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Just want to point out that I feel like discussing evidence of a God is a different thread topic. I'll admit though that I didn't stay perfectly on topic either.

There are additional references where various persons were sent on missions to teach the gospel to the Lamanites. But you are right, the term "Lamanite" is vague hundreds of years after the fact.

D&C 54:8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.

*crosses fingers* (for luck)

If I was in the military, how good of a missionary could I be if the people I teach knew I killed people? Sinners teach people all the time.

Oh I care about believing in true things. What does not bother me is you not believing that what I believe is true. That's your prerogative. I may not believe what I believe if I had not experienced what I have experienced. So, it would be illogical for me to expect you to believe what I believe without having your own experiences that are similar to my own. I believe that you are capable of having personal relationship with God, but that's something that you would have to decide that you want yourself in your own time. But seeing as you don't believe in the existence of such a being, I don't expect you to go on a wild goose chase. So, here we sit at a stalemate.. agreeing to disagree

I definitely agree. But based on my personal experiences, I believe it is so. And not being able to "prove" it does not bother me in the slightest. That's mostly God's problem. I share my experiences and thoughts and do as God asks and expect him to take care of most of the rest.

I can't. I can no more prove that my personal experiences determine truth than I can prove that I am not dreaming (think.. The Matrix). But my personal experience is all I have to go on. Its like... if you had never seen an Aurora Borealis, and cameras don't exist. I cannot prove to you that Aurora Borealis exists. I can tell you all about it... What it looked like. Maybe even where when and how I saw it. But unless you go and see it for yourself, you have just my word to go on. Maybe I made it up. Maybe its just a figment of my imagination. But I can invite you to go and see. Maybe you go and don't see. Maybe you didn't see it when you looked. Maybe you did see it... but maybe you think its a figment of your own imagination. Maybe you see it differently than me. None of this changes the fact that I have seen. And I can invite you to go and see. And that is all I can do. Just because I cannot prove it exists, does not therefore mean it does not exist, or that I have not experienced it for myself. And this goes for more things than God. Our entire perception of life is this way. Does this mean nothing is real? Not necessarily. But I have felt God's touch in my life. And as I have done as I believe he asks, I have become happier. I have increased in my trust of him. Is it a figment of my imagination? Maybe. But it makes me happy, and I believe God to be a solid basis for my morality. So thus I trek onward in my belief. And I one day hope to join God in heaven, and one day fully understand absolute truth and morality.

I guess my point is. I personally feel like I am probably more useful as a live missionary than as a dead martyr. If I am prompted to become a martyr then sure. But I am not an especial witness of Christ (apostle), so I'm going to work under the assumption that i'm better left alive unless prompted otherwise.

I can provide as much evidence as to the morality of God as I can for you or I. Which is none. Morality must have a basis. My basis of assumption is that God is moral. This assumption is based on my personal relationship and communication with him on a daily basis through prayer and the light of Chris. I believe in God. I trust God. I believe that his "all knowing"ness makes it so that he knows whats moral, and I also believe that he is perfectly moral, and that I am here on earth to learn to be moral with his help. You must obtain your own evidence by developing your own relationship with him. Other than that I have no other evidence for you. As I said earlier... God IS my moral basis. If you reject that basis, then you reject my morality.

Valid

I take a lot of things in the old testament with a bucket of salt. I also don't consider the JS translation to be all encompassing.. just a weak band-aid for hundreds of years of alterations. And as I said, maybe God knows something I don't know. Limiting how long a beating lasts sounds at least like an improvement (slightly less immoral). I don't know why polygamy was moral for a while either but I know God is smarter than me.

Yeah... and he repented and appeared to Joseph Smith and gave him the Aaronic Preisthood.

Probably depends on the situation... But I would have no problem lying if I felt the need. One false word to someone that has got me under duress is not going to change what's in my heart.

Just because someone claims to do something for God's will, doesn't actually make it God's will. I know you realize this but. As I said above, that's why conscience/light-of-christ is an important part of God's plan.

