Urstadt

I don't know how much knowledge I can contribute. But, I'd like to share my thoughts on the matter in the interest of offering a new perspective. The Catholic church says that the Hebrew translation of "adam" is simply "man". They have taken this to mean that Adam was not actually a person but more of a symbolic allegory of man. Another fire fueling this perspective of theirs is the evidence that supports (not proves) evolution. One can see all the bones laid out that demonstrate the evolutionary progression of man at the Smithsonian Institute. A third element of the confusion, I suspect, is the symbolism in the Garden. We know that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was real but also had symbolic meaning, as well as others elements of the account. So, I suspect that some people take the idea of some elements having symbolism to mean the whole thing is symbolic. Those are three sources that I can account for as possibilities for the notion of Adam being purely allegorical. However, as has already been pointed out by a couple people here, this would go against the teachings and revelations of Joseph Smith. He revealed that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri. If it was purely allegorical, then the place doesn't actually exist and Joseph couldn't reveal its location. The Bible tells us it is in between 2 rivers, the Tigris and Euphrates, which would place it in either Turkey, Syria, or Iraq. But, the Bible has been tampered with. In the older days of the old and new testament, people didn't know about the America's. I could just see scribes hearing of a land that was not known to their world and changing the wording to place it somewhere more familier. I am not saying that's what happened, merely presenting an idea. So, if we know the bible has been tampered with, and evidence from archeological digs is merely supporting theories without empirically proving them, theories made by man (and many, not all, scientists are athiests), one must look for a more definitive source. That source, to me, has got to be Joseph Smith. So, for me, Joseph Smith says he talked to Adam and knows the location of the Garden of Eden, Adam has got to be real, then.

I will do my best to provide some kind of a response. But, I am also trying to back off. Your response, TFP, was a little more aggressive than I would have liked. Perhaps you didn't mean that way? But, in the interest of being careful, I am going to continue to be mindful of my own actions. But your post does beg for a response. So, I will do my best while trying to be brief. To start off, I do have a testimony of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Joseph Smith is a prophet and the church is led today by prophetic revelation. I hope no one fears otherwise about me. :) Secondly, just paint a bigger picture here, my mind wanders. It's what makes me an effective counselor. And, I administer counseling the way Elder Oaks said in an official statement about the Church's position on counseling: which is to use evidenced-based approaches and to think critically and openly, more importantly, dialogically and contextually. I am not always saying that I am right. And, I certainly apologize to the people of LDS.net if I came across as sounding like the authority on the situation. As you accurately pointed out, that isn't my place. (I only ask that you remember your own counsel when you pass judgment on Kate's behaviors or my personal likening of the scriptures unto myself). So, as I say things on here, I am merely letting my mind wander, attempting to think critically, take in all of the facts. I'm merely exploring. In counseling we refer to this as dialogically relating to others. It's my best attempt at being Christ-like, which I wish I was better at. However, if this is not the time, or members on here would rather me take this some place else, I am more than happy to refrain as it is not my wish to upset anybody. As for some of your comments about comparing history, the Constitution, or sports teams to the church, your rules of logic are sound when you challenge my comparisons. But, any logitician will be the first to tell you that the philosophical backdrop or theoretical standpoint being articulated in such analogies cannot always be challenged with the rules and mathematical formulas of logic. They can only be ascertained via sustained, ongoing moral discourse, which is why there are different forms of logic that would adequately explain/justify my comparisons. I was trying to make a theoretical point (Read Charles Taylor, To Follow A Rule) with my analogies that would require further discourse. Anyway. I look forward to conversing with the folks here at lds.net on other issues. :)

I fear you two are being a little too judgmental. The way I see it, although her actions weren't always peaceful (in the sense of maintaining order), she was trying to remain true to herself. Honesty is so important. Let's not forget that if we had lost to Great Britain in the 1780's, Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Henry, etc go back to Britain to be hanged/beheaded publicly. But, they were doing what they believed was right. Now, if you say that's because they were inspired by Heavenly Father, I am right there with. The Constitution that the church claims is inspired gives people the right to protest. Kate was just doing what a document inspired by Heavenly Father gives her the right to do. History is filled with affirmative action, protests, and civil rights activations that were at one point considered wrong and then later revered. Let's wait and see what happens "later" in this situation. Yet, they take away the tools, gifts, and blessings she would need to stay afloat. As a clinical mental health counselor, that makes absolutely no sense! "Go get help! But, we're going to take therapy, rehab, counseling, and medical care away from you--but go get help!" Meanwhile, the person is left wondering, "Where?" Yep. I am not saying I know the right way to handle this, but I can certainly think of some viable alternatives. Furthermore, when Desean Jackson was "let go" by the Eagles this offseason, at first people considered it the right move: "Get your house in order, Philly." But, soon thereafter, other analysts came on saying that this was merely a showing that Chip Kelly was too inexperienced and lacked the versatility to deal with a wide array of personalities. Examples of Parsells with Dallas, Bellichek at New England, and What's-his-face at Oakland came to the forefront of the discussion as coaches/organizations capable to handling the Owens's and Moss's by providing the necessary structure, discpline, and fortitude to manage personalities. I wonder if, right now, the church is merely Chip Kelly. One may say that isn't the church's job. To that I would say two things: 1) it wasn't Parsell's or Bellicheck's either. 2) They have stewardship over our souls, so like it or not, yes it is their job. It is too harsh. However, it was mistake on her part to not show up to the final disciplinary hearing. Actually, it was worst than a mistake, it was downright foolish. But, members of her website being asked to hand over their recommends, now that I can't get past. Right now, that's me.

I just wanted to piggy back off of this for discussion's sake only. Following this logic, single-cell organisms such as bacterium would then have to have a spirit. As far as we know, there has never been any revelation decreeing that single-celled organisms have a spirit. I would find it safe to conclude that they don't have a spirit and therefore, if the preceding statement were to hold true, a zygote could be alive without a spirit. Another monkey wrench I find curious (and nothing more) is the possibility that the zygote get's life from the spirit of the host, the mother. Just a thought I had. I hope it contributes to the discussion. If not, then thank you for the your thought, Seminarysnoozer. It was fun for me to ponder on.

My mission President, Walter E. Hill, obtained this answer from the General Authorities during his tenure as President of our mission in response to questions we had for him as missionaries. He instructed us that all spirits miscarried or aborted prior to birth return to the pre-existence and "receive another assignment" (President Hill quoting the General Authorities).

That.

Fiction: The Third Degree by Greg Iles Non-fiction: Sources of the Self Church reading: The Continuous Atonement

This was my first thought when I read the OP. Thanks, Backroads.

I've been to a handful of Grizzles games but not for a while now. I am a huge hockey fan and have a few favorite teams.

Glad to see you return to the church. :)

I'm new, too but likewise have a significant cultural affinity toward the church. I appreciate your wording there. Look forward to chatting more some time. :)

I'm Urstadt. I'm in my early 30's, engaged to be married to a recent convert, and live in the more sunny/warmer parts of the southwestern US. I work as a clinical mental health counselor but I am more of a philosopher than I am a therapist. I have been a member my whole life. I like sports, music, outdoor activities, reading philosophy, guncrafting, video gaming, and being with my family. I tend to challenge a lot of what the church says and the standards but I always come back to my testimony: Joseph Smith is a prophet, the Book of Mormon is the Word of God (in companionship with the Bible), and this is the Lord's church on the earth today. I look forward to good times on here and meeting you all.