I don't form my sense of self worth off what other people say to me in passing and I don't makes decisions about being active based on people saying nice things to me. We know, in this story, why the guy was disciplined. I'd advise my daughter to avoid (not date him) too. If she was honest with the guy - fine.

How did she do wrong? The guy sounds like he couldn't keep his pants on. Telling the young ladies to stay away from him is probably sound advice. Be honest with the kid about why you won't spend time with him is, well, honest.

Gee you sound pouty tonight. Prove it.

Take a look at the start-up time, weight, size, and battery life and built-in 3G connectivity of your average wintel laptop compared to your average iPad. Laptops and desktops and smart phones all have their uses and advantages. We have 4 laptops in the family so I like them too, but iPads have a freedom, convenience and user experience you can't get anywhere else. Afterall, there's a reason Apple sales are exploding while wintel sales are stagnant or dropping.

I agree with your point. Not everyones wants and needs are served by the same platform.

It drains battery life and hogs CPU resources. Flash for Windows is bad but Flash for OS X is horrid. Apple got so frustrated waiting for Adobe to deliver a quality Flash experience that it threw it's weight behind HTML 5 and today Flash presence on the web is a fraction of what it was 3 years ago. Serves em right for taking things for granted in fast changing IT world.

Thank you for the research. I've been a little unhappy with the way I was presenting some of my recent lessons and was a bit stymied on how to proceed this week. Because of some questions that have come up in recent weeks I decided to spend the first half of tomorrow's lesson talking about now the NT came to be canonized. For the 2nd half of the lesson I have to pack in 2 Corinthians and post has helping me to clarify how I wanted tackle it. I also be using directly some of your stuff here on the overview and the sorrowful letter. thanks

Uh - someone chose to become inactive because he believed that someone had said something to someone else... and you think we should blame someone?

You are so right. You should be the one to make decisions on man's salvation - not God.

This is a great example of the pointlessness of arguing dogma. That Satan is a real influence is a purely dogmatic belief - something for which there is no proof. I make some argument that the devil is not relevant, hence divine intervention not necessary and then you take that as evidence that divine intervention actually occurs.

If what way am I made better off by believing in a functional, present, devil? Let's say we both see a sexy lady of questionable morals. I avoid the temptation by recalling my marital vows and family commitments. You avoid the temptation by countering the devil through Christ's power. What's the difference?

That sounds odd. First, I don't know any anti-mormons who frequent this site. Second, some of us buy lots of books from Cedar Fort - me for example so, if "Cedar Fort" were to want to post on message boards, this is probably the exact kind of place they'd want to visit, don't you think? Maybe I have one of your books. What are the names of what you have written?

Like I said - my questions are strictly serious. You believe that the devil is acting against you by manipulating your family and your computer, so you have directly experience with him. I would very much like to know how he does what you think he is doing.

I'm not sure what I've said that you think it is rude but I guess I might have been poking some fun at you. How do suppose people ought to respond if someone claims that invisible magical creatures are manipulating their family and their electronic gadgetry? I can assure you however that my questions were strictly serious. How do you think the devil is controlling your family and messing up your computer? Those are fair questions aren't they?

So you give advice about marriage relating to polygamy but you are acquainted with polygamy itself? How many of Joseph Smith's wives do you think had their husband killed leaving Independence?

To be clear... You believe that the devil in some fashion has taken control of your family members and in some way compelled them annoy you; and also that the devil has the ability to manipulate electronic equipment or electronic data and has done so to you computer. Seems to me that in order to enter into your family members and control them against you, the devil must be some kind of spirit. On the other hand, to mess with your computer, it seems like he must have some sort of body, with hands and fingers. But he must also be physic in order to know you password ---- I mean if he had eyes to see you enter the password into the computer yourself, then you would notice him standing over your shoulder... but if he were a spirit, then he wouldn't even have eyes to see you enter the password. Seems like a real problem.

Okay - so here's the question. Do you think that I will take geology lessons, let alone economics lessons, from someone who thinks the earth is hollow and believes that the way to prove it is through the Bible?

I trust that you have some evidence that Jesus was multi-lingual???