I do not know the mind of God. I do completely underhand why certain things are wrong and certain things are right. I do believe that I have a personal relationship with God. I do believe that God is Moral. I do believe that God is infinitely more intelligent than me. You are correct that morality is complicated. And I would like to cite that as evidence that we need someone smarter than us to help us sort through the complicatedness. This is not to say that it is completely beyond my capacity to make moral decisions on my own. But it does mean that I need to accept the fact that the reason that I choose to do things may not be the same reason that God wants me to do them. But I can double check my logic and my final decision against the light of Christ (comparable to what we ofttimes call our "moral conscience") and determine if it is right, or if it is wrong. I can read and logically agree with "A Modest Proposal", but when I check with the light of Christ whether it is moral, I get a definitive no. Is this because God is bossy and just likes to tell us what to do? No. It's because God is infinitely wiser than us. As far as death and pain... As I said earlier, death is not the end. It is the beginning of the rest of eternity. I figure that Death itself is not immoral. Neither is pain itself immoral. Neither discomfort. Inflicting them on others usually is.. but, all 3 are a natural part of life. And there are things we are here to learn about all 3. The pain and death of Christ in the atonement is not immoral. In fact it was necessary. I'd venture to say that pain and death are a necessary part of all of our existences. As far as slavery goes, I highly doubt that God actually condones that, but that's based mostly on my own sense of morality. If the scriptures say he does, I'd probably venture to guess that it is either a manipulation of scribes, or God knows something I don't. As far as "Hell" goes... While more my personal opinion than doctrine, it is my personal understanding that the "torment of the afterlife" in Mormon doctrine is largely self inflicted. We knowing that we decided that we do not want to live with God. Knowing that we could be happier. But also knowing in our hearts that we would not have done anything differently. And this is not because we missed our opportunity. Not because we are locked out of heaven and happiness. But because eternal happiness is naturally contingent upon our own morality. God does not want us to be moral because he is a Thug. God wants us to be moral because morality brings happiness. There is no other way to be happy than to be moral. So by choosing to be immoral, we choose to limit our happiness. Fear of Hell and damnation is one of the weakest reasons to be moral. And it does not make you a better person. It makes you a good robot. A slightly happier robot. But still a robot.

I'd also like to clarify that we aren't left completely in the dark regarding God's will. We are all given the light of Christ that we may discern between good an evil. " For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil " " Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ. " Plus the Holy Ghost (For those that are baptized).

Anyway... I won't speak for Godless, but, I agree with you that a self-serving individual can do many moral things. But, only inasmuch as the things he does coincide with God's will, whether that's the reason he/she does it or not. (speaking from a God's will defines morality perspective).

Neither of us said that being self-serving is necessarily immoral. And all I said that the survival of one's species is not inherently self-serving. Once again it just depends on your moral basis. But now reading @Godless 's post again, I realize that he was talking within a context in which socializing is important, so my comment seems out of place.

A purely self-serving moral perspective does not necessarily even care about the survival of one's species.

This ^

Says you lol. Besides, I watch a lot of scifi.... I could EASILY hedge up all inconsistencies by presuming that God, being all powerful... has the powers to make things and people, disappear, time travel, and instantly teleport. But that would be another thread entirely, and I don't have the time for that.

Who says my hypothetical has to be consistent?

*rolls eyes* I did not claim that it was a fairy tale... I did not claim that it did take place on another planet... I did not claim that Moroni lied... Simply put... someone could come up to me with thousands of pieces of "evidence" that the Book of Mormon is historically inaccurate, and I could easily still accept the Book of Mormon as true. The logic and science of men is incredibly inaccurate.

Sure, but my point was, I don't personally find the historical accuracy that consequential. Heck, for all I care, the entirety of the contents could have taken place on another planet similar to ours that exploded and a meteor fragment from that planet containing the gold plates could have landed in New York... And I would still believe it.